Arkadia
from Australia is reading The Wasp Factory by Iain BanksJanuary 7, 2012 - 6:24am
Putting the class/price discussion aside for a moment (though I'll agree slightly cheaper prices = me taking more of them, but I guess that's basic math), there are a couple of things I'd like to see on LR that I'd better bring up before I forget.
Live chat. Yep, I know this was brought up, and shot down before. I know we have the IRC chat, which is always dead. I know since it's dead it might seem like there's no point bringing an official LR chat to the site. Buuut. I was browsing through The Cult yesterday, and noticed how the Cult features the little box on the left that shows how many people are in the chat room. This lets people know that not only does a chat exist, but shows when there are people talking in it, which encourages more people to join. I used to hang out on The Cult and the more people in the chat, the more people joined. I feel the LR community has the potential to be (and possibly already is) more closely-knit than The Cult, so a functioning and welcoming on-site chat would be amazing for getting to know each other better and strengthening the community. Additionally it might prove to be a valuable advertising tool -- at The Cult, I talked to people in the chat about the workshop subscription before actually paying for it, because I wanted to know paying member's opinions on it. I saw quite a few other people do the same. Some people find making forum threads intimidating -- a quick 'in and out' is much easier for them. It'd also help people curious about taking classes -- they can get in the chat, ask if anyone has taken LR courses and if they were worth it, then go forth and buy.
Seems like a win-win situation to me. Is it so hard to just rip off The Cult chat function?
The other chat option is one featured on a lot of forums I browse, and Facebook too -- the bottom left 'friend chat' function. I assume everyone knows what I mean when I say 'Facebook-style chat bar'. A lot of ghetto forums I visit have this chat function, so I assume it wouldn't be out of reach for LR to implement?
Anyway, just two suggestions.
I'd also really like to see a way to get to the last page of a thread from the main forum page. The regular forum goers have likely seen most of the first pages and I hate to think of how much time I waste throughout the day waiting for that extra first page to load before I can click the 'last post' button and see who posted after me. Something is simple as a small double arrow after the thread name would be very much appreciated.
I did have another suggestion but it's slipped my mind. I'll be back!
Fylh
from from from is reading is from is reading is reading is reading reading is readingJanuary 7, 2012 - 12:50pm
One of the things we're trying to do with LitR is to develop it more and more into a community with strong social networking features. Bear in mind that at the very top level, we hold frequent discussions on our priorities and what we want to implement in the near future. It's just a matter of being able to programme it properly within a reasonable amount of time — along with budgeting issues, technical issues and the fact that I'm in the UK, Mark and Dennis and Kirk are in the States, etc, so that we have to time things properly. It's a lot of planning that goes into it.
I like the idea of a chat function, but we need to find a good, maintainable way to do it.
Mark
from Lexington, Kentucky is reading The Chronology of WaterJanuary 7, 2012 - 12:48pm
Ellis? Litreactor has ties with him it seems. Although I think he said he doesn't like teaching. And the cost would be thousands. -Jay SJ
We've asked him. Twice, I think. He's paradoxically shy and self-effacing regarding the experitise he'd have to share with anyone. Or else, he's just not big on teaching and he's very polite in how he says 'No.' I suppose he could have a change of heart at some point, though, so who knows? It's possible.
And the cost, if it ever did happen, would not be thousands per student. We don't have an unlimited pricing model that escalates like a mercury thermometer clutched in a sweaty palm. In other words, our pricing is not hypersensitive to the perceived reputation or demand surrounding an author.
Top-ranked authors who easily bust six figures each year from their writing alone are only going to teach here if they love to teach and will accept what for them would be a token payment or honorarium.
What about Tom Spanbauer? Any chance he could teach the Dangerous Writing seminar here? I don't know that much about him, but he taught Chuck didn't he? -PopeyeDoyle
Yes, he did. And as far as I know he still teaches privately, in Portland. The last I heard, though, he was maybe stepping back from expanded teaching commitments for personal reasons, but I got that kind of second hand. And it's information that's probably two years out of date. If Tom would like to teach here, we'd certainly be glad to have him.
Mark
from Lexington, Kentucky is reading The Chronology of WaterJanuary 7, 2012 - 8:56pm
There's a YouTube video of Ellis somewhere saying he's not hot on the idea of teaching.
Well, he's also told us the same thing pretty directly, when we've inquired. He's been there, more in the traditional liberal arts college kind of setting, I believe, and it wasn't his bag. From what I can gather, he didn't feel right in that role. Thing is, there's so much overlap between his readership and our own demographic, that his name gets suggested every two or three months like we've never thought of it. Which, I'm not complaining. I understand it. But everyone should acknowledge that being a great writer and being a great writing teacher are two different things. A few gifted souls, yes, are both. But an author you admire who doesn't enjoy teaching shouldn't be roped into it and might not even be good at it. In fact, if quietly loathing the experience, probably won't be all that good at it. I've never worked with Bret and I'm not saying this about him, I'm saying this about every big name author you can think of. They aren't automatically gifted teachers and the best writing teachers aren't always big name authors. It's a strike of blue lightning when someone is world class at both.
averydoll
from Kentucky is reading Lisey's Story by Stephen KingJanuary 7, 2012 - 10:10pm
What I read did not have beastiality, but I wouldn't doubt it. I didn't read all three of them. I know there was a part where they used people as horses.
