Okay having passed from absolute newbie to able grunt - some achievements, some points, some reviews, some postings, some workshop as I head for a class, still in the future somewhere, I am starting to feel more at home and perhaps a little bit fiesty, well that may be left over from the liquor dump last night, but the pounding head certainly makes me a little more direct - I have started to get the feel for this place and its denizens.
In other words now I want more. From the environment itself. I've been taught all my life that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Outright theft is how you get ahead. Do the other guy first before he gets the idea to do you.
Ooooh, brain fart, I should do a poll too. Later. Maybe one of the other revolutionaries will beat me to it though I doubt it, everyone is too deep into the rut. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.
I want a WALL to declare my state of mind. Not something putzy either, something creative, imaginative that can be declared right up there with my name. It looks like there is some facility for form creation in this software let's get out there and push the limits. I'm not talking about self limiting posts where a topic is declared but something hard coded like Twitter Tweets at 140 characters. Maybe just 25 or something so we don't have to suffer the vagaries of those who cannot in a limited stretch explain themselves like the word association thread where descriptive add ons creep in along with side conversation.
As for hard coding, has anyone ever tried the writing exercise where you limit your characters to 52 per line or 63 or 29? How about a fifty line competition form that only allows a set character limit? You want some help rewriting or editing or choosing words? Want to be forced to think? To practice? You can add your damn prompts if you want but I'd like a war where it is follow the leader. Maybe you will be able to learn something about the tenor and tone of voice that emerges from that type of exercise.
Where is IRC in all of this? Real time chat! I can't hear your voices clearly. Is everyone afraid if they cannot take time to think that they will be exposed as slow deliberate writers? What about the ephemeral fast paced thinkers always looking clumsy and slow when spit on the spear of a long thought or fully referenced reply. Can we not talk, people?
Yes, it is a new year and we aren't extinct, despite the hopes and prayers of everyone that engages in such nihilism. Let's think of new things and redouble our efforts at old tried and true things but above all else keep writing.
Where is IRC in all of this? Real time chat!
We tried THIS for awhile, but it never really caught on. You're welcome to revive it if you think anyone wants to talk to you.
God damn. Word economy, fport. Word economy. I feel like I should get points just for reading all that and post an LBL.
God damn. Word economy, fport. Word economy. I feel like I should get points just for reading all that and post an LBL.
- Matt and his musings. Gotta love it.
However the the 'if you think anyone wants to talk to you' though had a harder sharper edge to it, catch you on a bad day? If so, my apologies.
- Nope. Just how Jessica is. The good thing about her, though, is that she can take it just as much as she dishes it out. But, be careful, her wit is uncanny. You'll get used it.
There is THIS. Does that help?
Unable (and/or unwilling) to afford $400 classes, it'd be nice if I could simply purchase the course materials/lectures from each class. I imagine that might only cost the price of a small book, whereas adding the workshop portion w/ author feedback seems to inflate it a few hundred dollars. And yes, there's the conference calls, but I only want the Cliff Notes.
fport is cool. 25 charact
I want a browser based LBL system ala Scribophile. I told Kirk about this at the meetup, but I don't see it yet. Maybe if everyone clambors for it, it'll happen.
I've tried IRC with writers before as a sort of Nanowrimo write-in type thing. I'm not sure anyone but me ever got anything done, and that was mostly because I ignored everyone. It just sort of turned in to a time suck. But hey, if people want to try it, I would be in, occasionally.
@Avery and Matt I'm only saying this to be nice: please stop beating up the new kid. We scare people off that way.
What's IRC? I saw that acronym a lot when I first started and I still don't know what the fuck it means.
@Court- not my intent.
@fport, word economy is saying what's needed without saying what isn't; even Faulkner in all his flourish glory left out the superfluous. I would also suggest journaling since that appears how you work out things. It would also be a good idea to search before posting
To address your overall question, Litreactor is fine.
I was trying to be fucking helpful...
Why would we have a wall for "declaring state of mind"? That's such a random thing to suggest from a forum & workshop. I want to go on record as saying I am satisfied and content with the way that LitReactor is not facebook.
As for your ideas for writing challenges--most of the challenges here are user generated, so if you want to see it happen, make it happen. I'm sure that in a group this large you will find enough people who want to try it out.
