Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 4, 2012 - 4:00pm

I've just seen on the nightly news, that scientists in Geneva have announced they've found the Higgs boson - otherwise known as the God Particle.

This is an elementary subatomic particle, theorized for the past 48 years and finally found to exist, that gives all matter in the universe actual, tangible mass. Through seriously advanced physics that even I can't begin to understand let alone explain to others, the Higgs boson also makes possible the existence of other universes, thus legitimizing all those kooky multiverse sci-fi storylines.

Combined with the recent growth of support for a theory that states the universe's conception, the Big Bang, is more likely the shifting of matter and energy from one 'parent universe' to its offspring (us) through a super-massive black hole, the concrete proof of the Higgs boson is likely going to revolutionize what we believe/know about time and space. The boson and this new theory of shifting universes actually mesh more smoothly together than previously accepted concepts of the Big Bang coming from nothing, or from some all-knowing flying spaghetti monster.

So, does this mean anything to you as an aspiring author? I doubt it, other than having to rewrite that magnum opus of a space opera you were secretly working on. Nonetheless, I'd love to hear peoples' thoughts on this.

Was it God, Joshua Jackson and J.J. Abrams, the Big Bang, African American holes (don't say black, it's racist), or was it the one-armed man?

 

Michael J. Riser's picture
Michael J. Riser from CA, TX, Japan, back to CA is reading The Tyrant - Michael Cisco, The Devil Takes You Home - Gabino Iglesias July 4, 2012 - 4:57pm

I'm a Christian. I don't really believe anything in science has ever stood fundamentally in opposition to the existence of God, nor that fights picked by ignorant religious zealots should ever be taken seriously, nor that the occasional clash between religion and science (ignorance or egoism on either side) should have any effect on one's opinion of either.

It's a pretty amazing discovery, at least as far as I can understand it, which of course isn't very far. I'm not smart enough to internalize it on any real level, but I'm curious to see what comes out of this going forward. And I certainly hope to avoid getting into any pointless religious debates over it.

GaryP's picture
GaryP from Denver is reading a bit of this and that July 4, 2012 - 4:48pm

I think Apollo is in charge of the Higgs boson.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 4, 2012 - 5:29pm

@ Michael: I'm pleased to see someone with spiritual beliefs tempering them with such a level-headed mindset. I've seen zealots on all sides of the aisle, be it athiest, fundamentalist Judaeo0Christian, or even tree-hugging hippy mumbo jumbo, who rail aagainst all things 'other' so I'm impressed at your fair and humble comment. Though, i have to disagree with the idea that there could exist a pointless debate. I'm a firm believer that nothing can ever be achieved by keeping the peace.

@ Gary: I'm always happy to see Greek reference!!!

Michael J. Riser's picture
Michael J. Riser from CA, TX, Japan, back to CA is reading The Tyrant - Michael Cisco, The Devil Takes You Home - Gabino Iglesias July 4, 2012 - 5:44pm

Well, you could argue that peace is achieved by keeping the peace. But peace in this life is always temporary, because nobody can keep it forever. And... it's funny, I literally just texted this to my girlfriend a few minutes ago: "In our revulsion and our despair, our spirits are tempered. Peace never taught a lesson."

Either way, there are certain debates I feel rarely achieve anything, so I try to avoid them. We've only got so much time on this rock, you know? Some things just don't seem worth the investment of time, or the vehement conflict doesn't seem often to lend itself to any real growth. Argue with the right person and that may be totally different, but as a rule, I find a lot of those debates to be rough just because nobody's willing to come to the middle enough for any real discussion.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like July 4, 2012 - 6:04pm

Based on what I heard on the radio (BBC) I think the Higgs particle was necessary to explain how what we call "space" can actually exist rather than "be" nothing more than the completely empty area between other particles.  I'm not sure on that.

As far as multi-verses go, I don't know.  Supposedly there's some math which shows the possibility of alternate universes; such theorems are surely above my reading-level.  I'm not sure I believe in "possibilities" over absolute determinism.  Just because we don't know specifically why some particles jump around the way they do, it doesn't mean there aren't laws governing those movements too, right?  Again, any proofs either way would be over my pay-grade.

And, oddly enough, I have been working on a story/novel wherein the main character muses on some theoretical physics, but this discovery won't force me to rewrite it or anything.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 4, 2012 - 6:10pm

@ Mike: Ok, first, let me say that you must be the single coolest person to receive texts from!

Secondly, I completely agree that some arguments, when shared with the wrong people, are so devastatingly pointless that you feel mildly suicidal afterward at the sadness of having lost that much of your life. I do firmly believe, though, that no topic is too tender a thing not to share with others of differing views, so long as everyone comes to the table with a sense of humor, some intelligence, and wisdom to know how unintelligent we all are.