EricWojo
from Livonia, Michigan is reading The Satanic VersesJanuary 7, 2012 - 10:12pm
Summarizing what @Mark has said above,there are those who do and those who can teach. It is rare to find someone who can (or who is willing to do) both. Fault neither. And now I step down from the pedestal of wisdom. On with the show.
Mark
from Lexington, Kentucky is reading The Chronology of WaterJanuary 7, 2012 - 11:13pm
Summarizing what @Mark has said above, there are those who do and those who can teach. It is rare to find someone who can (or who is willing to do) both. Fault neither. And now I step down from the pedestal of wisdom. On with the show.
I guess we're pretty close to the same line of reasoning here. I definitely don't fault or ridicule anyone for knowing where to draw the line regarding their own commitments. But there's maybe a bit more to my line of thinking than easily summarized.
One thing I'd like to convey is that a great writing teacher is always a competent writer, but not necessarily a famous one. Fame has an element of luck and timing and sometimes even aggressiveness built into it. Competency is built on practice.
A corollary point is that a famous writer (especially one who's esteemed around here) could just about always be at least competent as a writing teacher, if finding the time for it. But to be a great writing teacher, you need more than masterful skills as a writer. You need insight into your own process and the ability to communicate and make explicit what works for you and why. If you're an instinctual writer, there's a chance you need to think about your process a little more consciously than you'd like. There's a chance you need to be willing to share things that a childlike part of yourself clings to selfishly, like they're trade secrets. And there's a chance you haven't examined which of your opinions about writing are good for any student who comes near you, and which things are more superstitious or idiosyncratic.
Sometimes great writers are a little narcissistic or so far down the rabbit hole of their latest manuscript that they can't be found. Great writing teachers are generous, tuned into the needs of others, great at modeling out their own processes instead of just striking a pose and hoping something good rubs off on you. And the best teachers are genuinely concerned for the students' success, sometimes put their own writing projects on hold, temporarily, while helping someone, and probably have a strong base of teaching experience. In teaching, like everything else, you learn by doing. A great writing teacher can be your coach and your best friend, just like a great agent can.
Top competitive pro athletes often have coaches and trainers who've never struck as much of a public figure as the celebrity competitor has. And this is true not only as they're coming up or getting discovered, it's often true well after the athlete becomes a big public figure. They still rely on the expertise of people living quieter lives than themselves.
There's an obvious appeal to getting a writing class with someone whose books you enjoy reading or maybe even aspire to emulate. And we do our best to give you some of that here. But I have to caution people away from the glamorous and simplistic idea that an author's public stature or celebrity bears any kind of neat or predictable relationship with how someone ranks as an instructor.
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryJanuary 10, 2012 - 10:01am
Honestly, it wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit if we included a bit of a softer genre, as well. It would be neat if we could get someone like Stephen Erikson to teach a class.
PopeyeDoyle
from Rio Grande Valley, TX is reading This Is How You Lose Her, by Junot DiazJanuary 10, 2012 - 10:36am
Also, this might sound lame - but I'd really love something like a prose class. My favorite part of the Clevenger class was the last lecture which was all about editing and prose. I'd love a class that focused solely on the stylistic aspects of writing. Maybe it could be taught by a poet or something like that. James Salter would be nice as well...
David Hanson
from Connecticut is reading Incredibly pulpy fantasy and sci-fiJanuary 10, 2012 - 2:25pm
I had a professor at the University of Connecticut, Tom Deans, who focused solely on the impact of style on the reader. Truly an eye opening class for me. Not sure if anyone else would be interesting in taking a fiction focused class by a professor (ie not an established fiction writer). I could probably link up with him if other people would be interested in that type of class.
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryJanuary 13, 2012 - 7:17pm
I don't know if anybody has mentioned this before. I think there should be some that people who review longer stories can be awarded more points. Some of the stories I've posted and plan to post are monsters and it's not exactly fair to expect people to put the same effort into 5500 words as they do into 2500. Conversely, it also doesn't seem that some of the longer stories get quite the attention as the shorter ones (I'm not going to do a spreadsheet on that to prove anything, I'm just stating it). It seems the situation could be improved by some additional incentive.
Of course, there is a great deal of potential difficulty with making this work. Like everybody entering their stories as the higher word-count stories so they can give out 5 stars instead of 3 because it seems like the "nice thing to do", and soon 5 stars becomes the default for everything. Is there a way to prevent this? Booting stories with improperly posted word counts? But that would require maybe a lot of oversight. Size category could be assigned by file size, maybe?
Anyway, that's my two cents. Probably entirely in self-interest, for that moment when I hit "Post" on a 15,000 word literary juggernaut. Because I'll want somebody to read it.
jacks_username
from Louisville, Kentucky is reading Flashover by Gordon HighlandJanuary 18, 2012 - 3:37pm
Yeah so has anyone noticed the home page where it shows the actions? Updates of threads and who logs in. When it says somebody has logged in 20 times in a row, this is the site messing up and that person has to clear the cookies and cache to fix the problem.
