bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 1, 2012 - 2:39pm
I might be... but...
I'm Batman.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedNovember 1, 2012 - 2:48pm
No, I'm Batman. Sorry.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 1, 2012 - 2:49pm
Son of a ....
Bradley Sands
from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten SongsNovember 1, 2012 - 6:24pm
Sometimes people smile. Sometimes people laugh. There's nothing wrong with characters doing the same in fiction (and using those words rather than a synonym). Laughing is fine as long as isn't used to tell the reader when something is supposed to be funny (like a laugh track). If someone smiles, the thing that caused them to smile will help the reader determine the emotion that the character is experiencing. A synonym for "smile" isn't more revealing unless the definition of the word is slightly different/more specific.
Speech tags with either of the two words replacing "said" doesn't work at all, but "he said, smiling." is fine.
MattF
from Tokyo is reading Borges' Collected FictionsNovember 2, 2012 - 2:14am
Rules are your training wheels. They're not for writing. They're for learning how to write.
Once a young writer understands the principles behind the rule (how adverbs might cripple a sentence), it's served its purpose and you can move on, adverbs in hand.
Don't be scared of words.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedNovember 2, 2012 - 4:35am
Wouldn't don't be scare of words be a rule?
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 2, 2012 - 4:58am
I don't think smile and laugh shouldn't be used ever, they just are used as crutches for an emotional response in a lot of stories. I try to point this out and ask if there is another way of showing those emotions (usually happiness) through body language or dialogue.
It's something that pops out of the page at me whenever I see it, so I make a note of it. But, like I said, it's a guideline, not a rule. Maybe I should say 'It's a something to be aware of, not something to be scared of.'
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 2, 2012 - 5:12am
I think that having a large emotional vocabulary that you demonstrate through body language, action, and dialogue is really important. Smiling is body language, but it covers half the emotions someone could be feeling.
Laughter, on the other hand, is just damn annoying.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerNovember 2, 2012 - 5:20am
@BH- You bring up an interesting point and something I've always wondered about. I personally can't stand dialogue tags. 'Said' over and over gets repetitive, but so does generic emotional phrases, not to mention if you're paying attention to the story, you can normally follow who's talking.
How would you demonstrate say....nervous laughter, or even elation?
For anxiery would you just say: "I don't know about that," she crossed her arms and stared at her feet. Or say something different?
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 2, 2012 - 5:32am
In Clevenger's class, we did an exercise where we replaced all the speech tags with action tags. This was mindblowing to me. I had been doing it ocassionally, but never on every line of dialogue (well, not if there wasn't a speech tag needed, like when the dialogue is between two people and the reader knows who answers and with what sort of meaning due to the strong dialogue). Clevenger explained it so well. His class essays were just out of this world.
"I don't know about that." She crossed her arms across her chest.
"Think about it." I reached out to touch her shoulder. My fingers trembled.
She pulled away from my hand. Her gaze fell to the floor. "I have been, and I don't know."
(not great, but you get the idea, right?)
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsNovember 2, 2012 - 5:40am
I've grown either increasingly weary in my own writing, or less tolerant in others', of trying to be clever or writing that obviously sounds like writing. If someone smiles then they smile. You have to allow room for the context to color that smile. You'll now if it's a sardonic laugh or a nervous laugh with me just saying laugh, if you don't then one of us is an idiot and should accept that and move on. If I have to say something in different words it should only be a more precise word, not hiding the meaning behind a veil of ambiguos language and writing tricks. Tricks are easy to see through.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 2, 2012 - 5:48am
I'm with you, Ren. But practicing those things is important to get a handle on when to simply say smile and laugh. And you are right. It shouldn't be ambiguous language, it should be precise.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerNovember 2, 2012 - 6:49am
@BH- I get what you're saying and what you wrote is far more compelling than:
"I don't know about that." She said
"Think about it." I asked
She spoke softly "I have been, and I don't know."
@Ren- in some ways I feel like it is more a stylistic choice, but in others it is a more sophisticated type of story telling to call a spade, a spade. Sometimes as smile is just a smile. I think in a way to differentiate and then communicate it to the reader as intended takes alot of subtlety and clarity.