It wasn't my intention at all to incite some sort of vitriolic crusade on other side when I started this thread. I honestly thought it was simply a momentous achievement, and announced on such an auspicious day, that I thought it could be fun to discuss what, if any, effect this might have on us as individuals who slave away with ink and paper - or keyboards and flash drives.

PS - extra bonus points for use of the word 'vehement' as it is one of my faves.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 4, 2012 - 6:16pm

@ Hop: I totally agree with you on the idea that not knowing why something occurs as it does, does not preculde any underpinning laws we may not yet even comprehend. I doubt we will ever get even a working adn complete knowledge of how, let alone why, but I do love thinking about it all, even though the math is SO not my area of expertise in the least.

I hate math, but only because I'm no good at it. I wish I was better at it, though, just so I could actually know for myself the mechanics of the theories I agree with. Ugh... nothing like quantum physics discoveries and discussions to make me go to bed feeling dumber than when I woke up this morning.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like July 4, 2012 - 6:20pm

nothing like quantum physics discoveries and discussions to make me go to bed feeling dumber than when I woke up this morning

Just convert to ________ and stop asking questions.

 

 

 

(Or, to be fair, ask different questions.)

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 4, 2012 - 6:27pm

Good thing you put that last line in there, as every religion just brings up more questions, at least in my mind.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like July 4, 2012 - 6:29pm

But they don't require post-graduate degrees to answer.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 4, 2012 - 6:33pm

Very, very true. In fact, I have heard from a former friend, who is actually a preacher, that the more education one has, hte harder it is to be religious.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters July 4, 2012 - 6:37pm

Silly man.  Every good religion encourages its followers to question everything. 

"I don't have faith because of what I don't understand, I have faith because of what I do understand."

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like July 4, 2012 - 6:38pm

Religions, like most "world-views," are reductive.  Is there anything wrong with that?  I guess not; since no one can actually know everything, who's to say how much knowledge is enough / too little / too much?  We all are and therefore no one in particular is.  Which doesn't mean we shouldn't tell people we think they're wrong, only that we shouldn't be surprised when they disagree.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 4, 2012 - 6:41pm

I think, in the end, faith is harder for me to understand than quantum physics, or why shows like Firefly get cancelled while shows like Grey's Anatomy just keep vomiting up half digested garbage year after year. No matter whose God it is, no God knows the answer to that conundrum.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like July 4, 2012 - 6:42pm

It's because Grey's Anatomy gives people hope, while Firefly deals only in the cold hard facts.

EDIT - Zing!

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters July 4, 2012 - 6:44pm

I thought Firefly was stupid.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 4, 2012 - 6:44pm

Zing?

And what hope? That they too can become a better writer of shows than Grey's Anatomy? I don't see that as hope, I see that as a certainty.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 4, 2012 - 6:46pm

Ok, ok, ok, wait just a damn minute... I can't say anyone's God is stupid, or they're stupid for bowing down to Him just because He'll burn them forever if they don't, but you can call Joss Whedon's best creation ever, stupid? There is no justice if this is allowed.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like July 4, 2012 - 6:46pm

I never saw either show, though I'm familiar with the concepts.  But, if I may draw your attention to the parallel between the two shows, my assignation of their effects, and the topic at hand ...

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 4, 2012 - 6:48pm

Leave it to Hop to guide this floundering ship back on course...

And, is it floundering, or foundering?

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 4, 2012 - 6:51pm

Trick question, it's both.

Ha! At least one timelessly confounding question has been answered tonight, and with that small but mighty victory against myself, I shall retire to my bed, and my adoring woman. God only knows what there is in me to adore...

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like July 4, 2012 - 6:53pm

Steering the talk was not my intention; explaining my joke allegory was.

G'night.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like July 4, 2012 - 6:56pm

"I don't have faith because of what I don't understand, I have faith because of what I do understand."

No offense, but this is meaningless without knowing what he does and doesn't understand, not to mention the nature of his faith.

Well, it could have a very abstract meaning, in that it shows that a guy can have what he calls "faith" despite some indeterminate "lack of understanding" thanks to his (abstractly speaking) equally indeterminate "understanding."

Michael J. Riser's picture
Michael J. Riser from CA, TX, Japan, back to CA is reading The Tyrant - Michael Cisco, The Devil Takes You Home - Gabino Iglesias July 4, 2012 - 7:43pm

I wrote a very long response to this thread that detailed my own views on faith versus understanding, the plight of middle-American ignorance and laziness, and a bunch of other stuff, then my dog jumped on the power supply.