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsJanuary 18, 2012 - 10:00pm
I'm still kind of interested in that David Corbett class depite the big price. I think it's a reasonable price for what's being offered, I just have doubts that the kind of people aware of this site are able to drop that kind of money. What would that class be like if only 2 or 3 people ended up enrolled? Has anyone here said fuck it and signed up? I'm still considering it only because I'm lucky enough to have absolutely no obligations with my sorry life that would stop me and I jump at any chance to spend money irresponsibly. I haven't read David Corbett's fiction but have read his thoughts and heard him talk around the internet and his thoughts on the craft are genuinely fascinating.
I'm one of those that's been dying for Jack Ketchum to come back or for Joe Lansdale. With the amount of activity he does on twitter and his blog I think Joe Hill might be interested in teaching but doubt he has the time. I wouldn't mind a class from someone who aims for the big L literary stuff instead of genre, but then again I would have no idea what focus they would have for an intensive. Steve Erickson could be interesting, Jim Shepard, George Saunders, Stewart O'Nan. None of those guys I think would be up for it actually.
Dave
from Texas is reading constantlyJanuary 20, 2012 - 4:49pm
Well, if anyone will buy my left nut, I'd be happy to sign up for the Corbett class. Apparently my kidney wasn't in good enough condition to sell even on the black market.
Kirk
from Pingree Grove, IL is reading The Book Of The New SunJanuary 20, 2012 - 6:36pm
Yeah so has anyone noticed the home page where it shows the actions? Updates of threads and who logs in. When it says somebody has logged in 20 times in a row, this is the site messing up and that person has to clear the cookies and cache to fix the problem.
I'm working on that, thankfully it doesn't hit a lot of people, but Facebook basically made some changes to their login SDK and didn't bother to tell anyone. It's been harder to pin down but I think the solution has finally revealed itself.
I'm still kind of interested in that David Corbett class depite the big price. I think it's a reasonable price for what's being offered, I just have doubts that the kind of people aware of this site are able to drop that kind of money.
It's currently around half way sold out. So there will certainly be more than 2-3 people in there :)
I want a definiton for the genres. I know some of them, but I don't know them all. How would you define:
Wikipedia is no longer blacked-out my friend. :-D You should find thorough descriptions of each there. I know when we included them, we verified that they all were represented.
aliensoul77
from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall.January 21, 2012 - 2:57am
For Bryan
absurdist--The clock struck thirteen and the looney birds were out in full force again, Zooey decided he would call the trombone police and send them out to play net-basket again.
adventure--Ian entered the tomb and rubbed the jewels in his hand. The cave started to crumble around him and he found himself trapped in a large crypt.
biographical--Four score and seven years ago...
bizarro--One day my penis told me it wanted to run for President.
cyberpunk--Bryan inserted the microchip into the back of his brain and entered the machine.
fantastic--Suddenly the world exploded into bright neon colors.
fantasy--The elder elf took his vorpal blade and hummed a culling song to the Rune King.
horror--Cthulhu woke after a long slumber, ready to devour the world.
literary--In the ashy air of darkness, Lilian rose and greeting the African sky with a look of wonderment. Soon I shall be a woman!
magical realism--Derek noticed that the staircase had begun speaking shortly after he was halfway up. "Pardon me?" the staircase said, "Can you get off my head?"
mystery--Amber picked up the bloody knife and hid it in her bag, her husband was dead and it was only a matter of time before the cops came. She put on her best shocked face.
narrative non-fiction--I grew up in a small town where everyone knew my name and it was well known that I came from a family of alcoholics.
noir--The spicy dame walked into my office smelling like roses and hot blood, her body had all the right kinda shapes. I tipped my hat and said, "What can I do ya for, babe?" "I need to find a killer," she said and licked her lips.
political--It was in my third year of college that I decided to run for office, I was a member of the Republican League of Students and had just led my first protest against gay marriage.
psychological--In the darkened alleyways of her mind, Shelia always wondered if Devon was real or if she made him up. She looked at the clothes on the bed and noticed they were covered in blood.
realism--The cold dry earth touches my hands and for the first time since I woke up on that beach, I realized that I had a problem with heroin.
sci-fi--The alien apocalypse was brief but in the end, mankind surrendered. Now we are all genetic hybrids who live with a double consciousness and are part of a dying species.
slipstream--In the intangible eye of fevered thought, Marcus saw the elevator move to and fro taking passengers to their destination. It was only after it hit the 30th floor that he realized he was in a 12 story building.
subversive--The prostitute was sickened by the moanings of the John but she did her job and she did it well. When he was done, he gave a loud grunt, she opened the car door and then spit his seed onto the pavement. "Five dollars," she said.
suprise me--I decided I would become the character in my story one day so I bought a gun and went to the office. The first person I shot was my secretary, she was mid-sentence when I blew her brains out. She always made lousy coffee anyway.
suspense--Toby turned the car towards the edge of the cliff and narrowly missed careening into the rocks below. The killer pursued him and he climbed out of the car and ran into the woods where he fell and sprained his ankle.
thriller--The serial killer waited in the closet and watched her undress. He waited until she was sleeping before he walked over and listened to the sounds of her breath.
transgressive--Jimmy walked into the nightclub with a self-satisfied smile on his face and felt the pills in his pocket. The club was already fresh with sluts of all shapes and sizes. He fondled the man's finger in his jacket and prepared for the evening ahead.
