Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs October 19, 2012 - 7:12pm

In a way adverb use is another example of telling rather than showing. It's a shortcut when it comes to not having to show. It's a good idea to try to avoid them, but sometimes using an adverb is the best way to convey something.

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 19, 2012 - 7:19pm

I like using adverbs to allow you to keep moving at a fast pace. In Glamorama, Bret Easton Ellis has got to have close to a thousand of them, and they work really well in his style.

JEFFREY GRANT BARR's picture
JEFFREY GRANT BARR from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my life October 20, 2012 - 1:49am

Yes, and BEE knows how to write with purpose. He isn't lazy about usage, he is playful with words. He knows the rules, and how and when to break them for effect. A rule, for having been broken, is no less a rule. Rule does not equal law. Devon, show me an example, from your writing, where 'adverbs [...] allow you to keep moving at a fast pace.' For writers like you and I, these rules allow us to grow as writers--like children, new writers need boundaries and guidelines to prevent us from taking shortcuts that harm our development.

XyZy's picture
XyZy from New York City is reading Seveneves and Animal Money October 20, 2012 - 6:38am

Yes, and BEE knows how to write with purpose purposefully. He isn't lazy about usage, he is playful with words. He knows the rules, and how and when to break them for effect effectively.

Hiding adverbs within prepositional phrases (adverbial prase) is often more combersome than just laying the adverb out in the first place.

A broken rule, for having been broken, is no less a rule.

The same is true for adjectives, though I always wonder why it's the adverb that gets all the bad press, and not the adjective. They have the same job; all they do is modify other words. But for some reason if that other word is a verb, it's a big taboo?

So instead of simply modifying the verb with an adverb, we have to jump through all these hoops with adverbial phrases, while the adjective gets free claim to the modifier kingdom? I smell a conspiracy...

Down with the adjective tyranny! The adverb is dead! Long live the adverb!

mcguy101's picture
mcguy101 October 20, 2012 - 6:43am

Bradley-

So what? My position is Showing=bad. Showing and Telling= good. If adverbs can be used effectively, who cares if it means that you tell instead of show?

A healthy balance between dramatization and exposition allows a story to flow better and develop characters well. Stories that rely too much on dialogue ony give a capsule of where characters are in the moment and not their journey they took to get to that moment. Too much "showing" also can effect pace negatively as lesser scenes are dramatized to the negative effect of overall plot. While, I think it is a great idea to "show" important scenes, I really don't care about dramatizing routine scenes that are only there to advance the plot.

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 20, 2012 - 6:53am

@Jeffrey Grant Barr - 

"The smell of wet dirt, the damp stale air stinging like ice crystals in her throat; her senses are her only defense now. The most precious of them all, her sight, has already been taken from her. With her head in a rag-doll slump between her shoulders, Sarah's body hangs from the wrists, just close enough to the ground to stick her toes in the dirt. She tries to push off the ground, relieve the tension on her arms, but winds up spinning helplessly in slow circles.

Tremors course through her body. She is disgustingly cold."

 

It is a long passage and there are only two adverbs. but I think that they do a great job where they are placed.

 

Sometimes adverbs make a simple statement powerful.

Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs October 20, 2012 - 7:48am

Adverbs often just read like shit. Instead of using an adverb to modify a verb, choose a verb that would otherwise have the same meaning as the adverb and the verb together. Sentences read much better this way. But don't do it if the only possible word choices or words that people usually don't know.

Talking about doing too much "showing" in reference to limiting adverb use is kind of silly considering you need very little extra text to compensate for not using an adverb. I'm much more concerned with adverbs creating awkward sentences than telling rather than showing. Too much showing can have a negative impact on a story, but I don't think too much showing is related to lack of adverb use at all. Trying to limit adverb use results in better writing. Not using adverbs no matter what will result in the occasional clumsy sentence.

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 20, 2012 - 7:52am

agreed

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. October 20, 2012 - 8:53am

“We’re not story showers,” Child said. “We’re story tellers.”

I don't agree.  We're writers.  I have a friend who is a story teller.  He can tell a story like nobody else.  He's all body movement and exageratted faces and voices.  He knows the craft of story telling.  He can tell a joke like a motherfucker.  

He can't write.

Writers have a different bag of tricks.  They are different crafts with many overlaps in function, style, and substance.

(not saying that good storytellers can't be good writers (and vice versa), just that 'we're story tellers' is a little black & white to me.  The term 'story teller' or 'tell a story' is just a nice way of putting it, not the definition of what we do or are.)

