Sound's picture
Sound from Azusa, CA is reading Greener Pastures by Michael Wehunt January 28, 2013 - 7:00pm

So...I'm toying with the idea of merging the concept (and protagonists) of two stories into one novel. Both stories have a lot of room to be expanded, I think. The first story being "All The Love In The World", and the second being "The Black Spot"

I think most of it would be first person, but I'd want to include third person peppered in when needed..

Any tips for a newbie who's going to try to write a novel for the first time? Is mixing povs ok? Never really done it before so I'm curious of your thoughts. If you haven't written a novel, or aren't in the process of writing one, offer up suggestions anyway! Chances are you've still written a longer story than me and your opinions could be of help. 

Thanks in advance! 

 

Emma C's picture
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Emma C from Los Angeles is reading Black Spire by Delilah Dawson January 29, 2013 - 12:00am

Hey, Sound! 

I'm still working on my first, but if I've learned anything it's that the first draft isn't the only draft. The most important thing is getting that novel out of you and onto the page; you can smooth out style, change POV, tidy it up during the revision process. Write it the way it speaks to you now.

Regarding mixing POVs, I don't see why mixing them would be an issue, as long as it's done well (see above, revision being key). The important thing is to arrange it so it makes sense: alternate from chapter to chapter, or space one evenly throughout. Use prologue or epilogue, or, as I've done, insert an "interlude" between two halves of the novel. I'm keen on symmetry. I employed a style where POV changed to 3p limited during the interlude on a kind of hinge between beginning and end (echoing the hinge within the plot at that point). Originally I wrote that chapter to clear up some confusion created by my 1p narration. It felt lazy, but now I'm convinced it works, and my readers have agreed so far.

The toughest thing for me is self-editing while writing; I tend to start fixing and focusing on the small stuff while still working on a first draft, rather than looking at the big picture. There's time for that later. 

If you get stuck, pick up somewhere you're not stuck, even if it's going from beginning to end. If you're struck with inspiration for a scene or dialogue, write it, and you'll find a place for it eventually.

It's late and I hope at least some of this makes sense and/or helps. Good luck!

 
Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 29, 2013 - 2:05am

Just write it. Worst that happens is a few chapters in you ditch it and go back to the original stories.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's Digest January 29, 2013 - 4:21am

What's up buddy

I'm gonna piggyback off a couple of things Em mentioned. I'm also in the stages of writing my first novel/novella, actually two if you want to be technical about it.

Self-editing is probably the biggest issue I have. One thing I've learned, and really only learned this recently, is trying to get that 1st chapter perfect before moving forward. I had this idea that if everything in chapter one was perfect then I everything to follow would come easily and I wouldn't have any glaring plot holes. It's a collossal waste of time. I have piles of first chapter drafts. Like Em said, just write it and revise later.

If you can, outline in some way. I do not do this and it can become a real pain in the ass. I've tried to outline, but I hate it and feel like I'm just wasting time even though I know it's not a waste of time. I'm just set in my ways and don't want to change. I like the idea of not knowing where my story is going and finding out what happens as I write. I know the beginning, and I know the end, but I can't tell you what happens between the two. Keeps it fun and fresh for me, but can also be very frustrating. I'd highly suggest not going that route.

Carly Berg's picture
Carly Berg from USA is reading Story Prompts That Work by Carly Berg is now available at Amazon January 29, 2013 - 5:32am

I finished a novel years ago, on beginner's luck, I guess. After that, I had a string of them that died somewhere around the 1/4 to 1/2 mark. I wouldn't do it again without some kind of structure in place, because all the false starts were very discouraging. I like the story board with 8 plot points, and then using the different colored post-its or not for more or less pre-planned detail. You can always change it up as you go but that way you've got something to go on, at least. YMMV. Good luck with it!

http://teacherwriter.net/2012/01/11/tips-for-writers-what-use-is-a-storyboard/

Carly Berg's picture
Carly Berg from USA is reading Story Prompts That Work by Carly Berg is now available at Amazon January 29, 2013 - 6:17am

P.S. A couple of others, if you're looking for structure. The Snowflake Method:

http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/art/snowflake.php

 

And (ooh, this one is strict and detailed!) The Marshall Plan, a book by agent Evan Marshall:

http://www.amazon.com/Marshall-Plan-Novel-Writing/dp/1582970629

 

After I finish my book of flash stories, I plan to do a composite novel, interrelated stories set in the same town and under a loose overlying story arc. Oh yeah, cheating!  :)

 

Carly Berg's picture
Carly Berg from USA is reading Story Prompts That Work by Carly Berg is now available at Amazon January 29, 2013 - 5:36am

About the POV switches, I think a novel allows plenty of room for that, and no problem if one character is first person and others are third. To keep the reader from getting confused and dizzy, though, I'd consider only one POV per chapter or at least not too many short POV shifts.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters January 29, 2013 - 6:27am

Back at the end of 2011 I wrote a book.  It was really bad.  The point is, I wrote every single day at a set time and pushed forward and completed it.  But I was a pretty bad writer.

Now I'm an amazing writer, but I never write.  I can't seem to get these things to line up. 

My advice is that you should be an amazing writer and write everyday.  Even if you delete it the next day.

Outlines: Not for me.  If I outline too much things get stale and I get bored.  The project I'm working on now requires a little more planning than I like, which is why I get bored with it sometimes.  That's my own problem.  But if you don't have an ending, don't worry.  Just keep writing. 

Don't worry about what a novel has to be or how long or the length of a chapter or any of that.  It needs to be good writing with an interesting plot.  Just worry about that. 

Change the POV if you want.  Just make it a chapter break so everyone can follow you around.