You're welcome, Bryan! lol
That was actually the most exhausting writing exercise I have done in awhile. Enjoy your examples! Fuck definitions!
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading Comic books and motorcycle riding guidesJanuary 24, 2012 - 2:33pm
Bumping this. those definitions should be in the 'first time submitting' page. Man, they're funny. I just went to describe a story to a friend and realized I didn't know the genre and came back to this page to figure it out.
Max Redford
from Your basement. is reading Mirrorshades: The cyberpunk anthology, Mondo 2000: Guide to life on the New Edge, Book of CthuluFebruary 1, 2012 - 7:01pm
I didn't read through all the replies here so I may repeat some stuff. Also, considering I'm new meat what I really want, really, really want, probably don't amount to a heapin' of fish guts.
First, a method for individual users to send Points to other members. Why? This makes the Points more like a virtual currency and an additional resource for the community. Members could send others Points for added "thank you" or during member hosted contest/challenges on the forums x Points are awarded the winner(s).
Private groups: Not sure if Reactor is large enough for this idea, but having private groups/circles within the larger frame of the site would be awesome. Imagine the ability of creating a private "Cyberpunk Writer's Group" and all cyberpunk writers/readers could join the group. Also, for more focused reviewing of novels a group could be set up for interested members to participate in reading of novels chapter-by-chapter.
A better organized listing of the most updated forum post might be useful too. Say a smalll box on the member's Dashboard that says "Top Recent Forum Post" and links to the last five threads created/replied too. Also, perhaps a similar feed with the most recent posted works. (This may actually already exist and I've just not noticed it.)
I'm not certain if a live chat on the site would be such a good idea. I know writer communities can have a diverse and passionate member base, and it's quite easy to see personalities clash, feelings hurt, and snowflakes damaged....having everyone in a real-time environment might require extra/added moderation from the Litreactor team.
This post is probably already getting too long for most people's attention span so I'm going to wrap it
PandaMask
from Los Angeles is reading More Than HumanFebruary 1, 2012 - 7:25pm
I would like to see monthly competitions. Select a genre and have people submit their work for that genre. Whichever submission is the best wins a mug or some sort of prize.
But I think that would just make everyone's work much harder.
Kirk
from Pingree Grove, IL is reading The Book Of The New SunFebruary 2, 2012 - 12:42am
@Max, Thanks for the feedback.
1. We discussed "gifting" points at some point. It is on my "eventually" roadmap but I do have some concerns about it as a system that could discourage interactions with newer members. It could become a big drawback.
2. We also discussed this. You're on the money, we aren't big enough for private groups yet. I want us to get that big so I can have a good reason to add them. But, and I think this is worth noting, in most cases private groups fail because let's face it. We all want attention.
3. I could add the discussion listing to the dashboard. That is a reasonable request. But if you use the tabs at the top of the discussions section, I think you'll find most of what you want. It's just not in the dasboard.
4. There are 2 boxes you can add to your dashboard. Click the "ADD A BLOCK" link on your dashboard page. "My Friends workshop submissions" which is pretty self-explanatory. And, "Help a brother out" which shows workshop subs that have yet to be reviewed. I can probably add a generic "new workshop subs" box as well.
miked
from Los Angeles is reading White NoiseFebruary 3, 2012 - 9:16pm
I've taken 3 classes at LitReactor, and they've all been very worthwhile for very different reasons. All worth the money, for sure.
Given that we're talking about what we want from future courses(I think?), I want to chime in on one particular teaching method that was useful.
As a part of Stephen Graham Jones' class, he uploaded videos of himself reading and correcting ALL of our submissions (3 short stories, all focusing on new discussion items). He also chose a published short story that he liked and took the time to upload a video of him discussing that. Watching a video of a well-spoken professor reading through student stories and critiquing each and every aspect of them was more helpful for my development than just about anything else I've been exposed to.
Granted, SGJ has the personality to effectively do that kind of thing, and that's not true for a lot of other teachers. If SGJ ever taught here again, or if another teacher offered that service, I'd sign up immediately.
Jose F. Diaz
from East Coast is reading short novels by various authors that change so much it isn't worth posting here.February 5, 2012 - 3:21pm
With anything that is already awesome, there are some of us that want it to be more awesome. I only have a couple suggestions.
1. My reply to posts in the workshop should not count as a review. It should be its own thread and not impact the count. This makes it seem like 20 people already reviewed my work when in fact I only had 3 people actually submit a review.
2. I'm a new aspiring writer. I would benefit from a $50 course where as Rian may not. I believe if you have short one week courses to really sit down with a teacher to discuss the fundamentals.
I keep reading show, don't tell, but I lack the knowledge to really see how I didn't or how to fix it in the future and get into that mindset. Just an example.
3. I want some LitR gear, stickers, something.
4. I would like to "Favorite" specific items in a discussion. Such as Aliensoul77's post about what each of the genres actually are. I know I can "favorite" the whole discussion, but I just want the one post.
