Haha, we could ask Kirk for that too, maybe. Or we can cheat it and give it free points for one worded reviews on our stories.
Maybe Kirk or whoever could subtract points from those of us who have a ton. I have 190 points to use and I'd give up some for the cause.
But, if we get to post the drafts without points, then what is the incentive to review them - that is my point.
I just messaged Kirk to see if he has some suggestions. Let's give him some time to get interested.
- To learn. But, I understand what you're saying.
This part might not be easy, but I'm sure a solution exists.
Somebody trustworthy would run it and rate the reviews on their own merit.
Got the answer. We should ask the contestants to switch with another contestant. (based on some crazy numerical set up). Then the people posting wont have their own story and everybody knows it. So it will be blinded
Ask BryanHowie to do it.
It's at least 5 stories.
Are you only getting 2 points avery?
@Fritz: that could very well work.
By this, I nkow you mean me, but I just don't know that I have the time to devote to that.
Oh, of course. hang on, I have to go feed my unicorn.
It will work if there is a master of ceremony to coordinate switches and the contestants dont blab
"It's at least 5 stories.
Are you only getting 2 points avery?"
No, I meant if we post a rough and a final - two stories. Know what i mean?
Fritz - I think that would work.
@Laurance: I've been asking myself for days why your name isn't on this contestant list and I keep coming up with only a blank, tear-streaked face. So I'll save myself the office embarassment and ask you, instead: You want in? You should say yes, because "yes" is fun and "no" is not.
" the contestants dont blab"
Okay. The contestants will all send their stories in to a trustworthy person. That trustworthy person will then assign those stories at random among the contestants, who then post them in the workshop without knowing who they belong to.
How's this sounding?
- Uh, okay...
So I wrote that and did not realize that Fritz Fucking Wolfe had already written it just before me. Just so everybody knows, every good idea that Fritz has was mine first. Sometimes it was my idea first several weeks after he had it.
- Whatever works, but if someone's only going to judge/review based on popularity... then why are they here?
"Okay. The contestants will all send their stories in to a trustworthy person. That trustworthy person will then assign those stories at random among the contestants, who then post them in the workshop without knowing who they belong to."
Also, scary. Wait, one more thing, (like Columbo) then how do you manage the prompts? Because we know who is battling who and what prompt they have, so it will be sort of easy to guess, right?
So we have to have someone PM us the prompts and not tell us who we are battling.
Can you even attach a document in a PM? I don't think you can.
"Can you even attach a document in a PM? I don't think you can."
Well, obviously we can email it if we need to.
No, the document handling would have to be done via some kind of standard email. The prompts could be PM then.
@Rian: He does have a valid point. We all know the review process is pretty unbiased. We all give our all in the workshop. But the polls would be a different story. It would be pretty easy to introduce bias there.
- Okay. I see what you mean.
Well, obviously we can email it if we need to
Didnt mean to open a can of worms. Just striving for fairness. What moon says is true in an ideal world. But ive yet to find ideal out in the world i live in (except for my wife - she is awesome). I dont know about prompts. Havent read the details.
And then, after the polls, the winner can step out of the shadows and claim victory. AT which point the next "bracket" can be revealed - sort of. But all the assigning will be in secret up until the end.
I think this could work.
But we need someone to co-ordinate this from the outside.
Dude, you've got a pond in your backyard. That is also ideal. And me. I am ideal.
Didnt mean to open a can of worms.
- No can of worms. I tend to question things. Some people answer with something useful, some don't. Hey, I'm in and however it works is fine with me.
The brackets could always be public, unless I'm missing something. It's just the prompts we would have to hide. And the prompts would probably have to be included in the submissions so reviewers and voters would know the writers stuck to their assignment.
@Laurance: You're on, motherfucker.
Utah - you are right, the bracket could be shown, but not the prompt.
So it looks like we're getting this worked out. Unless Kirk comes up with something easier, which I'm totally okay with.
Who's the guy that wrote the Tucker Max like story? I want that guy to enter.
And me. I am ideal.
And me. I am ideal.
Not meaning that you have me. Because you don't. That would be weird.
He doesn't have me.
@Moon it was Andrew Logandale, and I don't think he's coming back.
- Damn... Oh well.
if we're posting up rough drafts then we can't ever be blind or double-blind. the only way we could do it would be to set it up as a random set of brackets, no seedings, and there would only be one story, doing a new story each week would be way too complicated.
i think we just have to trust that people are honest. there isn't $500 at the end of this, only pride.
Richard, I do think we've engineered a way around all that. Unless you've found some flaw in the logic. In which case, preach brotha-man!
I am inclined to agree with you on the group-trust thing. But I will address the concerns people have and see if we can find a reasonable resolution before dashing those concerns against the hard-scrabble of my apathy.
What's going on in here?
Is this correct:
We create our brackets.
A Third party PMs prompts to everyone (obviously pairs get the same prompt)
Rough drafts are emailed to the 3rd party
3rd party emails them to a different contestant without any identifying markers on them.
Contestants post stories for review.
Repeat for final draft.
Poll is created byy 3rd party.
Winners go - aha!
@Renfield: are you posting that because you want on the contestant list?
@Avery: I think you pretty well have the process. I'm going to think about it some more, and I'd like the rest of you to do the same. Does this seem like something this contest needs? That's the main question. I definitely understand the concern for bias. I'm just wondering if that is one that is truly weighty to our goals here. And I'd really like it if some of our newer members would weigh in with their opinions here as well.
@Fritz: thanks for bringing up an important issue with the contest. Even if we don't wind up creating the double-blind system, it's at least something we've considered pretty thoroughly.
I can be your outlier person, I don't care who wins so if you need help let me know. All that matters is the writing, not friendship. I learned this editing the anthology, trust me I learned this the hard way because I had to make a secret list of stories that will be cut if a publisher asks me to shorten it and I like the people on this list.
^ah. so the brackets won't have names, just #1 vs #8. and we'll repeat that every round? i say we just eliminate the rough draft part. we can all work on stories without a groupthink, yeah? we're going to war here, so wo/man up and write the damn story. we could cut the time by half, otherwise it's going to be 20 weeks for this competition.
@Alien. Thanks man. We'll continue to bat this around for a few days.
@Everybody: Richard has a good point as well. What do you all think about this? It would definitely cut the time in half. I'd call it a week to write the story, then a week for the poll.
It has its advantages. Cuts the contest from 5 months to 10 weeks. Makes us dig a bit deeper. Less possibility of attrition due to bored waiting. And makes us visit the desk with more frequency for the course of the contest.
I have to admit, I'm leaning toward this idea. What do you guys think?
When does the whole process start and if each round is a couple weeks how long do you project this to take? edit: oh, you just answered that.
I'll have to rematch Matt in Thunderdome before this but if I make time for this ahead of time I'll jump in.