As for chat--yeah. It kind of sucked when it was going on. It turned into a very specific group of chat regulars and no one else in there... and as Jack said about his experience with IRC chat... was a time suck more than anything else.
Why would we have a wall for "declaring state of mind"? That's such a random thing to suggest from a forum & workshop. I want to go on record as saying I am satisfied and content with the way that LitReactor is not facebook.
Agree. That's what Twitter and Facebook are for and part of the reason why you're able to attach links on your profile to those social networking groups. If LitReactor members find you interesting enough to want to see your "state of mind" then they'll follow you.
No need for Kirk to bust his ass setting that up here.
"What's IRC? I saw that acronym a lot when I first started and I still don't know what the fuck it means."
Internet Relay Chat. It's been around since the late 80's, but it isn't exactly commonly used. When I was playing Counter-Strike, it was a way to build fanbases. Having people in your IRC was sort of like having followers on Twitter. Your goal was to have as many idlers as possible to look good to sponsors.
But it is also good for people who want to set up a chatroom for one thing or another. You just join an open server and you can make any channel you want. Then you can designate "ops" who are sort of like moderators.
I haven't used it much since retiring from Counter-Strike, but there was a time when I was connected to IRC 24 hours a day.
Jack that's hilarious - I used to idle a bazillion irc teamchans when I played cs. Strictly Cal-O, though, I was a baddie.
I was trying to be helpful, too, not ruffle feathers. "if you think anyone wants to talk to you" seemed harsh. Please don't bite my head off, either.
Yeah, I idled a bunch of channels too. We were in three different leagues, CAL-M, USGL-I and were the top ranked team in OGL for awhile. Never made any actual money playing, but we got some free stuff. I quit when my ex-wife came in and said it was either the game or her. She gave me a couple of days to think about it. Honestly, if we hadn't already been married, my decision might have been different, which says something about my level of addiction. I hopped on a couple of times after I quit when she was at work. One day, she came home early and caught me in the act. I couldn't have gotten a worse reaction if I were on top of another woman. Joke was on me though, I've been divorced for four years and people are still playing Counter-Strike. At one point I was easily playing eight hours a day.
Wow, nice! That is awesome--and any woman that can't appreciate the sheer addictive brilliance of cs obviously has some screws loose to begin with.
Unable (and/or unwilling) to afford $400 classes, it'd be nice if I could simply purchase the course materials/lectures from each class. I imagine that might only cost the price of a small book, whereas adding the workshop portion w/ author feedback seems to inflate it a few hundred dollars. And yes, there's the conference calls, but I only want the Cliff Notes.
I don't think it would really work. The classes I have taken here were lectures paired with discussions that lead to the assignment and feedback. I imagine that making the lectures available to the general public would involve the same amount of work as publishing an actual book, and the authors who wrote them may want comission for that. It seems like a hell of a pain in the ass for something that likely wouldn't be all that beneficial without the discussion (which includes involvement from the instructor) and the feedback.
I took one class, and it was and will be my last. The lectures were the most helpful part of the course for me, but not worth the three digit price tag. The essays alone (just like those written by Clevenger and Palahniuk) were very instructive. For example, I don't need Palahniuk to have a discussion about Submerging the 'I'. His essay by itself is just dandy and self-explanatory. In other words, the discussions you mention, as well as the workshop, felt periphery. But I agree with you in that the writer/author of the lectures should receive compensation, the same as anyone who sells material online should. No issue there. Regarding it being the same amount of work as publishing an actual book, I'm not so sure. I only received one two-to-three page lecture per week. Most books tend to be upwards of 200-400 pages.
1) Leave me out of this.
2) I didn't say all the good conversations have been had, I said that Americans are tired of conversations about water boarding.
I want to see more writing related stuff.
Just saying.
Well it was shorter.
Well thanks for trying.
Y'all like litreactor just as it is. And don't get us wrong we like it too, that's not a problem is it, when I assume the royal plural, Pluralis Majestatis and all?
