Well, I'm just about to start novella #3 and I have a character BUT I have no complete plot. I need this. So could you give me some advice?
What I know about him is that his name is Alex and he is...
fascinated with Anders Breivik
depressed and self loathing
asexual but very submissive and doesn't really care who wants to fuck him, etc.
hates society for letting Liss (his little brother) die (from cancer)
disproportionately violent
wants to be nice, he really, really does, but he isn't.
And I really like this character. I may have posted an outlne earlier but that one doesn't work, because it doesn't.
By what I mean, by "no complete plot" is that I have a handful of waypoints and characters I will use, but nothing resembling a story. So, I guess my question is: when you have a character, how do you make a story? Question two, is if that character was presented to you, would YOU be interested in reading a story from his point of view?
Also, general advice thread.
Just my own opinion, but that dude is a little complicated to start with. I would also focus more on plot....which drives the story....it's great to be a character writer but that isn't a story per se in the same way excessive detailing isn't.
Also, I don't really see a lot of contradiction with this guy. Maybe introduce some into his persona.
asexaul....but submissive. hates society...wants to be nice. I guess I can embellish.
well, I see your point, but they just seem like formulaic. Just my opinion though! Take it with a grain of salt, I think it would an interesting read regardless.
I do take hunks of salt. He IS a contract killer...so, I can have him struggle with morality.
He IS a contract killer...so, I can have him struggle with morality."
Now THAT would be a great read. Like you could even make him really religious, it'll go along with the asexual stuff.
Every time he kills a guy, he adopts an animal from the humane society.
"Every time he kills a guy, he adopts an animal from the humane society."
I'd read that.
When I've finished a character, I usually feel confident in the story. I don't know that you can really have a character without a story or a story without a character.
If he's a contract killer, why not start with his first kill? It's an easy distribution of backstory and action. That could get you jumpstarted on the rest of the plot.
Id have to disagree with Matt. Characters drive a story, not plot. You can have an amazing plot, but if the characters suck the reader won't care. You do need a mix, but characters matter more to me.
okies, <3 much love to you all! I am now off to write!
Start a journal. Just write as his voice. About what? Whatever comes to you. A plot will show itself eventually.
I feel this is too happy for an opening paragraph from the point of view of a depressed and self loathing person.
When they shot Anders Breivik, on a roasting day in August, so hot, in fact, that the roads blistered, car tyres melted into a monstrous sludge, and buses became hazy streaks of red, I self-diagnosed myself with schizophrenia and went outside for the first time in a week, to get a pint of milk or two. I was making pancakes at one pea-emm and I had ran out. I'm a nocturnal creature, a sickly, disjointed beast with not an ounce of self respect, and so in the public eye, I was scary. Clean, yes. The sort of person you'd ask for the time from, no. Not that I'd tell them if they did. I hate my city. But, if I moved elsewhere, I'd hate it, also so there's not much point, is there? My city stinks of the blood and shit and tears of the underclass, and the spunk and purfume of the übermenchen. It's been like this forever. The many suffer to serve the obese few. Not...not that I count myself as one of them. It's just a social commentary. My vantage point, unclouded by prejudice, since I hate everyone equally. Black, white, gay, straight, left, right, man, woman. You're all the same hunks of meat, all of you have livers and libidos and hot, sticky blood so why single out?
I think your characters are too self aware of their neuroses so it takes away from the drama, sometimes its better for them to be oblivious of their contradictions and their lack of sanity. Maybe he has angelic visions and thinks they are real, you want to leave the reader with a little doubt. Create an unreliable narrator.
I wouldnt make him asexual but pervert his concept of sexuality, maybe after he kills someone he kisses them and looks into their eyes and feels like he has consumed a piece of their soul. Maybe he hires prostitutes just to feel their skin and watch them bathe, maybe he denies himself sexual contact because he fears closeness. Give him a love interest and make it the person he must kill. Eccentricites are key.