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsNovember 2, 2012 - 7:42am
Yeah, totally. I think maybe the thing is though that a smile is never just a smile, and everybody is clued into that. The stylistic choice maybe comes in at how much sensory detail you want to embellish, because a reader's brain will fill most of that stuff in anyway. So maybe the smile in your story is supposed to be a nefarious smile, you could pad it out with some menacing lip curling details or just have the smile there, lingering. A smart reader will probably fill it in with an "oh, she's wicked" response, maybe a weird reader will have it play off as a naive smile and have their own little story going in their head. A dumb reader may just be perplexed by a smile, but you can't bank your story on dumb readers.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 2, 2012 - 7:53am
If the smile is in context of great dialogue and action, then I get the feeling of it. But I've also read stories where people 'smile' 5-10 times in 2,500 words. That's when it starts reading to me as place-markers. I'm very guilty of this in a first draft. I'll put in smile, nod, etc. Then I'll go back in and find those crutch-words and change them to body language that is more precise.
I can't cut every smile and every adverb, but I need to be aware of them so that I can give more power and character to the characters.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerNovember 2, 2012 - 8:07am
because a reader's brain will fill most of that stuff in anyway."
I think you hit the nail on the head there. In some ways, if you starve people for some detail, they'll fill it in themselves and it'll draw the reader in that much further. It is an extremely fine line to walk and there are only a few writers that can do it well.
A good example is:
“Fish," the old man said. "Fish, you are going to have to die anyway. Do you have to kill me too?” Old Man and the Sea.
I have no context, but given the story and what's going on, I can fill in how the old man looks, what he's feeling without it ever being written.
I think it's about subtlety, style and mindfulness, more than anything. I'm guilty of rushing through a story and not being aware of patterns until later on. Just me though. I am no where near someone to listen to, just someone with an idea.
EDIT: It seems alot of this has to do with character development from what I've seen. If you have a flesh and blood person already established, you won't need to give that much anyway. Just my thoughts though. Doesn't mean I'm right.
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsNovember 2, 2012 - 8:19am
@Howie- yeah, the body language works tight with your style, can't think of a polished piece I've read and thought of weak place-marker words. I think I shy away from the body English moreso now just because my borderline autistic brain starts reading it as very mechanical movements, but they're weird and jerky, very Harryhausenesque, due to the pace of reading text. I can't really tell what I've filled in instead of a lot of action tags, but I haven't really noticed them being gone before thinking about it just now.
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryNovember 2, 2012 - 12:13pm
So I loathed this thread for the most part. However, the Emotional Vocabulary thing BH posted and "we replaced all the speech tags with action tags" made every bit of it worthwhile.
Thanks, Bryan.
Courtney
from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooksNovember 2, 2012 - 1:09pm
Also, these are great ways to write out a first draft. Everyone agrees that editing is easier than writing. Use adverbs, terrible cliches, and reuse the same word a thousand times when you write your first draft. It reminds you exactly what you wanted to do with a scene so when you go back to edit, you can replace the third use of "smile" with body language.
I've also loved the action tag for dialogue, but I've noticed it way overdone lately. Don't drown your reader in anything -- there needs to be a balance for everything.
JEFFREY GRANT BARR
from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my lifeNovember 2, 2012 - 1:16pm
That body language/action tag stuff is dynamite! I hadn't really considered that approach as a conscious decision I could make. Right on. I don't think it would drown a readr is you just leaven the default "s/he said" with the action tags. Any kind of wholesale reductionism or global replacement is prone to stylistic overload, where the reader starts to really notice the writer.
*Addendum: Except for adverbs. Take them all out and replace them with the word ', with his penis.'
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryNovember 2, 2012 - 1:21pm
I concur with JGB in almost all of what he said. Except that "with his penis" is one word.
Seriously, Howie, thanks for sharing that. That shit's going into my edit process right along with the destruction of my thought verbs and elimination of thesis statements.
I'm smiling. I'm laughing.