To whom is "we" referring to? Not that I mind any of your concerns, but I find it strange when people enter a pretty well defined system and start demanding change without doing the proper research. If it weren't a single voice speaking loudly (positing such a manifesto without even some base crowd-sourcing of interest) I'm sure the higher-ups have considered the ideas if not previously acted on them.
And, I don't think it's entirely disrespect with people kind of half-responding to you and saying you talk too much, just legitimately it's kind of hard to follow what you're saying. I find the same thing with Dwayne's sort of scat poetry style of diction, though I mule over his thoughts and usually find little of worth. You seem like an intelligent and likable guy; honestly, it's hard to get what you're saying half the time and I'm prone to skim.
I took one class, and it was and will be my last. The lectures were the most helpful part of the course for me, but not worth the three digit price tag.
There are plenty of books like that out there in the world, bro. If you want to work closely with respected authors and get their one-on-one feedback, that's pretty much the idea of writing workshops. The system of workshops has existed long before this site came into being, so it's how professional writers do their business. If you can't justify the money and the work needed for a class, then you should try to justify living without the knowledge you'd gain. If they printed books of essays by the instructors here, that'd be great, but usually with the kind of writers and editors that do workshops regularly they don't print their essays, you know, to incourage people to take their class. It's business. Sorry.
Apology unnecessary, unless you're an instructor, of course. The thread was things we'd like to see at LitReactor. Me, I'd like to read Clevenger's essays without shelling out all my rent money. Far as I know, his aren't available in any book format. But yes, lots of books out there exist with writing essays. Correct. If only I could get SGJ's.
EDIT: If the workshop and author feedback is as invaluable as you say/imply, then selling the essays should have little change on class enrollment.
If the workshop and author feedback is as invaluable as you say/imply, then selling the essays should have little change on class enrollment.
Except that there are a fair number of people who just want to get something cheap--if they get the essays for free, they probably won't take the class. And whatever, if LitReactor wanted to publish the essays that would be their problem. I just don't see it being likely. The instructors may not be okay with it, certain classes simply wouldn't work as well, etc.
And this may sound....whatever, but it is what it is-- if you want SGJ's essays THAT bad, why not save up so you'll have the cash next time his class comes up? Then you can have the essays and discussion and feedback from him. I mean, obviously you respect his writing.
@Vonnegut Check...I'm in the same boat, I can't afford any of these classes. I have a full-time job and wouldn't be able to dedicate the time to make them worthwhile if I could afford them. It's tough, but it's how my life is. Until I can convince my girlfriend to work full time and let me be unemployed so that I can write full time, I'll continue to be stuck in this situation.
However, don't decide that THIS is your only option. This is the world wide interwebs, we have access to ANYTHING we could ever dream of. You want movies of tattooed brunette girls dressed in nazi uniforms, smoking cigarettes while pressing the gas pedal of a truck stuck in the mud? It's out there! And so are these authors. Try writing one of them and asking for tips. Ask what they might be able to provide to you for free. Ask if they have any suggestions as to where to find more valuable writing essays. Give it a shot, the worst they could say is no, but you might find yourself with personalized advice based on your specific situation.
Or not...
@Renfield - Look harder, you'll find it.
I mule over his thoughts and usually find little of worth.
Difficult to treasure hunt when you're riding a mule. I'd suggest a donkey. They're lower to the ground and, while stubborn, aren't as stubborn.
@Vonnegut Check
At least LitReactor's doing smaller, cheaper weekend workshops now. Those should be worth checking out. It's also worth just keeping an eye out for more affordable workshops anywhere you can find them, I've been meaning to take one of Michael Knost's workshops myself one of these days and he does his from his blog for a very reasonable price
SGJ didn't really write lectures anyway. His workshop was basically just spitballing with the students and coming up with crazy prompts. Actually the truly amazing and valuable part of SGJ's workshop was, and it changed the way I write critiques ever since, was these video critiques that he did. Where he sits there live and goes through your story line by line and bullshits some aphorisms when he's liking what's going on, or you can watch him try to rework a line of yours or fix the grammar, or you can watch him at the precise moment where your story loses him or the wording fucks him up. It was epiphanic. Stuff like that can't be bottled.
was these video critiques that he did.
That sounds amazing.
