General Discussion : Things we would like see added to litreactor, just saying...

@Jeff Richard Thomas and Gordon Highland and Nik Korpon barely if ever have used this particular workshop, though. They've been in it long enough and getting good publications that they have their trusted beta readers and the confidence to send stuff out without too many eyes on it. I agree pretty much with your sentiment though. I think there's people that are new to writing, people new to workshopping, and you know pretty solid writers with just kind of broken stories; that's what's in the workshop. I don't like some idea of giving shit reviewers a pass, that's the opposite of why a workshop is valuable. All the learning taking place in a workshop is from reading and writing reviews. If someone puts all their focus into giving the most informed and helpful review they can, that's precisely where they are going to make strides in writing mechanics. Not just writing crap stories over and over again. Everything else, I'm right with you. I think I've got a good relationship with the workshop wherein I know I have a couple guys reviewing who are going to give me reliably good feedback all day, I know my reviews for them are going to be everything I possibly have ever learned about writing, the only weakness is my shitty ass stupid stories. That's a good ratio for workshopping. Otherwise there'd be no need for the whole thing.

With a random workshop like we have I view it more as a way to get some fresh eyes on something that I'm having trouble with that my normal beta readers aren't able to help with (mostly because I asked them to read something else). It is a great tool, but I mainly look at it as for practice revising, doing my LBLs on my own work kind of thing.

There's a lot to question in the review system.

How many LBLs do you need? Once you get the one with the grammar comb, eveything else could be communicated w/o an attachment. Maybe there could be a tipping system, with a per-review point cap to prevent farming, instead of rating a review. You could just toss however many points you thought it was worth. One point for a cursory "I read it and it sucked/ruled." Two for some actual advice. Three, four, five for truly insightful and detailed analysis.

As it is, I think the workshop does its job. It could be changed, but there would be ways to exploit it no matter how it's designed. Its usefulness (as people have said) depends on the goals of the writer and the attitudes of the reviewers.

Also, I would have no problem reviewing a bundle of flash stories as one submission. I've thought about doing that myself. Make it clear that's what is in the file, and I think people would be no less likely to review it than a 5000-word first chapter.

I would like the cost/rewards to be based on the length of what you are reviewing. 3 points for a 10 line poem, 1 for any review of it, that kind of thing not saying has to be those numbers. Right now it is the same to do a haiku and a novella.

Does it feel chilly in here now?

Um, no. The only part of Phil's post I found off-putting was the fact he said he wouldn't "interfere," when I thought he was one of the founders. "Why would he not interfere?" I wondered.

I wouldn't interfere because I agreed, with Dennis and Kirk, that I wasn't going to have that kind of involvement. I don't make decisions, I don't hire people, and I don't get consulted except on any big "huge" changes.

Basically, beyond the first few months, and all the time leading up to the launch, my "admin" role at LitReactor has been as limited as possible. I have way, way too many other things to do for me to get actively involved — especialy when the people who do run it are doing a better job than I could. I'm not cut out for this kind of stuff.

Word, dude.

What I would like to see changed is the point system. It doesn't work with the way I like to write so I may have to find a different board. I write a couple of flash stories a week, sometimes more. I like to get them critiqued and out quick.

There are a lot of flash fiction submissions coming up, Carly.  You'll have plenty of points pretty soon.  It does take some dedication, but I've learned as much from DOING critiques as I've learned from getting critiques.  It's guarenteed to make you a better writer.  

Don't leave.  

Thanks.

@Liana - I'd agree, but for practical reasons. I know some people here like Phil are just better writers then me, and some I won't call out because that would be a jerk move are worse. That doesn't mean that we all want the same type of feed back.

Also, how do you judge quality on that? I don't mean that in the stupid 'oh it is all subjective' way, but in a literal 'is our standard useful' way. Do we go by the quality of final draft? I can see the logic, but is that useful? Do we go by the quality of what they submit? Again I can see the logic, but is that useful? Because I've seen writers before whose first draft looked like a stupid gorilla wrote it during a 3 day bender, then after me/others making a few basic suggestions used either a lot of skill (or literal physics breaking magic) to turn into something wonderful.

That's the exact category I was looking for, Jeff!

I want to start another thread if possible, and title it, "Who is a writer?"