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated October 20, 2012 - 8:57am

I'm of the mind set that if you are breaking a rule 'the right way' most people/few writers won't notice on a first read.

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 20, 2012 - 9:03am

Essentially, writers are storytellers. What we do is tell stories. Using the bag of tricks is how we turn words into images. They enable us to trick the reader into investing themselves into a story.

Really it just depends on the style of the writer and the story they are telling. If you have a bat shit crazy imagination, and enough action, you could probably get away with telling the whole story.

However you choose to write, if you understand what you are trying to do, practice will polish your style.

 

I have a friend like that too. He's probably the funniest guy I've ever met. If his stories were on paper I'd read them. But maybe that's just me.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like October 20, 2012 - 9:07am

I think written language is originally derived from or meant to represent spoken language (isn't it?) so to imagine writing itself to be completely divorced from speech is fallacious. The writer's 'showing' is something many people wouldn't necessarily do when extemporaneously 'telling' a story, but it often works on the page. There are lots of written works which would make basically no sense if read aloud, which is often a result of form or typography, not just 'showing.' I totally agree that writing can do things speech cannot (and vice versa.)

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 20, 2012 - 9:18am

I see you using them big words. Since I don't know what they mean, I'mma take em as disrespect.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like October 20, 2012 - 9:17am

lol?

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 20, 2012 - 9:18am

The 40 year old virgin. Kevin Hart freaking out in the store.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like October 20, 2012 - 9:19am

I suck at movies.

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 20, 2012 - 9:20am

You're missing out. 

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. October 20, 2012 - 9:22am

to imagine writing itself to be completely divorced from speech is fallacious

I never said it was completely divorced.  I said that they overlap.  And telling and showing should be mixed according to the needs of the story.  

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like October 20, 2012 - 9:23am

BH -- I was expounding, not attacking.

mcguy101's picture
mcguy101 October 20, 2012 - 9:56am

Bradley-

I agree with your premise about adverbs for the most part. I'm just still on my (silly) soapbox about "Show and tell" vs. "Show, not tell".

 

As far as storytelling, you can try to tell a story with mostly dialogue, but usually you can't tell the whole story (and for most writers, not even enough of it for many people to be interested in it). The use of imagery is great, but that is really more about part of "telling" than "showing" (as it usually is contained in expository passages than in dialogue). I just think "Show, not tell" is played out and not really relevant (or accurate). I think if you look at "Show, don't tell" as an admonition to remind you to dramatize important scenes (the way Henry James did to himself), then I think it is a great idea. If you see it as a rule to write by, you are being patently unfair to yourself and to your creativity,

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. October 20, 2012 - 11:19am

Dialogue is showing. 

"I bought a puppy from a homeless man for ten dollars," he said.  (showing)

vs.

He said that he had bought the puppy from a homeless man for only ten dollars.  (telling)

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. October 20, 2012 - 11:22am

As for setting, it depends on how you introduce the setting.  If you have a character walk around the mahogony coffee table to sit on the couch and light up a cigeratte, you're showing action and setting at the same time.  If you describe the room as if listing its contents, then it's telling.

mcguy101's picture
mcguy101 October 20, 2012 - 11:53am

bryanhowie-

I know that. That is why I didn't put the word "tell" in quotes in that first sentence (like I did here, lol). But point being, you don't "show a story". You tell one (or to be more accurate, you write one or you read one. You don't show one, unless you directly hand it to the reader yourself). My point is that you should use both dramatization and exposition in stories (as some others have pointed out, depending what the story calls for at that point).

As far as "showing action" that is really exposition and has nothing to do with dramatizing a scene (and doesn't really have to do with "Show, not tell." which is about dialogue). In fact, you can argue that you are just "telling" the reader what the character is doing.

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. October 20, 2012 - 11:55am

That's getting pretty semantic.  (not that I'm anti-semantic).  

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 20, 2012 - 12:12pm

Well, if this thread has shown us anything, it's that we have "academics" and "rebels" in regards to the craft. Really it doesn't matter as long as you write something entertaining that people want to read.

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 20, 2012 - 12:12pm

Not sure if academics is the right word there, but you know what I mean.

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 20, 2012 - 12:12pm

Not sure if academics is the right word there, but you know what I mean.

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. October 20, 2012 - 12:12pm

Not sure if academics is the right word there, but I know what you mean.

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 20, 2012 - 12:13pm

Hayo

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 20, 2012 - 12:15pm

I'm a dick.