What I would like to see changed is the point system. It doesn't work with the way I like to write so I may have to find a different board. I write a couple of flash stories a week, sometimes more. I like to get them critiqued and out quick.
I have to critique at least five stories for every one I post to get the 15 points, and often all that's available to review are many times longer than the stories I post for review. I'm just not getting back anywhere near what what I have to put in because the point system is so primitive. A 250 story and a 2,500 story and a 10,000 word story all cost the same. Times the average story length differences by five or more, two or more times as week, and it is just not workable. I find myself deciding what I'm going to post for review vs. just send out without it, when I've put in many times that effort myself.
My feeling is the critique/review section is the heart of a writing board, the system should work reasonably well, be reasonably equitable. I can't say say that about this system.
About the writer workshops, another option is to pick the book you want to study and invite others on here to join you in a group study of it (if anyone is interested in my upcoming flash study group, see the thread).
Carly,
Since your stories are all so short 1000 words or less. I'd sugest posting 2-3 at a time in the same file. I've done that with poems. If you have six 300 word storries that would be fine too. As far is the waiting is concerned, many of the active reviewers are involved with war and have not had the time we usually spend in the workshop. As soon as I get eliminated I'll probably go back to doing several a week.
Anyway, hope you can figure out a way to make the point system work for you, because I agree if you just post one 500 word story and have to review 5 that 2,500 that is not fair.
I
J.R. makes a good point. Once I'm done with WAR, I'll be back in the workshops (I hope, crazy life permitting).
Who worked fport up? He was just starting to make succinct, clear, well structured posts on these forums, and you had to go stir him up. Haha!
@Carly yeah, multiple stories in one submission would make sense, I don't think it would turn anybody off from reviewing them or anything. 5000-ish word stories take some extra energy to read and review, so maybe somewhere in the 3000 word range would still garner a lot of reviews. That's a good 6 or 7 flash pieces. Another thing is if there's reviewers you're familiar with and work well with them, you can PM or Email them. No need to constrain yourself to just the strictness of one workshop.
Isn't the book study going fine in its own thread? Don't see why it would need a particular affiliation with the workshop proper.
I would be bummed out if carly berg left! Dont go! I've found that here at LR there are 3 types of writers in the workshop:
1. Dilletantes: People who have a neat idea for a story, or have dreams of 'If I write it, they will come', but are pretty stark beginners. They haven't read enough, let alone written enough, to learn effective storytelling. They also love to post gigantic, 15k word novel 'excerpts' or off-the-cuff stream of consciousness blather, trusting that theie enthusiasm will trump their lack of skill. Nothing wrong with this group, they just need practice, honest feedback, more practice, a couple of shots of whiskey, and more practice.
2. Writers who are beginners in the business of storytelling for money/publication. They are polishing the stories they are good at writing, with the occasional experiment in form or style to flex their muscles and see what people think. They fall anywhere between 4-9k hours on the Gladwell 10,000 hour rule. They write good stories, bad ones, and everything in between. Most of the WAR participants are in this group.
3. Writers who know how to write. They know how sentences are constructed, they have obviously spent time working on the craft, they understand how a story is constructed, and they are refining and sharpening. Carly (admittedly, I've seen little of her work and a smattering of reviews, but I am a super-genius, so trust me), Richard Thomas, Gordon Highland, Nik Korpon, et al fall into this group. Sure, there are others, but these are people who are very active AND very good and have have published in known markets.
If you've ever played sports/competetive gaming, you know in order to improve you must play with and against peple better than you. We, as the LR community, need to keep group 3 here and participating so that group 2 can learn, and group 1 can learn from 2. To that end, I suggest point trading: I would be happy to offer people the chance to get their 3 points for giving my stories a quick read and a one-liner (or just the read and a 'Was OK' or 'Burn it and bury it in consecrated earth' or just a word I can rate as 'Very Helpful'). If you can gather a group of 4-5 traders, you can easily earn the 15 points in a matter of an hour. Of course, you would have to negotiate terms with people; I am easy, but other people would likely demand more.
I just looked back at this post and I can't believe how much I went on. I was lucky enough today to have a nice surgeon cut me open and root around inside, so while convalescing they've given me the most delightful medications. Wheeee, this is heavy duty stuff and I am flying. Freeow!