Everybody's having a good time.
JEFFREY GRANT BARR
from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my lifeNovember 2, 2012 - 1:25pm
In my case, it's one long word.
WTF are thought verbs and thesis statements?
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryNovember 2, 2012 - 1:27pm
WTF are thought verbs and thesis statements?
Have you not read any of the craft essays on the site? The Palahniuk shit is right up your minimalist alley. Thought verbs, thesis statements, visceral sensory detail. It's good shit, you should check it out.
JEFFREY GRANT BARR
from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my lifeNovember 2, 2012 - 1:36pm
I have them in my evernote to read at some point. Too much reading about wiritng makes me depressed, so I mete it out by dribs and drabs.
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryNovember 2, 2012 - 1:46pm
I might be... but...
I'm Batman.
No, I'm Batman. Sorry.
Son of a ....
Sometimes people smile. Sometimes people laugh. There's nothing wrong with characters doing the same in fiction (and using those words rather than a synonym). Laughing is fine as long as isn't used to tell the reader when something is supposed to be funny (like a laugh track). If someone smiles, the thing that caused them to smile will help the reader determine the emotion that the character is experiencing. A synonym for "smile" isn't more revealing unless the definition of the word is slightly different/more specific.
Speech tags with either of the two words replacing "said" doesn't work at all, but "he said, smiling." is fine.
Rules are your training wheels. They're not for writing. They're for learning how to write.
Once a young writer understands the principles behind the rule (how adverbs might cripple a sentence), it's served its purpose and you can move on, adverbs in hand.
Don't be scared of words.
Wouldn't don't be scare of words be a rule?
I don't think smile and laugh shouldn't be used ever, they just are used as crutches for an emotional response in a lot of stories. I try to point this out and ask if there is another way of showing those emotions (usually happiness) through body language or dialogue.
It's something that pops out of the page at me whenever I see it, so I make a note of it. But, like I said, it's a guideline, not a rule. Maybe I should say 'It's a something to be aware of, not something to be scared of.'
I think that having a large emotional vocabulary that you demonstrate through body language, action, and dialogue is really important. Smiling is body language, but it covers half the emotions someone could be feeling.
Laughter, on the other hand, is just damn annoying.
@BH- You bring up an interesting point and something I've always wondered about. I personally can't stand dialogue tags. 'Said' over and over gets repetitive, but so does generic emotional phrases, not to mention if you're paying attention to the story, you can normally follow who's talking.
How would you demonstrate say....nervous laughter, or even elation?
For anxiery would you just say: "I don't know about that," she crossed her arms and stared at her feet. Or say something different?
In Clevenger's class, we did an exercise where we replaced all the speech tags with action tags. This was mindblowing to me. I had been doing it ocassionally, but never on every line of dialogue (well, not if there wasn't a speech tag needed, like when the dialogue is between two people and the reader knows who answers and with what sort of meaning due to the strong dialogue). Clevenger explained it so well. His class essays were just out of this world.
"I don't know about that." She crossed her arms across her chest.
"Think about it." I reached out to touch her shoulder. My fingers trembled.
She pulled away from my hand. Her gaze fell to the floor. "I have been, and I don't know."
(not great, but you get the idea, right?)
I've grown either increasingly weary in my own writing, or less tolerant in others', of trying to be clever or writing that obviously sounds like writing. If someone smiles then they smile. You have to allow room for the context to color that smile. You'll now if it's a sardonic laugh or a nervous laugh with me just saying laugh, if you don't then one of us is an idiot and should accept that and move on. If I have to say something in different words it should only be a more precise word, not hiding the meaning behind a veil of ambiguos language and writing tricks. Tricks are easy to see through.
I'm with you, Ren. But practicing those things is important to get a handle on when to simply say smile and laugh. And you are right. It shouldn't be ambiguous language, it should be precise.
@BH- I get what you're saying and what you wrote is far more compelling than:
"I don't know about that." She said
"Think about it." I asked
She spoke softly "I have been, and I don't know."