5. The ability to see who is a paid member and who is not. Also who is online.
That is all I have at the moment. I hope I provided something valuable that may be utilized. As it stands this site is the best site I've been on and the people on here are knowledgeable and all seem to have a common purpose.
aliensoul77
from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall.February 5, 2012 - 6:40pm
@jfdiaz, I'm flattered you wanted to favorite that post. That was fun to write. Maybe they can post it in a special section of the site called, "Members whose smartassery becomes unintentional art". Or at least in the flash fiction thread, how they pick a winner each month, the winner should get their flash fiction posted on the website as a highlighted fiction of the month, same for the writer battles in litreactor where people have to vote on a favorite short story winner. The winner should get a free mug!
I second, third, and fourth a "DW" online class by Tom Spanbauer.
Hey Mark, odds if you were a betting man?
Putting the class/price discussion aside for a moment (though I'll agree slightly cheaper prices = me taking more of them, but I guess that's basic math), there are a couple of things I'd like to see on LR that I'd better bring up before I forget.
Live chat. Yep, I know this was brought up, and shot down before. I know we have the IRC chat, which is always dead. I know since it's dead it might seem like there's no point bringing an official LR chat to the site. Buuut. I was browsing through The Cult yesterday, and noticed how the Cult features the little box on the left that shows how many people are in the chat room. This lets people know that not only does a chat exist, but shows when there are people talking in it, which encourages more people to join. I used to hang out on The Cult and the more people in the chat, the more people joined. I feel the LR community has the potential to be (and possibly already is) more closely-knit than The Cult, so a functioning and welcoming on-site chat would be amazing for getting to know each other better and strengthening the community. Additionally it might prove to be a valuable advertising tool -- at The Cult, I talked to people in the chat about the workshop subscription before actually paying for it, because I wanted to know paying member's opinions on it. I saw quite a few other people do the same. Some people find making forum threads intimidating -- a quick 'in and out' is much easier for them. It'd also help people curious about taking classes -- they can get in the chat, ask if anyone has taken LR courses and if they were worth it, then go forth and buy.
Seems like a win-win situation to me. Is it so hard to just rip off The Cult chat function?
The other chat option is one featured on a lot of forums I browse, and Facebook too -- the bottom left 'friend chat' function. I assume everyone knows what I mean when I say 'Facebook-style chat bar'. A lot of ghetto forums I visit have this chat function, so I assume it wouldn't be out of reach for LR to implement?
Anyway, just two suggestions.
I'd also really like to see a way to get to the last page of a thread from the main forum page. The regular forum goers have likely seen most of the first pages and I hate to think of how much time I waste throughout the day waiting for that extra first page to load before I can click the 'last post' button and see who posted after me. Something is simple as a small double arrow after the thread name would be very much appreciated.
I did have another suggestion but it's slipped my mind. I'll be back!
One of the things we're trying to do with LitR is to develop it more and more into a community with strong social networking features. Bear in mind that at the very top level, we hold frequent discussions on our priorities and what we want to implement in the near future. It's just a matter of being able to programme it properly within a reasonable amount of time — along with budgeting issues, technical issues and the fact that I'm in the UK, Mark and Dennis and Kirk are in the States, etc, so that we have to time things properly. It's a lot of planning that goes into it.
I like the idea of a chat function, but we need to find a good, maintainable way to do it.
Double post.
Massive balls on cornstalks.
We've asked him. Twice, I think. He's paradoxically shy and self-effacing regarding the experitise he'd have to share with anyone. Or else, he's just not big on teaching and he's very polite in how he says 'No.' I suppose he could have a change of heart at some point, though, so who knows? It's possible.
And the cost, if it ever did happen, would not be thousands per student. We don't have an unlimited pricing model that escalates like a mercury thermometer clutched in a sweaty palm. In other words, our pricing is not hypersensitive to the perceived reputation or demand surrounding an author.
Top-ranked authors who easily bust six figures each year from their writing alone are only going to teach here if they love to teach and will accept what for them would be a token payment or honorarium.
Yes, he did. And as far as I know he still teaches privately, in Portland. The last I heard, though, he was maybe stepping back from expanded teaching commitments for personal reasons, but I got that kind of second hand. And it's information that's probably two years out of date. If Tom would like to teach here, we'd certainly be glad to have him.
Sorry. I haven't had the recent or personal contact to even guess.
There's a YouTube video of Ellis somewhere saying he's not hot on the idea of teaching.
Well, he's also told us the same thing pretty directly, when we've inquired. He's been there, more in the traditional liberal arts college kind of setting, I believe, and it wasn't his bag. From what I can gather, he didn't feel right in that role. Thing is, there's so much overlap between his readership and our own demographic, that his name gets suggested every two or three months like we've never thought of it. Which, I'm not complaining. I understand it. But everyone should acknowledge that being a great writer and being a great writing teacher are two different things. A few gifted souls, yes, are both. But an author you admire who doesn't enjoy teaching shouldn't be roped into it and might not even be good at it. In fact, if quietly loathing the experience, probably won't be all that good at it. I've never worked with Bret and I'm not saying this about him, I'm saying this about every big name author you can think of. They aren't automatically gifted teachers and the best writing teachers aren't always big name authors. It's a strike of blue lightning when someone is world class at both.