Plus his hatred of everything makes me hate him, why should I care about a narrator who has no heart? Make him vulnerable, give him a weakness or else he is just another mindless action hero. Show us what he loves about life and how it contradicts his destructive nature.
Personally, I don't know who my characters are until the story's finished. They can always surprise you, and that's why I think it's important to focus on plot just as much as character. Just put your character on the page with some other characters and see what happens.
Well he suffers from the "dead-brother-syndrome", this time, from cancer. His little brother developed a tumor in his pineal gland and it was too much of a dangerous operation to carry out. So his little brother dies. That's his vulnerability. His visions would be more demonic, to be honest.
He would be the sort of person to take a prostitute out on a date, and buy her dinner and then in his room, tell her to stab him, or mutliate him with an iron or burn him because he finds self harm clicheed and dull. And they all don't do it and run off, but he pays them anyway, except for one....
@tyler
well, I have five characters who will be in this
Ella, who is the prostitute who actually does go and mutilate Alex
Matt, her younger brother, who is sixteen and incredibly adept at harming people.
Howard, Alex's handler. She is a girl, but calls herself Howard cause that's her surname. She gives him orders, etc.
Kat, (my favourite character), who is an alblino hungarian girl who Alex "aquires" as a "gift" later in the story.
I think you have a great start in that your character is "muli-faceted". Alex could have any personality disorder which could lead to anything you'd like. Just a thought....take care.
When you have a character, how do you make a story?
Start by trying to kill them. You've got a clear picture of the character in your head. Now think like someone who wants this guy dead. What defines him? Highlight those situations. What made him who he is? How does he keep himself together? How does he get through the day?
If that character was presented to you, would YOU be interested in reading a story from his point of view?
To be honest, no. To me, the list you presented seems like overkill. It's throwing too many things at the wall to see if they stick. What defines the character? As a reader I could care less about his interest in Anders Breivik or his sexual deviance (or lack of it).
Start with the basics. You tell us he's a contract killer, right? Then the character has no shortage of enemies. The downside of being a contract killer is, that unless he has some form of 'security', he's ultimately expendable. Both the employer and law enforcement want his ass gone. The latter because he's a socipathic threat to the fabric of society and the former because he can incriminate them in a crime. What makes the character different? How does he stand out?
Personally, I don't care much for the 'killer for hire' stories. They get old really quickly. I'd rather see the character thrust into extraordinary circumstances and either be crushed by it or survive despite everything stacked against him.
Here's what you listed that stands out to me:
hates society for letting Liss (his little brother) die (from cancer). Cut away all the rest and this is the basis for the core values of the character. This is what drives him, motivates him, and forms the basis for his beliefs. Is he keeping score? Is every kill dedicated to the memory of his little brother? Or is it tearing away what's left of his own soul piece by piece, with the yawing abyss of emptiness in his head growing ever larger and hungrier?
depressed and self loathing. Why? Because of his brother's death? Is it guilt? Or just anger? Depressed people tend to be fairly static. What drives him? Moves him? Is he suicidal? Is he seeking death?
disproportionately violent. So what? This tells us very little. Does he have poor impulse control and lash out at everyone, all the time. If so, he's likely to have a short career and nobody will want anything to do with him. Plus, no matter how big and bad you are, there's always someone bigger and badder. Is it situational? What triggers it? How does he feel about it afterwards? Can he control himself or does it control him? Again, this reads as an e-ticket to a shallow grave or a jail cell.
Ella, who is the prostitute who actually does go and mutilate Alex
Interesting. This has some potential. But is this a one time thing, or a recurring character?
Matt, her younger brother, who is sixteen and incredibly adept at harming people.
Yawn. So what? How is this relevant? Is he the prodigy who Alex will adopt as a proxy for his dead brother?
Howard, Alex's handler. She is a girl, but calls herself Howard cause that's her surname. She gives him orders, etc.
She gives orders to a depressed, self loathing contract killer? What's she got on him? How does she motivate/control him? Don't say sex. Please, for the love of god, don't say sex.