Sound's picture
Sound from Azusa, CA is reading Greener Pastures by Michael Wehunt January 29, 2013 - 9:02am

Thanks guys!

I think my biggest obstacle will be not nit picking everything as I finish chapters. Right now, with short stories, I tend to write a chunk, then re-read from the beginning to check for flow, typos, awkward sentence structure, etc. It usually makes for a very well put together first draft for short stories, but I can see how that can kill a novel rather quickly.

I think I'll try a few major plot points, like Carly suggested, and then go with the flow between them.

Not sure I'm an amazing writer yet, and writing daily will be a challenge, but I think I'm ready to give it a try.

Emma C's picture
Class Facilitator
Emma C from Los Angeles is reading Black Spire by Delilah Dawson January 29, 2013 - 9:24am

I've found that if you set a goal to write daily, don't set a word count goal (at least not at first). It can end up keeping you from writing because you "don't have time". Writing can be a page, a sentence, some rough dialogue. If you keep it in those terms it's a lot easier to make time to write, and keep from discouraging yourself.

 
R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's Digest January 29, 2013 - 9:29am

Save, save and save more! Idk how much work I've lost because I didn't save it. For the love of God, save!!!

Emma C's picture
Class Facilitator
Emma C from Los Angeles is reading Black Spire by Delilah Dawson January 29, 2013 - 10:05am

AND back up! Constantly! My Time Machine is the best investment I've made, and I've had to retrieve over-edited or accidentally deleted work more than once (including some winning war stories).

 
OtisTheBulldog's picture
OtisTheBulldog from Somerville, MA is reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz January 29, 2013 - 10:37am

I'm in the midst of my first one and I'm even taking a workshop class locally. But the gist is always the same, get that first draft done. Some like to outline profusely. Some like to fly by the seat of their pants. There is no right or wrong answer and that's only something you figure out for yourself.

Me - I have a loose 3 act structure with some major events that I know are going to happen. I consider those anchors in a sense. I'm leading up to them and then dealing with the results of it. Of course, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Nothing is set in stone.

When I'm feeling directionless, I won't write the novel, but I might write something from a characters perspectives. An essay on what they want, their fears, that sort of shit.

I'll also second Emma's suggestion of something like Time Machine. It's invaluable. I have to figure out some sort of cloud service too, in the unlikely event of a fire.

Sound's picture
Sound from Azusa, CA is reading Greener Pastures by Michael Wehunt January 29, 2013 - 10:47am

I've had one horror story already, which prompted me to get a dropbox account AND back up my stuff on iCloud, and a flashdrive. I almost broke down in tears until I realized I had workshopped them all here. Just had to PM a few users to see if they saved copies. So yes, save, save, save.

And save.

I think I will do that. The thought of setting a wordcount scares me, but a goal of just writing something, anything, sounds doable.

WendellB's picture
WendellB from New Orleans. Now, Southern Califronia is reading Meditation for Multi-Taskers January 30, 2013 - 1:08pm

I'm working on my second novel and I find the biggest challenge is working on it every day. I get nervous if I don't work on some part of it every day. I say, work urgently and consistently, become a machine, and you'll at least find the success of having a finished novel. After that, you gotta sell it.

voodoo_em's picture
voodoo_em from England is reading All the books by Ira Levin January 31, 2013 - 3:11am

So far my only novel idea lives happily floating around in my head, some of it made it in to a short story for WAR 1 (Victims), some of it appears in the beginnings of another short story that I haven't even finished or work shopped yet (The Breath of a Monster). This ideas been building for two or so years and I'm not rushing into it, I figure I still have so much to learn. Probably I'll carry on writing plot points or chapters in to short stories until I figure out how to tie them all in to a big fat knot of a novel. Which works well if you're jumping perspectives or going in to flashbacks. Probably I'm not going to write this in the order it may end up either.

As far as planning goes; mostly I don't. What I do have is a "word vomit" notebook (as in the old skool spiral bound paper kind), and this is where I jot down plot thought or ideas, and also random bits of dialogue that come to me when I'm walking the dogs, or to work, or doing house work. It's not unusual for me to play out an entire scene of dialogue in my head while doing something that is completely not writing or near my laptop.

Point is, relax. Have fun with it. Don't overwork it, keep it fresh. Don't give yourself boundaries and order, you think they film the scenes of a movie in the order they end up? Do whatever works for you :)

Good luck.

 

Kristin Harding's picture
Kristin Harding from Portland, OR is reading The Turn of the Screw February 2, 2013 - 11:26am

I'm visiting this thread mostly because i'm looking for tips myself, having (pretty much) never written a novel (I mean, that one didn't count).

I'm working on one now and learning as I go.  So I'm just sharing advice from others.  2 particular competing pieces of advice come to mind:

1. Start with character.  Get to know the character really well and then put her in a situation and watch what she does.

2. Start with structure, and then put the character and situation there.  Because if you don't know what's going to happen the whole time, it's going to show.

A lot of writers I respect have said the first thing... but I think right now I fall into camp #2.  I outline like crazy.  I don't want to set a word down if I don't know where I'm going with it.  But I've never written a novel so you shouldn't necessarily listen to me.

I also really like Palahniuk's advice to take another novel and imitate its structure.  So you know you've got a skeleton that walks.  Maybe look at a few novels that use multiple povs and see how it was done?  I'm thinking of Faulkner.  And I'm also thinking of Stephen King.  (Personally, I had to put those two in different sentences-- though you may not feel the same ;) )

 

This site (one of my weekly must-reads) offers up amazing advice on writing and thinking from some of the greatest writers ever.  Hopefully I can put it to use! 

Good luck, let me know how it goes!