I really have to learn to start writing long responses in a text editor. This is the 2nd time I've lost something.

Anyway, hopefully I'll have the wherewithal to try it again at some point.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner July 5, 2012 - 3:50am

UGH! I stopped reading with parent universe. String Theory? Serious? Bull shit. You CAN'T prove String Theory or M-theory or Brain-theory or whatever bull shit they want to call it now, therefore it is philosophy, not science. Such a load of shit. Not to mention a myriad of mathematical absurdities which would arise in an "infinite multiverse". Infinity, what a load of shit. 

I am honestly not sure why the Higgs would be called the "God Particle" it's only a mass/transmitter and they didn't find it; they think they found it. Besides, find the Higgs field if you want to do something worth doing. Or how about the force carrier for gravity. 

The world is still the same as it was: a universe appeared out of no where and no when thirteen trillion years ago which seems to sync a Creator and science. As it should be. 

 

End rant. Yeah shitty grammar, but I'm not fixing it. 

 

Also Firefly does suck. 

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 5, 2012 - 4:21am

That's it, I can overlook your apathetic anti-scientific boson-biggotry, and even your skewed timeline (since when is billion the same as trillion) but what I cannot overlook, and cannot ever forgive, is anyone disparraging the name of Firefly.

You sir, are worse than Hitler!

(Note the Simpsons reference, and not my sincere attempt to compare you to Hitler. I've been accused of this before, and don't need the aggravation again.)

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 5, 2012 - 4:25am

Oh, and Mike, my cat does the same damned tihng, and only when I really wish she wouldn't, so I feel your pain. I'm sure your message was briliant, eloquent, and would cure cancer. Sadly, we'll never know, thanks a lot Fido!

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner July 5, 2012 - 4:33am

The cat is only dead if observed being dead. I am only Hitler if observed being Hitler. 

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters July 5, 2012 - 4:42am

"compare you to Hitler"

Godwin's law of internet debates.

"No offense, but this is meaningless without knowing what he does and doesn't understand, not to mention the nature of his faith."

This is true.  I'll have to think of someone to attribute it to.  Give me some time.  I'll come up with someone important and awe inspiring.

 

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 5, 2012 - 5:06am

Shroedinger's Hitler could make an awesome title for a short story.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner July 5, 2012 - 5:08am

I could see that. The cat is alive....and pissed. 

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 5, 2012 - 5:09am

Sounds like a sequel to Maus!

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner July 5, 2012 - 5:17am

Rated R

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 5, 2012 - 5:19am

Any self-respecting film/book/graphic novel about the Feline Reich must be rated R.

GaryP's picture
GaryP from Denver is reading a bit of this and that July 5, 2012 - 5:52am

I don't buy the big bang as a singular action. Nor God. Both, to me, beg the question: 'kay, so what came before?

Now the popcorn multiverse theory makes more sense to me. There just always was stuff (and always will be stuff). Our particular universe popped into somethingness 13 billion years ago, give or take. Other universes are doing the same thing as I write this.

Of course, the same could be said of a god. It always was and always will be.

When I look around, I don't see the hand of a god in anything. Others, however, do. They don't understand how I can't see god in everything, and I don't understand how they do see god in everything. Tangential thought - I've often wondered why the Judeo-Christian god stopped doing cool stuff 2000+ years ago? And I'm talking about the obvious, holy crap, some other being must have done this: people into pillars of salt, arks full of animals, messiah sons, turning stuff into fish and loaves, etc.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner July 5, 2012 - 6:05am

God is eternal, which indicates the absence of dimension. Time would in fact be irrelevant. However in an infinite multiverse anything would happen, no matter how statistically improbable and the fucked thing, it would happen an infinite amount of times. I realize you could make that case with Heisenberg, however in the macro world we live, there is no evidence of that and therefore that is nothing more than a human construct. 

So to prove my point: an elephant would have to appear next to your computer as you read this. It's statistically improbable, but in a multiverse it will happen. Not only that it will happen an infinite amount of times. Where's the elephant? Oh, right. We don't live in that world. 

There is no way to prove M-theory, which means, you are subscribing to a philosophy, NOT science. 

 

For the tangent- If the bible is the word of God, it wouldn't matter if say...Job existed or not. You are taking away the value of the lesson, not the facts. So, if you read it, said to yourself you can learn from Job's suffering, it wouldn't matter if he existed or not, the truth of the lesson wouldn't be negated. 

 

Also you have made a strong case for multiverse using your tangent. A salt column isn't probable, but on a long enough timeline it would happen. Also since there is no way to prove M-theory/String Theory or God for that matter, they have to be taken on faith, which you are demonstrating by saying: "it makes sense to me" 

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 5, 2012 - 6:08am

Gary, I love your theory, as it is like mine, and thus worthy of love. 