Kat, (my favourite character), who is an alblino hungarian girl who Alex "aquires" as a "gift" later in the story.
What's her role? Does she remind him of the shred of humanity hidden deep inside?
Start by trying to kill them.
Grigori, that is awesome. I, for one, thank you for that piece of advice.
Also, although I thought Valhalla Rising wound up being a bit of a let-down, One-Eye is the man.
Here is something to think about.
Don't have a plot.
Okay so of course in the end it will have some kind of plot but with your characters, I'd like to think you could pull off an experiment like that. Make it about character progression rather than plot. Since it's a novella.
Is he keeping score? Is every kill dedicated to the memory of his little brother? Or is it tearing away what's left of his own soul piece by piece, with the yawing abyss of emptiness in his head growing ever larger and hungrier?
No, he isn't. He's doing this as a mixture of vengance and to save him, from the world and himself. And yeah, eventually he gets addicted to killing.
But is this a one time thing, or a recurring character? She and him eventually go out. She's the romantic subplot
Yawn. So what? How is this relevant? Is he the prodigy who Alex will adopt as a proxy for his dead brother? No, he's Alex alternative for self abuse and loathing. Alex uses Matt essentially as a toy to make him cope. Matt eventually falls in love with Alex.
What's her role? Does she remind him of the shred of humanity hidden deep inside?#
She is his attemptive cure,
His interest in Anders Breivik.
He is fascinated with Anders because he is at once repulsed and attracted to the idea. He will have a breakdown during a mission and kill seventy-seven people.
Why? Because of his brother's death? Is it guilt? Or just anger? Depressed people tend to be fairly static. What drives him? Moves him? Is he suicidal? Is he seeking death?
He is depressed because, despite how many people he kills, he'll never be able to save his brother. So he hates himself, and eventually starts hating his brother and trying to kill away the pain. He wants to be with his brother, but not before he cleans himself. He does this by killing.
So what?
It's why he is a killer in the first place. His anger roasts inside him and that is how he can kill people. A mixture of hatred and boiling violence.
Typewriter,
I don't want to be harsh, but if you're this passionate about assuring us that your characters are interesting and relevant to the story, then WRITE the story and let us judge it. At this point we're just reading about your opinion of them, which doesn't give us much.
It's like hearing about how great a musician is without actually hearing his/her music.
You started this topic for the purpose of trying to get a plot across, but you're giving away the plot every time you explain your characters. It looks to me like you've already got your story brewing. Just start it and we'll let know you what we think in the workshop.
Yeah, I guess. I just wanted to know what you guys thought, that's all. I don't want to make a "bite" mistake again.
Make him a priest.
@Clutch
why?
Make him a priest."
Yes.
Don't know if you've seen this, but maybe it would bring inspiration. I know it can be found on Netflix. and prob youtube in episode form.
he could be like that guy in Angles and Demons that kills on behalf of the church.
The guy's nineteen. How does a modern ninteen yearold give a fuck about religion?
For some odd reason I thought it was stated that the guy had a "very religious and oppressive father."
I sure cared about religion when I was 19...
Grigori, that is awesome. I, for one, thank you for that piece of advice.
Also, although I thought Valhalla Rising wound up being a bit of a let-down, One-Eye is the man.
@Utah
Yeah, it was a weird trip. A little too artsy in some spots. Definitely not what I was expecting.
@Typewriter
Yeah, I guess. I just wanted to know what you guys thought, that's all. I don't want to make a "bite" mistake again.
Take this with a grain of salt, but there's a definite recurring element in your ideas. I'm all for calling a spade a spade. If sex is going to be central to your ideas, don't be coy about it. Write porn. If it's not, get away from the bisexual, fuck anything, don't fucking care, etc. schtick. The problem I see is that it feels like you're throwing all sorts of things together to make it 'edgy' and it winds up being overkill.
I think the 'Anders Breivik' bit really highlights this. It's a contemporary issue/event, and something that you like. That's fine. But is it central to your character's ideology? If so, why? If the best you can come up with is 'because it's cool' ditch it. Make your character unique, make him real.