Let's ask Harlan Ellison, he loves writer's groups LOL
how about a contest? Post a picture of yourself with Thomas Pynchon, and he has to teach a class.
How about Anne Rice? It would be called, "Jesus, Vampires & Erotica".
Alien - did you read her Sleeping Beauty erotica?
Some of it, yeah, it was sooooo out there.
I was pretty disturbed by it. I didn't know what to expect going in and I was freaked the fuck out once I realized what it was all about.
Okay, sorry for the off topic.
Doesn't it even have bestiality in it? Then she turns to Jesus and now she's gonna start writing about Werewolves. I do not understand that woman.
What I read did not have beastiality, but I wouldn't doubt it. I didn't read all three of them. I know there was a part where they used people as horses.
Summarizing what @Mark has said above, there are those who do and those who can teach. It is rare to find someone who can (or who is willing to do) both. Fault neither. And now I step down from the pedestal of wisdom. On with the show.
Holy Oprah.
That picture is the stuff nightmares are made of.
Is she scared or constipated?
I guess we're pretty close to the same line of reasoning here. I definitely don't fault or ridicule anyone for knowing where to draw the line regarding their own commitments. But there's maybe a bit more to my line of thinking than easily summarized.
One thing I'd like to convey is that a great writing teacher is always a competent writer, but not necessarily a famous one. Fame has an element of luck and timing and sometimes even aggressiveness built into it. Competency is built on practice.
A corollary point is that a famous writer (especially one who's esteemed around here) could just about always be at least competent as a writing teacher, if finding the time for it. But to be a great writing teacher, you need more than masterful skills as a writer. You need insight into your own process and the ability to communicate and make explicit what works for you and why. If you're an instinctual writer, there's a chance you need to think about your process a little more consciously than you'd like. There's a chance you need to be willing to share things that a childlike part of yourself clings to selfishly, like they're trade secrets. And there's a chance you haven't examined which of your opinions about writing are good for any student who comes near you, and which things are more superstitious or idiosyncratic.
Sometimes great writers are a little narcissistic or so far down the rabbit hole of their latest manuscript that they can't be found. Great writing teachers are generous, tuned into the needs of others, great at modeling out their own processes instead of just striking a pose and hoping something good rubs off on you. And the best teachers are genuinely concerned for the students' success, sometimes put their own writing projects on hold, temporarily, while helping someone, and probably have a strong base of teaching experience. In teaching, like everything else, you learn by doing. A great writing teacher can be your coach and your best friend, just like a great agent can.
Top competitive pro athletes often have coaches and trainers who've never struck as much of a public figure as the celebrity competitor has. And this is true not only as they're coming up or getting discovered, it's often true well after the athlete becomes a big public figure. They still rely on the expertise of people living quieter lives than themselves.
There's an obvious appeal to getting a writing class with someone whose books you enjoy reading or maybe even aspire to emulate. And we do our best to give you some of that here. But I have to caution people away from the glamorous and simplistic idea that an author's public stature or celebrity bears any kind of neat or predictable relationship with how someone ranks as an instructor.
Honestly, it wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit if we included a bit of a softer genre, as well. It would be neat if we could get someone like Stephen Erikson to teach a class.
Also, this might sound lame - but I'd really love something like a prose class. My favorite part of the Clevenger class was the last lecture which was all about editing and prose. I'd love a class that focused solely on the stylistic aspects of writing. Maybe it could be taught by a poet or something like that. James Salter would be nice as well...
I had a professor at the University of Connecticut, Tom Deans, who focused solely on the impact of style on the reader. Truly an eye opening class for me. Not sure if anyone else would be interesting in taking a fiction focused class by a professor (ie not an established fiction writer). I could probably link up with him if other people would be interested in that type of class.
@David: I would be interested.
I don't know if anybody has mentioned this before. I think there should be some that people who review longer stories can be awarded more points. Some of the stories I've posted and plan to post are monsters and it's not exactly fair to expect people to put the same effort into 5500 words as they do into 2500. Conversely, it also doesn't seem that some of the longer stories get quite the attention as the shorter ones (I'm not going to do a spreadsheet on that to prove anything, I'm just stating it). It seems the situation could be improved by some additional incentive.
Of course, there is a great deal of potential difficulty with making this work. Like everybody entering their stories as the higher word-count stories so they can give out 5 stars instead of 3 because it seems like the "nice thing to do", and soon 5 stars becomes the default for everything. Is there a way to prevent this? Booting stories with improperly posted word counts? But that would require maybe a lot of oversight. Size category could be assigned by file size, maybe?
Anyway, that's my two cents. Probably entirely in self-interest, for that moment when I hit "Post" on a 15,000 word literary juggernaut. Because I'll want somebody to read it.
Yeah so has anyone noticed the home page where it shows the actions? Updates of threads and who logs in. When it says somebody has logged in 20 times in a row, this is the site messing up and that person has to clear the cookies and cache to fix the problem.
Is the LR team working on this?