As far as God goes, I figure, if he's out there, he MUST have retired after Jeebus. I betcha they're kicking it on some sandy shore, sipping Mai'tais, or clubbing on Ibiza - lucky bastards.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner July 5, 2012 - 6:10am

Well then you are both demonstrating  faith. End of story. 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated July 5, 2012 - 6:13am

@Gary - Depending on how literally you take the Bible, big obvious miracles often came in spurts with huge chunks of no recorded miracles between them. Most of the time before the Jews were in Egypt as slaves, right before Jesus, etc. 

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 5, 2012 - 6:14am

I don't deny faith. I have faith the sun will rise and set. I deny the possibility that any group of people on this silly little rock has a damned clue about the true nature of things on a spiritual level, any more than you believe they have a clue as to the scientific nature of things.

We're all just blind moles scampering about till our brains stop getting enough oxygen to continue vital functions. I'm ok with that.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 5, 2012 - 6:15am

@ Dwayne: Quite the varied reading list! Gotta give a man props for reading Nietszche.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner July 5, 2012 - 6:22am

I deny the possibility that any group of people on this silly little rock has a damned clue about the true nature of things on a spiritual level, "

 

Agreed.We lack the mental architecture necessary to comprehend any of this, let alone even ask the questions. This might be a case of not being evolutionarily viable and not needed, or as per God, or both, however it would behoove us all to be more than spare parts and at least try. 

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 5, 2012 - 6:29am

Extra special bonus points for using 'behoove,' another of my favorite words.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner July 5, 2012 - 6:30am

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 5, 2012 - 6:33am

This, as deliciously sacrelicious as it is, would have more impact if I hadn't had to crank up my volume ot hear it.

Either way, I've always believed Matt Groening has a hotline to the powers that be.

XyZy's picture
XyZy from New York City is reading Seveneves and Animal Money July 5, 2012 - 6:39am

Hi, just wanted to stop by and comment on a minor technical point of no interest to anyone but myself (likely) but:

I don't buy the big bang as a singular action. Nor God. Both, to me, beg the question: 'kay, so what came before?

That is not actually 'begging the question'. Remember that the phrase actually means 'to assume the premise' (yes in a very weird broad definition of beg that we don't really use in polite conversation, you can blame the same people that thought prepositions shouldn't go at the end of sentences...)

So saying that: "God exists because God is eternal" is begging the question. Using the premise (God has always existed) of the argument to support the argument (God exists) is begging the question. Or my favorite logical fallacies of today: "To allow every man an unbounded freedom of speech must always be, on the whole, advantageous to the State, for it is highly conducive to the interests of the community that each individual should enjoy a liberty perfectly unlimited of expressing his sentiments"

Sorry for the interruption. Carry on.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 5, 2012 - 6:44am

Oooh, fallacies, damn people, you're just wracking up the extra bonus points! Soon, you'll be able to trade them in for Photon for President bumper stickers, and anatomically correct sex dolls. Keep at it!

On a more sincere note, XyZy, don't apologize. It's awesome semantics debates and philosophical discussions that I was after in the forming of this thread, so you've done us all a service by participating.

Fylh's picture
Fylh from from from is reading is from is reading is reading is reading reading is reading July 5, 2012 - 7:08am

The internet: Where science and theology smoke weed together, forget how they got there and stab each other in the head.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 5, 2012 - 7:23am

Now that's a motha fuckin' gangsta party!

GaryP's picture
GaryP from Denver is reading a bit of this and that July 5, 2012 - 7:25am

M-theory can't be proven. Yet. Some scientists believe supersymmetry can be proven within a decade, which is one step along the path. If supersymmetry is shown to be false, then I'll have to alter my worldview. If supersymmetry can be proven, then maybe a way can be found to prove other aspects of string theory. So, for now, it is faith. Though, to be honest, I think that's too strong of a word for my personal beliefs. M-theory sounds reasonable to me; I don't believe in it with all my heart. If it's proven false, so be it. However, I do believe that, given enough time (i.e., we don't blow ourselves up or get blown up by outside factors), that M-theory could be proven. That a way will present itself to either prove or disprove it. In that, I have faith, though it's a faith based on a history of scientific progress.

Another tangential thought about gods. They have the ability to prove their own existence. If a god showed up tomorrow, I wouldn't see much choice but to alter my worldview, though (as others have stated), the existence of a god doesn't preclude the existence of the Big Bang or a multiverse, so I could keep thinking a multiverse feels reasonable even as Apollo rides his chariot into the sky.