If he wants to go on a rampage or have a breakdown and kill a bunch of people, make it his idea. Fuck Anders Breivik and fuck imitation being the sincerest form of flattery. Own it. Make it his fucking opus, make every bloody, gory, screaming death another note in the symphony of destruction that only he can create and only you can write.
You've got some good ideas buried in what you come up with, but the idea gets lost in all the junk that comes along with it. I think you can do better.
And just to add a bit further to what Black said:
One of our biggest and toughest jobs as writers is to develop the ability to sift through all that murk that fills our subconscious minds and bring out the stuff that really works and shape it. It's a difficult row to hoe. Because when our subconscious mind spits that stuff out at us, it assures us, "Hey man, this is the good shit right here." And if we start criticizing it too early, it just shuts the fuck up and stops throwing out anything. So we have to be able to watch and listen to the things it throws up there, measure them, and then very carefully select what we work with.
I'll disagree with Black and say that if you want to write about bisexuality you don't have to confine yourself to porn. Your character can still be a mass murdering fiend. But you need to bear in mind that, the more overt complexity you add to a character, the longer your novel will have to be to support that complexity. Unless you're Borges, in which case you don't need anybody's advice.
Thing is, I don't think the novel you've described is too complex to write. You'll just need to keep close track of it all. Have fun with this.
@Black
Yeah, it was a weird trip. A little too artsy in some spots. Definitely not what I was expecting.
Exactly. It had some great shit to work with at the beginning. That character, tied by his neck to the post and gladiator-fighting with no weapons but his hands or what he could find. That was great. Excellent start to a movie. But then...it just kinda dissipated. I'm a fan of the director, though. Bronson and Drive were both, in my opinion, just really cool movies.
y thanks, utah. So, in short, step lightly?
Who is Borges I'll wiki it dw.
So, in short, step lightly?
No, man, never that. Go in with gusto. Make your decisions and then write your ass off and don't be afraid of anything about. Just write the fuck out of it. No matter how careful you try to be in your pre-planning decision-making process, you will make some decisions that don't work. Never worry about that. If you write a novel you will likely write it three times anyway.
What I'm suggesting is that you try to be selective in your initial preparation process. If you need to, test the water with some folks you trust. But then when you write it, especially that first draft, just cut loose. Go all Kerouac and slather it out on the page as fast as you can. The second stage of deep critical thinking comes with the second draft, where you pick apart what you've done and get rid of what doesn't work.
But don't step lightly. Wear heavy boots when you work. Writing's not delicate.
okay. Thanks for the awesome speech. I will screencap it and give it to my students if I stay here long enough.
I dunno why to make him a priest. It just seems like an added and demented twist.
19 years old. a priest. yes.
Could happen. You just might have to change your setting to, like 500 A.D.
Well he could be in the seminary or whatever, right? See, this is all coming together.
19 years old, a contract killer and a priest? I'd stop reading at that point. Getting his start as a contract killer is (somewhat) plausible at 19 but so unlikely that the story is going to have to be absolutely compelling to keep my attention and help me suspend disbelief. Pile seminary school on top of that? Eh. Not my cup of tea I guess.
the "yes" was sarcastic.
Just write hot bisexual bondage porn. It's all the rage.
Along with the advice for when you don't know what to write next (describe the inside of the character's mouth), I am going to take this advice as gospel. What do you do when you don't know where the story goes next? Try to kill the protagonist.
Thank you, Grig. Fucking brilliant.
He will have a breakdown during a mission and kill seventy-seven people.
A breakdown during a mission? That's an e-ticket to a short future. If he's killing just for the sake of killing, that's not all that interesting. The Tacoma Mall shooting is a good example of a failed spree shooting. The guy had an automatic weapon in a crowded mall and still didn't manage to kill anyone.