There was actually an old discussion that Kirk started where members could express concerns and seem to remember Kirk being quite involved in the further discussion. I think why no actual big changes to the workshop system is that no one has really come to a consensus on what definitely doesn't work about it, and most of the problems people bring up could be cured by their modifying their own usage of the workshop to where it's not so overwhelming, rather than changing everything for everybody.

On the topic of the point system: How would you suggest it be made better, Carly? I'm particularly curious, if you were to change the point requirements, how many points (using the current allocation system) do you think you should be required to earn before you have enough to post?

Simply awarding more points or requiring fewer doesn't really solve the issue if it is just being done to accommodate someone like yourself who wants to bang out 250-500 words every day. No matter what, you're going to have to read and review other's work.

You're in a unique place where I'm not sure what the best thing for us to do is shy of creating an entirely separate system/procedure for flash. Which is something that I'm not excited about doing because my immediate thoughts tell me that it makes everything overly complex.

We specifically run a give & get system so that people don't flood the submissions as fast as they can jot them down and though there has been discussion about it in the past, I don't know that anyone has had a better idea and from the feedback that we get most people like that format. We've run the same essential system with minor variances for more than 5 years and generally it has been successful. But if we can do a better job of cracking the nut, I'm happy to do it.

Kirk, of course you have to read and review other people's work to get the same back, I wouldn't dispute that. But, it also has to be an amount that is reasonable, not a novel's worth of critiques every week to post two flash stories. I just can't do it. I could bundle them, but that slows me down significantly when the whole reason I enjoy flash is I like the quickness. I'd rather get them a different way then. It's not an unreasonable idea, it just isn't for me. But then, I can't imagine I'm the only one who finds it not workable to use a point exchange system where the unit of exchange used is so extremely broad. Suggestions? I was on a board that had no point system at all and I thought it worked better. In fact, I thought it was surprisingly good. Another did have the categories and that worked well, too. At least there was some kind of differentiation between posting/critiquing a poem and a novella. Those are two suggestions. Or, perhaps just different amounts of points to pay and to earn by length, one point for each thousand words, both ways, something like that. But if you think it works well then that's it. Thanks for your consideration and quick reply. Much appreciated.

I think a flash section would be pretty incredible.  I'd still use the points system for it, if possible, but only 5 points to submit, or something.  It would make for an interesting addition to the workshop.  If it were moderated, then anything that's over 1000 words could automatically cost 15 points (like the normal workshop submission).  

You could also put a sliding scale for submissions, but the coding would probably be even harder.  Something like 5 points = 1000 words.  10 points = 2000 words.  15 points = 2,500 - 9,000 words ( 3,000 seeming to be the average), 50 points = 10,000+ words.

Policing having everyone put in their actual word count would be difficult, so it would probably have to be moderated, but I posted a novella and got very helpful reviews on it.  If it had cost me 100 points, I still would have done it.

I don't think Lit Reactor should be all about flash at all, but it definitly is getting a large amount of flash writers who love the challenge of word economy combined with complete stories.

I love Lit Reactor the way it is, though.  So any changes are just icing on top of icing on top of ice-cream cake.

I wouldn't like dumping text into the site for the reasons you've stated. But also as a reviewer, for a couple reasons. First and foremost, the LBLs which we've come to know and love and count on. I also like downloading a writer's story to my laptop and going to coffee shops or libraries where they don't necessarily have free Wi-Fi and reading and reviewing there. It's nice not being tethered to the internet.

I've got some updates going in soon. I should be able to add a "word count" field to that list.

I'm not going to say what you post is bad because I don't know what your writing process is like. But I will make the argument that burning out 1000 words then immediately posting it for feedback isn't really what we've ever considered the workshop to be about. It was always kind of designed to help people refine ideas and drafts. Which, I think by their nature, is a little less immediate of a process. And you're probably correct, that is not a flow that is geared towards flash. 

It still doesn't solve your unique problem, sadly

Kirk, to clarify, honestly, virtually all of my pieces get published. I do not "burn out" rough drafts and slap them up there willy nilly for review. I feel that critiquing is a valuable resource, and especially when the cost is so very high, it wouldn't even make sense for me to do that. I go through them several times and also with my husband, who helps me, first. There is no reason at all that I should work slower. That is not that much to write in a week. I am not sure why you feel that I am a unique user. I would think I'm more rather the usual. However, of course, those who rarely use the system would probably not have many problems working with any system. Also, a good percentage of the stories are flash. It certainly isn't an outlier, either, these days.