Mess_Jess's picture
Mess_Jess from Sydney, Australia, living in Toronto, Canada is reading Perfect by Rachael Joyce October 20, 2012 - 12:25pm

CHiZine Publications' Matt Moore wrote a blog post about adverbs a couple of days ago:

http://mattmoorewrites.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/the-avoid-adverbs-rule-is-very-wrong/

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 20, 2012 - 12:51pm

As a writer, you’ve heard the “rule” about never using adverbs. This rule is wrong for two reasons:

There is nothing wrong with adverbs.
There are no rules in writing… unless you are a weak writer.

 

 

Pow! Right in the kisser.

 

 

Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs October 20, 2012 - 5:36pm

Okay, so "Show vs. tell" is bad advice (and not a rule for god's sake). “Usually show rather than tell, but not always” is a good advice. But there are exceptions considering there is the occasional good story or novel that is mostly summary rather than scene.

When I edit someone's manuscript, I often highlight something and write the comment, "Show, don't tell." I don't highlight the entire document and write, "Show, don't tell." Everything is on a case by case basis.

There is hardly any fiction that is all showing and no telling. Attempting to do this because of "the rule" is ridiculous.

Unless it's essential to use a flashback, it's better to "tell" about it in a single sentence or so if possible.

A lot of "showing" can just be omitted rather than using "telling" to speed up the pace. You don't need to know every little thing about a character's day. Only stick to what's important. Also, when it comes to "telling," you don't need to know every little thing about a character. These sort of things are on my mind at the moment since I've been reading a lot of Stephen King recently and it's his biggest weakness. Regardless, I suppose some people may like that he does this.

Writing is stronger when characterization is expressed through showing rather than telling. Rather than writing pages and pages of backstory and exposition to tell about a character's past history, personality, and behavior, it is much preferable to show these things during scenes as they occur.

Don't tell the reader that your character is a dick. Instead, show him being a dick.

In the case of "showing" past history, it's a bit tricky, so telling it a little here and there is perfectly fine and it's usually preferable to do it "in scene" rather than in a flashback, but not always. 

And no, "show, don't tell," isn't only about dialogue. It's only about it to a small degree. When writing dialogue that serves to give information to the reader, it must not be a conversation that people would never have in real life. Don't have one character tell the other character things that he obviously already knows. Don't have characters tell each other things they obviously know when there's no reason for them to be telling each other these things (except to provide information to the reader).

JEFFREY GRANT BARR's picture
JEFFREY GRANT BARR from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my life October 21, 2012 - 12:58am

Oh wait, some guy wrote a blog post saying adverbs are good, and he cited a story he 'just finished'? Well holy fucking christ on a popsicle, sign me right the fuck up!

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. October 21, 2012 - 7:43am

I don't think you even have to sign up for it.  You just click on the link and it's there.  

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones October 21, 2012 - 8:21am

I'm a dick.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated October 21, 2012 - 11:41am

If you ain't mad enough to bare knuckle box, you ain't mad. And if you ain't mad, I don't want to hear it.

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. October 21, 2012 - 12:24pm

Shut up, Dwayne.  I want to hear it.  

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated October 21, 2012 - 1:01pm

Life is full of disappointments. Like right now I'm disappointed no one got the reference I just made.

Richard's picture
Richard from St. Louis is reading various anthologies October 31, 2012 - 2:35pm

the best example i can think of is using an adjective like "beautiful" or "ugly". those words means nothing to me. what exactly does a beautiful woman look like to me? so in TELLING me she's beautiful you've lost not only the opportunity to SHOW me beauty (her physical beauty, her features, her clothes, her mannerisms, her language, her actions) but you also lose the opportunity to SHOW me her character, to reveal to me what makes her beautiful or kind or haunted or masochistic.

also, we all bring our own histories and baggage and fetishes to the page, so while a blonde blue-eyed buxom woman with a tan and long legs may be attractive to some, to another person, perhaps somebody who had their heart broken by this woman or left by a mother that fits this description, that beauty may not be so obvious—maybe that archetype sounds more like whore or user or victim. maybe a dark-haired, brown-eyed girl with red lips, tattoos up and down her arms, combat boots and piercings, maybe that is the idea of beauty to somebody else.

hope that makes sense and helps.

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones November 1, 2012 - 7:58am

When describing women, I like to show her clothes and eye color. Or maybe a shade of lipstick, then let the reader fill in the rest. I think any man can construct their own beauty based off a few good details. Jack Ketchum describes a lot of women like that and it works well for me when I'm reading it.

 

It's all about giving a few bold details, then letting imagination do the rest.