Spree killers usually have limited success. If they get more than a handful, they're lucky. The really successful ones have a plan and pick the right location and targets. A little chaos goes a long way, but when it's all said and done the guy is either smoked or in cuffs. It's not something you can just walk away from.
His anger roasts inside him and that is how he can kill people. A mixture of hatred and boiling violence.
Poor quailities for a contract killer. Great for a spur of the moment, rampage driven, spree killer/mass murderer. Neither one contributes to longevity.
There was a kid in Iraq a few years ago. He was 19 or so and had just been picked up by the Iraqi Police I was working with. They'd been tracking him for a couple of months before someone tipped the police off and picked him up along with a few buddies. We were processing them so that there'd be a record of all of them in the system in case they were ever encountered down the road by other US units and picked up for anything.
Most people picked up by the police are all but pissing themselves by the time they got to us. The kid was as calm as could be. Normal looking guy, going to school, had a girlfriend, etc. Nothing odd about him. You couldn't pick him out of a line up of any other of a hundred other kids you'd see walking around every day.
But for 500 dollars he'd walk into your home and hack up your family with a machete. No questions asked.
He'd been picked up at 17 and recruited by a local cell as an expendable asset. His family needed money because his oldest brother had been arrested and his father didn't make enough to support the family.
At first they asked him to be a look out. But that didn't pay anything. Then they asked him to place bombs, but he thought it was too dangerous. So the cell gave him fifty dollars to kill someone. The kid didn't know who the target was, or why they needed to be killed. Only that fifty dollars was more than his father made in a month (gotta love exchange rates).
Fire and forget. If the kid succeeded, great. If not, ah well, there are a dozen other out of work locals they can find to do the same thing. So he goes in and kills the guy and walks out. A week later he's back asking for more 'work', but wants more money. They agree and why not? He's a good investment so far and they're rolling in cash. Every couple of weeks he comes back and they have a new target for this kid to take out.
Before long, this kid becomes the local boogyman. Pro-Government officials (and anyone really) are terrified every time they call home and nobody picks up or pull in the driveway and the lights are out that they're going to walk into their home and find their wives, sons, daughters, brothers, cousins, etc. chopped into kibble and piled up on the living room floor.
The speculations were wild: It was a Syrian gang, a group of thugs hopped up on drugs, Iranian plots, etc. Rumors of rogue CIA hit teams rapelling in under the cover of darkness and AQI mujahideen hashashins ran rampant.
In the end it was just a 19 year old kid who needed the money. He'd watch the house for a couple of days, figure out how many people lived there and wait until the head of the household stepped out. As soon as they rolled out of sight, he'd knock on the door with a smile and proceed to hack everyone he found inside to death with an old rusted machete. Mostly he killed women and children, with a few old men thrown in. A quick change of clothes and a paycheck later he'd be rolling down the street munching kebab and hanging out with his friends.
The only reason they caught him is because the financing cell got rolled up and had him listed as one of their assets. According to the books he'd been paid almost ten grand over the course of a year.
His only regret? "I should have asked for more money."
I think they wound up hanging that kid.
<*crickets chirping*>
Interesting, Grigori
So what you're saying is that I should change him. Okay, can do.
He hates society for the death of his brother, and punishes hmself for letting him die. He kills because he gets paid. He will kill anyone, except for children. His minder, Howard is a girl: a no-nonsence business type, with rough edges from abuse. Her dream is to be able to fly. Despite her exterior, she's just a girl who wants to have friends. She has no friends, because of her company. She's a strategist who knows the right people...wrapped up in the package of what appears on Suicide Girls now and again.
Alex doesn't understand her, since all he sees is a suit and a broken heart. She reaches out to him, and he ignores her, cause all he cares about is someone dead. When Alex gets enough money, he hires prostitutes, (cause he hasn't ever had sex) takes them on dates and asks them to stab him. All of them refuse, except for Ella.
Alex hires Ella around ten times before going on a date with her as a person, not a whore. Love blossoms....It's unclear what Ella wants. Maybe she wants someone to hurt. Maybe she actually loves him.