I'm still kind of interested in that David Corbett class depite the big price. I think it's a reasonable price for what's being offered, I just have doubts that the kind of people aware of this site are able to drop that kind of money. What would that class be like if only 2 or 3 people ended up enrolled? Has anyone here said fuck it and signed up? I'm still considering it only because I'm lucky enough to have absolutely no obligations with my sorry life that would stop me and I jump at any chance to spend money irresponsibly. I haven't read David Corbett's fiction but have read his thoughts and heard him talk around the internet and his thoughts on the craft are genuinely fascinating.
I'm one of those that's been dying for Jack Ketchum to come back or for Joe Lansdale. With the amount of activity he does on twitter and his blog I think Joe Hill might be interested in teaching but doubt he has the time. I wouldn't mind a class from someone who aims for the big L literary stuff instead of genre, but then again I would have no idea what focus they would have for an intensive. Steve Erickson could be interesting, Jim Shepard, George Saunders, Stewart O'Nan. None of those guys I think would be up for it actually.
I will have money to take a class in a few weeks so I'm hoping that something good is coming up.
I want a definiton for the genres. I know some of them, but I don't know them all. How would you define:
absurdist
adventure
biographical
bizarro
cyberpunk
fantastic
fantasy
horror
literary
magical realism
mystery
narrative non-fiction
noir
political
psychological
realism
sci-fi
slipstream
subversive
suprise me
suspense
thriller
transgressive
Well, if anyone will buy my left nut, I'd be happy to sign up for the Corbett class. Apparently my kidney wasn't in good enough condition to sell even on the black market.
I'm working on that, thankfully it doesn't hit a lot of people, but Facebook basically made some changes to their login SDK and didn't bother to tell anyone. It's been harder to pin down but I think the solution has finally revealed itself.
It's currently around half way sold out. So there will certainly be more than 2-3 people in there :)
Wikipedia is no longer blacked-out my friend. :-D You should find thorough descriptions of each there. I know when we included them, we verified that they all were represented.
Ok. Good point. I never have looked them up :)
oops, read version below.
For Bryan
absurdist--The clock struck thirteen and the looney birds were out in full force again, Zooey decided he would call the trombone police and send them out to play net-basket again.
adventure--Ian entered the tomb and rubbed the jewels in his hand. The cave started to crumble around him and he found himself trapped in a large crypt.
biographical--Four score and seven years ago...
bizarro--One day my penis told me it wanted to run for President.
cyberpunk--Bryan inserted the microchip into the back of his brain and entered the machine.
fantastic--Suddenly the world exploded into bright neon colors.
fantasy--The elder elf took his vorpal blade and hummed a culling song to the Rune King.
horror--Cthulhu woke after a long slumber, ready to devour the world.
literary--In the ashy air of darkness, Lilian rose and greeting the African sky with a look of wonderment. Soon I shall be a woman!
magical realism--Derek noticed that the staircase had begun speaking shortly after he was halfway up. "Pardon me?" the staircase said, "Can you get off my head?"
mystery--Amber picked up the bloody knife and hid it in her bag, her husband was dead and it was only a matter of time before the cops came. She put on her best shocked face.
narrative non-fiction--I grew up in a small town where everyone knew my name and it was well known that I came from a family of alcoholics.
noir--The spicy dame walked into my office smelling like roses and hot blood, her body had all the right kinda shapes. I tipped my hat and said, "What can I do ya for, babe?" "I need to find a killer," she said and licked her lips.
political--It was in my third year of college that I decided to run for office, I was a member of the Republican League of Students and had just led my first protest against gay marriage.
psychological--In the darkened alleyways of her mind, Shelia always wondered if Devon was real or if she made him up. She looked at the clothes on the bed and noticed they were covered in blood.
realism--The cold dry earth touches my hands and for the first time since I woke up on that beach, I realized that I had a problem with heroin.
sci-fi--The alien apocalypse was brief but in the end, mankind surrendered. Now we are all genetic hybrids who live with a double consciousness and are part of a dying species.
slipstream--In the intangible eye of fevered thought, Marcus saw the elevator move to and fro taking passengers to their destination. It was only after it hit the 30th floor that he realized he was in a 12 story building.
subversive--The prostitute was sickened by the moanings of the John but she did her job and she did it well. When he was done, he gave a loud grunt, she opened the car door and then spit his seed onto the pavement. "Five dollars," she said.
suprise me--I decided I would become the character in my story one day so I bought a gun and went to the office. The first person I shot was my secretary, she was mid-sentence when I blew her brains out. She always made lousy coffee anyway.
suspense--Toby turned the car towards the edge of the cliff and narrowly missed careening into the rocks below. The killer pursued him and he climbed out of the car and ran into the woods where he fell and sprained his ankle.
thriller--The serial killer waited in the closet and watched her undress. He waited until she was sleeping before he walked over and listened to the sounds of her breath.
transgressive--Jimmy walked into the nightclub with a self-satisfied smile on his face and felt the pills in his pocket. The club was already fresh with sluts of all shapes and sizes. He fondled the man's finger in his jacket and prepared for the evening ahead.
You're welcome, Bryan! lol
That was actually the most exhausting writing exercise I have done in awhile. Enjoy your examples! Fuck definitions!
Awesome. I'm educated now.
That was some seriously impressive writing.
Bumping this. those definitions should be in the 'first time submitting' page. Man, they're funny. I just went to describe a story to a friend and realized I didn't know the genre and came back to this page to figure it out.
nicely done, alien. i'd say spot on, too.