@Ren- in some ways I feel like it is more a stylistic choice, but in others it is a more sophisticated type of story telling to call a spade, a spade. Sometimes as smile is just a smile. I think in a way to differentiate and then communicate it to the reader as intended takes alot of subtlety and clarity.
Yeah, totally. I think maybe the thing is though that a smile is never just a smile, and everybody is clued into that. The stylistic choice maybe comes in at how much sensory detail you want to embellish, because a reader's brain will fill most of that stuff in anyway. So maybe the smile in your story is supposed to be a nefarious smile, you could pad it out with some menacing lip curling details or just have the smile there, lingering. A smart reader will probably fill it in with an "oh, she's wicked" response, maybe a weird reader will have it play off as a naive smile and have their own little story going in their head. A dumb reader may just be perplexed by a smile, but you can't bank your story on dumb readers.
If the smile is in context of great dialogue and action, then I get the feeling of it. But I've also read stories where people 'smile' 5-10 times in 2,500 words. That's when it starts reading to me as place-markers. I'm very guilty of this in a first draft. I'll put in smile, nod, etc. Then I'll go back in and find those crutch-words and change them to body language that is more precise.
I can't cut every smile and every adverb, but I need to be aware of them so that I can give more power and character to the characters.
I think you hit the nail on the head there. In some ways, if you starve people for some detail, they'll fill it in themselves and it'll draw the reader in that much further. It is an extremely fine line to walk and there are only a few writers that can do it well.
A good example is:
“Fish," the old man said. "Fish, you are going to have to die anyway. Do you have to kill me too?” Old Man and the Sea.
I have no context, but given the story and what's going on, I can fill in how the old man looks, what he's feeling without it ever being written.
I think it's about subtlety, style and mindfulness, more than anything. I'm guilty of rushing through a story and not being aware of patterns until later on. Just me though. I am no where near someone to listen to, just someone with an idea.
EDIT: It seems alot of this has to do with character development from what I've seen. If you have a flesh and blood person already established, you won't need to give that much anyway. Just my thoughts though. Doesn't mean I'm right.
@Howie- yeah, the body language works tight with your style, can't think of a polished piece I've read and thought of weak place-marker words. I think I shy away from the body English moreso now just because my borderline autistic brain starts reading it as very mechanical movements, but they're weird and jerky, very Harryhausenesque, due to the pace of reading text. I can't really tell what I've filled in instead of a lot of action tags, but I haven't really noticed them being gone before thinking about it just now.
So I loathed this thread for the most part. However, the Emotional Vocabulary thing BH posted and "we replaced all the speech tags with action tags" made every bit of it worthwhile.
Thanks, Bryan.
Also, these are great ways to write out a first draft. Everyone agrees that editing is easier than writing. Use adverbs, terrible cliches, and reuse the same word a thousand times when you write your first draft. It reminds you exactly what you wanted to do with a scene so when you go back to edit, you can replace the third use of "smile" with body language.
I've also loved the action tag for dialogue, but I've noticed it way overdone lately. Don't drown your reader in anything -- there needs to be a balance for everything.
That body language/action tag stuff is dynamite! I hadn't really considered that approach as a conscious decision I could make. Right on. I don't think it would drown a readr is you just leaven the default "s/he said" with the action tags. Any kind of wholesale reductionism or global replacement is prone to stylistic overload, where the reader starts to really notice the writer.
*Addendum: Except for adverbs. Take them all out and replace them with the word ', with his penis.'
I concur with JGB in almost all of what he said. Except that "with his penis" is one word.
Seriously, Howie, thanks for sharing that. That shit's going into my edit process right along with the destruction of my thought verbs and elimination of thesis statements.
I'm smiling. I'm laughing.
Everybody's having a good time.
In my case, it's one long word.
WTF are thought verbs and thesis statements?
Have you not read any of the craft essays on the site? The Palahniuk shit is right up your minimalist alley. Thought verbs, thesis statements, visceral sensory detail. It's good shit, you should check it out.
I have them in my evernote to read at some point. Too much reading about wiritng makes me depressed, so I mete it out by dribs and drabs.
It's worthwhile. Helped me a great deal.