Is that a better start, Grigori?
I'm not saying you should change him. I'mjust advising that you think him out some. The bare bones you've given so far don't really tell much of a story. This latest bit is better than what you started with though. Ultimately, it's your story, write it out how you see fit.
So could you give me some advice?
Just write the story, change this guy to be less you and more himself.
When you have a character, how do you make a story?
I just write the parts I know I want and connect them. I'm not afraid to throw new stuff in and the plot and characters grow together.
Question two, is if that character was presented to you, would YOU be interested in reading a story from his point of view?
Not really these guys all seem way over blown/silly. They come across like you want to shock the read, and that is just about impossible these days. To your credit I'm about 10 - 14 chapters into my own story about a Assassin with mental health issues so it could just be that I'm sick of the idea.
How does a modern ninteen yearold give a fuck about religion?
Same way anyone does. He has come to believe that the world is broken because of human, and at some deep level feels it should be better. He then comes to believe that the way to do that can't come from a broken world, but some outside source to repair it. It should be hard for anyone who has seen this much pain to think the world is bad. Maybe the only ones who would help with funding was a church so now he is grateful and thinks that non-believers are all evil since they let his brother die?
If the dead brother thing is supposed to make us like him, it fails. I have a dead brother at a young age, and frankly it seems like it's just another sob story to be a jerk.
Ditch the bi/asexual thing. If he just isn't into dating, just have him not be into dating. You have 800 things going on here, you don't need to have his non-feelings on love be 801.
More show, less tell.
Don't try to not suck, just go be awesome. Less Luke, more Han.
Most seminaries require that you have a bachelors before you enter. Further most seminaries have a ton of class work and other activities that students are in. He would have very little free time to be a killer, unless it was like a summer job. Maybe have him be in college getting a degree on religious history or something so he can latter go to seminary.
Trying to kill a protagonist is so over done. Either A) you have stupid antagonists who you can't take too seriously (Die Hard) or B) you have bad writing in which the uber bad guy is really unlucky (the Borg).
Rob all the joy of his life, now that is a story. Have someone who is trying to do something that would rob all joy of his life, i.e. wants to pass a new tax law that would destroy his already poor church's funding. Further the lack of funding can be why he became a hit man. Try to tie things together so people will thing this guy makes some sense. Make not logical, but some sense. "Yeah, he was already a hired killer to get money for his church so he would do all this other crazy stuff."
Not saying you have to do the religious thing, just that you need some kind of setting for all this. A church, a hospital, his house, whatever.
"When Alex gets enough money, he hires prostitutes, (cause he hasn't ever had sex) takes them on dates and asks them to stab him. All of them refuse, except for Ella." Ditch this, it doesn't fit. And honestly it's kind of stupid. You'll get readers thinking, "What the hell is this stab porn doing in here? Why doesn't he just use the hooker like a normal guy and play X-Box? He isn't cool..."
Not saying you have to make him cool, but you don't want the reader sitting there thinking about how odd he is, it breaks submersion.
Just write the parts you are sure you want to have. Him talking to his handler, stuff like that. From there you'll see other stuff you need to write. You don't have to start at chapter 1.
You have to make this guy someone people will want to read about. Why would I read about this deranged odd ball?
I need this story to have a romantic subplot, because I can't write an onanic tale which resides firmly in the narrator's head and nowhere else.
If the dead brother thing is supposed to make us like him, it fails. I have a dead brother at a young age, and frankly it seems like it's just another sob story to be a jerk. No, it's not. It's his driving force. His dead brother makes him get up in the morning.
He isn't cool..." Yes, that's right. He isn't cool. And why would anyone waste a prostitute by playing X-Box with her?
Rob all the joy of his life, now that is a story. In the proto-draft of this story, his brother is still alive but has cancer and he feels neglected by his parents and kills people to pay for the medical upkeep. I'm not sure if I should bring that back.
They come across like you want to shock the read, and that is just about impossible these days. That wasn't intended. I just want to give the reader something new.