PopeyeDoyle's picture
PopeyeDoyle November 1, 2012 - 8:14am

I like to describe her personality.  Because that's where her true beauty is...

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. November 1, 2012 - 8:54am

Two words that mean nothing to me are 'smile' and 'laugh'.  In a story I critique, if I see any form of those two words, I usually ask "Is there any other body language you can use that conveys the emotion you're trying to demonstrate?"

People smile for too many reasons.  They grin, smirk, and beam.  They do a lot of things with their lips.  But for very different reasons.  And if it's just "he smiled," I have no idea what that emotion is supposed to be in some cases.

Laughing makes me feel like I (the reader) am supposed to think something is funny.  I hate it when a character laughs and I don't.  If you can show amusement in any other way than smiling and laughing, I don't feel the pressure to find something funny when it isn't funny to me.

There are exceptions, of course.  But I think these two words tell me what I should be feeling instead of showing me how the character feels.

* Doubly bad if these words are used as speech tags.  I can't hear somebody laughing words.  They laugh, talk, laugh.  "I ate the pizza," she smiled.  No, sir, I do not like that.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner November 1, 2012 - 8:55am

I read all of this and have the article. I'm late to the party, but since I started a thread similar to this and an article of the same name is listed, the word-nerd in me demanded a comment. 

 

I'm trying to think of a way to write this without sounding like a douche...and for the record I am still learning myself. 

One of my characters says: "I think the world is best viewed with cataracts. Black and white appearing infrequently, everything shaded in slate and ash and other variations of gray.”

Basically, I've worked really hard, professionally, personally even with my writing to steer away from 'black and white' thinking recently. e.g. "You can't say that, it breaks the rule." Some people love reading about endless bloodlines and who begot who. It's their thing. Some people love reading succinct sentences and all show. Some even want to blend them. 

I guess what I'm saying is, write what you feel. There are rules and it's important to know what they are and why people say they're rules, but in the end every rule can be bent and sometimes broken. 'Show, don't tell' is a culturally imposed rule more than anything. Our society is ADD, busy and barely able to read, so in order to sell books, they want a certain tone and drive to the story that 'SDT' offers. It catches people's attention and sucks them in (in some cases) that's why our querys tend to look like movie trailers. 

This rule also keeps people from using too many similes. They're great, I love them, but 'like' showing up in every sentence can be repetitive. 

Some of the older novelist could have cared less and wrote endlessly in flourishes that are now picked apart and read ad nauseam. It's more something for marketing as opposed to anything THAT important. 

Truly genius writing doesn't follow the rules normally, it follows someone heart. True genius is making your own rules that blend with others. Art is one of the few places in life where 2+2=5. I'd say learn the rules, figure out why they're there and keep what you want, throw the rest away. In the end, it is YOUR story. 

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. November 1, 2012 - 8:57am

There are rules

I try to approach them as guidelines.  It's a semantic argument, but 'rules' sounds like black & white thinking.

In the end, it is YOUR story.

In the end, it's their story.  You give it out.  You share it.  It's the reader's to interpret.  That's how I think of art.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner November 1, 2012 - 8:59am

In the end, it's their story.  You give it out.  You share it.  It's the reader's to interpret.  That's how I think of art."

Well said. It reminds me of quote. 

“I think the reward for conformity is that everyone likes you except yourself.” ― Rita Mae Brown.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated November 1, 2012 - 10:54am

I go for other people's reactions, since the important part isn't that the reader be attracted to her, but the reader understand that X is attracted to her.

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks November 1, 2012 - 12:49pm

I use the word "smile" a lot. Howie has gotten on me about it before, but I think it serves a purpose in a certain type of story.

For example, the one he noted the use of "smile" in for me, was a bleak, vaguely optimistic but mostly sad story. So when they smiled, the context usually suggested that the smile meant something else. I think if you have solid writing around anything, anything is acceptable.

Like "laugh." Please, for the love of God, don't use the word "laugh" in a comedy or I'll think you're trying too hard. Use it in a horror story, and it could mean a million things, and have a strong enough context to make me understand.

The reader can do some work for themselves, but the author usually guides their hand with obvious clues -- if someone's laughing in a horror story, it probably isn't in glee. It's probably in terror or delight at the misfortune they're causing, depending on who's laughing.

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. November 1, 2012 - 2:24pm

It sounds like I'm a grumpy, old man who hates it when other people are happy.

"I hate smiles and laugher.  And kitties."

 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated November 1, 2012 - 2:36pm

Wait, you aren't a grumpy old man who hates other people's joy?