So, I would not think I'm an outlier with a unique situation, but again, I'm not on that end. I do wonder if people simply work with what's available or go elsewhere, though. Especially since a good number of them may not have been on any other boards and therefore don't have anything to compare it with. That's just to bring up the possibility that even if you haven't heard many complaints, that still doesn't mean the system is equitable- it really can't be, just look at the spread there. Of course that will be more of an issue for the ones who actually use it more. I'm just talking about a system that has some kind of reasonable match up between what is put in and what is received. As I said, it simply isn't that, at all.

Anyway, just wanted to clarify. But I'm just one person on here, so I'll leave it to the rest now. Thanks for considering.

I'm still curious though, what work load would you consider fair for the amount of stuff you would like to post? 

Thanks, Kirk.

As I said (or maybe I revised after you read it, I revise a lot, lol) I think a fair system would be that it costs 1 point per thousand words to put a story up for review, and you get 1 point per thousand words for giving a review. The points being done in even thousands, it doesn't have to be word for word. So a story of 1 word to 1,000 words costs one point, and you get one point for reviewing it. 1,001 to 2, 000 is two points both ways, etcetera.

Of course, I can't know how that would shake out for sure, but it sounds right to me.

Thanks again for considering. 

 I suggest also that the reviewer automatically gets the full points, one size fits all, unless the one who receives it finds it scant enough or rude enough to report and let a moderator decide.

- This would essentially cause the same issues you're having. I tend to give detailed reviews along with detailed LBLs. A 2500 word story can take me up to three hours to LBL and review. Giving the person who says, 'Hey, great story.' the same amount of points for some one who's taken the time and effort to really try to help someone out just seems, well, not fair. And, unless the review is overly rude, how many people would actually report it to a moderator for their reveiw? Seems like a collossal pain in the ass to me. I understand your frustration with having to review 2k word stories while you're only submitting 1k word stories and receiving the same amount of points, but I really think the problem was solved when someone mentioned lumping two or three ff pieces into one document. I, and a lot of others here, submit stories every few weeks or so. Sometimes we'll get on a kick (as I've been lately trying to polish up stories for publication) and submit a couple in a week or two. Even then, though, I'm still only submitting a story every couple of weeks versus every couple of days. We continue to review and let our points build. I have enough points right now to submit around fifteen stories. In the year and a half that I've been here I think I've only submitted that many stories. I don't LBL and review to simply gain points so I can submit my next story. I reveiw because it's a great learning experience for me. Howie said it best:   It does take some dedication, but I've learned as much from DOING critiques as I've learned from getting critiques.  It's guarenteed to make you a better writer.  That's why I'm here, to be a better writer, and learning to be a better writer is helping out other writers. My suggestion, and this is just me being completely honest, would be to do some reviews and not submit for awhile. Let your points grow. 

I don't want you to leave, either. You're a great writer and reviewer, but this is a site designed for all types of writers. Some write novels. Some write short stories and some write flash. But to put any one of the three in a category all their own will only create more problems. Your stories receive more reviews than the average writer on here because they are ff pieces. I would better understand your argument if you were only getting two reviews and having to put out five to gain more points. 

My suggestion for all of this is to add one more point value. Add 5 points. 99% of the time I give three points, despite the content of the review and/or LBL. I think if the reviewer has taken the time to read and make comments, that alone is worth three points. But, sometimes those reviews aren't all that helpful, but I know the time spent and awarding one or two points doesn't jive with me. 

Well, I'm just one customer, but that's my feedback on the structure of the workshop, for what it's worth and from having several other boards to compare it with. I'm going to find a second board for my writing overflow and stick around for the rest of the goodies, so I'm covered, personally. Thanks, guys.

@Kirk - Would upseting people who view formatting as vital, and them leaving, not be the start of the site attracting a lot more people who are focused on writing? I'm joking. Mostly anyway.

I think the writer's agenda is a crucial element in the workshopping experience. I always make sure to let my reader know my own concerns about my work to give them a guide for what type of advice I'm looking for. I also make sure to read other writer's agendas so I can address their own concerns. When there isn't an agenda, or they just ask for general responses, I still do lbl's and just try to point out the portions of the story that don't work for me personally.

Oh, also more badges/achievements or whatever they are. Those are cooooool. Remember when atari would mail you badges if you took a pic of your high-scoring game? I wish I still had mine.