I didn't read through all the replies here so I may repeat some stuff. Also, considering I'm new meat what I really want, really, really want, probably don't amount to a heapin' of fish guts.
First, a method for individual users to send Points to other members. Why? This makes the Points more like a virtual currency and an additional resource for the community. Members could send others Points for added "thank you" or during member hosted contest/challenges on the forums x Points are awarded the winner(s).
Private groups: Not sure if Reactor is large enough for this idea, but having private groups/circles within the larger frame of the site would be awesome. Imagine the ability of creating a private "Cyberpunk Writer's Group" and all cyberpunk writers/readers could join the group. Also, for more focused reviewing of novels a group could be set up for interested members to participate in reading of novels chapter-by-chapter.
A better organized listing of the most updated forum post might be useful too. Say a smalll box on the member's Dashboard that says "Top Recent Forum Post" and links to the last five threads created/replied too. Also, perhaps a similar feed with the most recent posted works. (This may actually already exist and I've just not noticed it.)
I'm not certain if a live chat on the site would be such a good idea. I know writer communities can have a diverse and passionate member base, and it's quite easy to see personalities clash, feelings hurt, and snowflakes damaged....having everyone in a real-time environment might require extra/added moderation from the Litreactor team.
This post is probably already getting too long for most people's attention span so I'm going to wrap it
I would like to see monthly competitions. Select a genre and have people submit their work for that genre. Whichever submission is the best wins a mug or some sort of prize.
But I think that would just make everyone's work much harder.
@Max, Thanks for the feedback.
1. We discussed "gifting" points at some point. It is on my "eventually" roadmap but I do have some concerns about it as a system that could discourage interactions with newer members. It could become a big drawback.
2. We also discussed this. You're on the money, we aren't big enough for private groups yet. I want us to get that big so I can have a good reason to add them. But, and I think this is worth noting, in most cases private groups fail because let's face it. We all want attention.
3. I could add the discussion listing to the dashboard. That is a reasonable request. But if you use the tabs at the top of the discussions section, I think you'll find most of what you want. It's just not in the dasboard.
4. There are 2 boxes you can add to your dashboard. Click the "ADD A BLOCK" link on your dashboard page. "My Friends workshop submissions" which is pretty self-explanatory. And, "Help a brother out" which shows workshop subs that have yet to be reviewed. I can probably add a generic "new workshop subs" box as well.
@PandaMask We're working on some ideas!
I've taken 3 classes at LitReactor, and they've all been very worthwhile for very different reasons. All worth the money, for sure.
Given that we're talking about what we want from future courses(I think?), I want to chime in on one particular teaching method that was useful.
As a part of Stephen Graham Jones' class, he uploaded videos of himself reading and correcting ALL of our submissions (3 short stories, all focusing on new discussion items). He also chose a published short story that he liked and took the time to upload a video of him discussing that. Watching a video of a well-spoken professor reading through student stories and critiquing each and every aspect of them was more helpful for my development than just about anything else I've been exposed to.
Granted, SGJ has the personality to effectively do that kind of thing, and that's not true for a lot of other teachers. If SGJ ever taught here again, or if another teacher offered that service, I'd sign up immediately.
Thanks,
-Mike
Shit, that class sounds awesome. I need to start selling stories so I can take classes.
But I have to take classes so I can sell stories.
Shit... life-logic-loop.
I like the video interactive thing. That's cool. I would love that.
Now if you can get Chuck Palahniuk to leave dirty messages on my voicemail as part of the class, I would pay double.
With anything that is already awesome, there are some of us that want it to be more awesome. I only have a couple suggestions.
1. My reply to posts in the workshop should not count as a review. It should be its own thread and not impact the count. This makes it seem like 20 people already reviewed my work when in fact I only had 3 people actually submit a review.
2. I'm a new aspiring writer. I would benefit from a $50 course where as Rian may not. I believe if you have short one week courses to really sit down with a teacher to discuss the fundamentals.
I keep reading show, don't tell, but I lack the knowledge to really see how I didn't or how to fix it in the future and get into that mindset. Just an example.
3. I want some LitR gear, stickers, something.
4. I would like to "Favorite" specific items in a discussion. Such as Aliensoul77's post about what each of the genres actually are. I know I can "favorite" the whole discussion, but I just want the one post.
5. The ability to see who is a paid member and who is not. Also who is online.
That is all I have at the moment. I hope I provided something valuable that may be utilized. As it stands this site is the best site I've been on and the people on here are knowledgeable and all seem to have a common purpose.
I second the idea of a post reply not counting as a review.
I like the idea of annual membership being included with initial course registration.
I would also like the ability to give someone positive or negative reputation points as I can on other forums.
@jfdiaz, I'm flattered you wanted to favorite that post. That was fun to write. Maybe they can post it in a special section of the site called, "Members whose smartassery becomes unintentional art". Or at least in the flash fiction thread, how they pick a winner each month, the winner should get their flash fiction posted on the website as a highlighted fiction of the month, same for the writer battles in litreactor where people have to vote on a favorite short story winner. The winner should get a free mug!
If they could have a polls system for the votes. That could work.