As indicated by the caption beside my name, I'm reading a career-spanning selection of Carver's stories. I've read about a dozen so far. It's good and all, but seems a bit formulaic after a while: minimalism, sexual tension, unresolved innuendo.
I know I've seen his name dropped quite often on this site. What's your take on him? Should I pace myself so as not to overdose, maybe just read a few in between other things? Does his style change noticeably over time?
Carver's great, Cathedral is one of my favorite stories. It's great how we get the ending when the process of change is apparent and inevitable. Plus the narrator is established as a person who assigns stereotypes.
I would imagine after examining an author's (or any artist's) body of work you would find repetitions, I believe that's part of the Autuer Theory, well in film, anyway.
But I can also understand how you can get burnt out on someone's work after seeing it all the time.
I've been meaning to get around to reading him. He's always my next choice but then a random tresure always pop up and I get distracted. I'll make a note to start on his stuff.
What would you guys recommend I start with? His first novel?
The short answer is pace yourself. Short stories aren't really meant to be read as "The Collected Works of...", and arguably are best read as individual pieces in magazines (rather than collections, even). Hemingway, Hempel, Borges, Cheever, Bartheleme--you can burn out trying to get through the collected work of anybody.
The long answer is that he's arguably the most influential and immitated short story writer of our time, and he wasn't really writing to formula so much as describing his own life, which never really rose above the trappings of his fiction (until maybe his late relationship with Tess). His work was considered pretty revolutionary at the time, but has been so influential on fellow writers and the next generation, that it just seems commonplace today. He also detested the term "minimalist" (like Clevenger today).
His work did change over time--his stories became slightly more expansive, more hopeful--but it might not be discernable to many. His story "A Small Good Thing" is an example of a story that was first written as "The Bath," which was considerably shorter and bleaker. His last story about the death of Chekhov (the name escapes me), was quite a bit different than anything he'd written previously, and I think Carver himself was very excited about where his writing was going. It might be even more evident in his poetry.
There's a big controversy over the influence of editor Gordon Lish on Carver's style--Lish really pushed him to pare his work down far beyond what Carver wanted. There was a great piece in The New Yorker (I think) about 5 years back, with some of their exchanged letters, which turned a lot of opinion against Lish.
My advice would be to read his best stories in the collection: A Small Good Thing, Cathedral, Fat, Where I'm Calling From, etc, then go slowly through the rest when you feel like it. He's immitated a lot, but to badly paraphrase Updike on Carver: perhaps no other writer has ever stacked such simple words so beautifully.
@jack: no novels, just stories. Where I'm Calling from is a "best of."
Good answers, MattF. I'll probably just pick at it now and then.
And maybe Carver just didn't like "ism"s; the stories are nothing if not minimal.
You're reading Borges now, I see. That collection shows a good bit of thematic redundancy, but (unlike my Carver volume) it includes an introduction which prepared me for it, explaining Borges' conscious re-visitation of his own work, the winding and doubling back, etc. I loved it.
i like carver (now). but i went through a phase where i really hated the stripped down nature of his work (especially stories like chef's house), and i think i still go back and forth on that, because sometimes i think there's a such thing as beeing too minimalist. that at some point the artifice of what you're doing comes back around, and you're now so minimal that you "sound written." i think there's also a point where you can become so minimal (and maybe it's what you're going for) that all authorial voice is taken from you, and you're left with a story that a five year old could tell, if that five year old beat his wife and drank too much.
i think there's also a point where you can become so minimal (and maybe it's what you're going for) that all authorial voice is taken from you, and you're left with a story that a five year old could tell
Good point. Like the "Sorry I ate your plums" poem. I hate that poem. Always have.
A.) It's not a poem
B.) It reminds me of the time an overrated dipshit ate my plums
"Where I'm Calling From" is his best story and contains some sort of primal writing magic. Incidently, when I first discovered Carver, I may have been too young and trenched in post-modern short story writers, and Cathedral is the only book I can remember disliking so vehemently that I threw it in the trash. It wasn't the stripped down prose so much as the stripped down stories. I couldn't find any dramatic lines worth following in a story about getting drunk and selling vitamins. Somehow, years later, my opinion changed drastically, probably with "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love."
I recently bought the collected shorts Cathedral. Stopped at "Chef's House". I liked the two stories I've read, but I'm not getting the "genius" vibe. But good writing is sometimes like that with me; it hits me later. As far as I've read, he submerges lots of the tension and theme, but when they hit you, you really feel the weight of the whole "iceberg". For example, in "Feathers", I love it when the wife whispers in that ugly baby's ear and the baby grabs her hair for a second. In general, I get the sense that stories open to interpretation are widely regarded as the highest form by "literary" types.
I really like his writing. Overall, he had a huge influence on many writers. Now you'll see a lot of writing that resembles his writing.
I couldn't find any dramatic lines worth following in a story about getting drunk and selling vitamins.
*chuckles*
The great thing about the collected stories of Borges, Hempel as well, is they're organised as the original collections, so it's more natural to work through one collection then put it down for a while, avoid burnout. Where I'm Calling From is just a big-ass bunch of stories, if I remember correctly.
I'd also say that Carver's very best stories and his lesser stories are a world apart. Certainly true of all writers, but I think the gap is bigger with Carver (which might explain why "Where I'm Calling From" is not a collected works?)
^ Yes to the 1st paragraph.
Based on reputation alone, I had been thinking about buying the Library of America collected works (all Carver's stories and some essays.) Settled for WICF. Glad I did, those LoA books are nice but pricey.
Where I'm Calling From isn't a collected works since it reprints stories from various collections.
^ Was just speculating as to why he was given a "Best of" collection instead of a "Collected Works" which only came very recently (the Library of America, which J.Y. mentioned). Where I'm Calling From was published right after his death I think, so maybe they just wanted to put something out, but it seemed odd to me that a short story writer of his importance didn't have a collected works for such a long time. There are living writers with collected works out for fuck's sake (which seems like bad luck to me).
Personally, I prefer a best of in most cases--unless you're doing something academic. I'm just curious how they decide these things. Louis L'amour's collected stories? I know people that couldn't jump over the thing, let alone read it.
I don't see collected works much unless it's either a Library of America book, not a massive amount of pages, or if it's split up in multiple volumes. Donald Barthelme doesn't have a collected stories and he's as deserving as Carver, but it probably wouldn't make much such since his collections are already long and they would probably split up his collected stories into different volumes anyway.
I love the story "Popular Mechanics" (or "Little Things"). That story really does it for me.
Cathedral and A Small, Good Thing are amazing stories.
I mixed up Chandler with Carver. Now I must read them both and solve this personal mystery.
The magic of Carver is the words that aren't written are more important than the ones that are as you read his stories. It's more than mere minimalism to me. There's just this sense of menace, or "lives of quiet desperation". And you know his characters by the time they've said two sentences. I think his body of work is very Gestalt in that the whole is so much greater than the sum of the parts. He captured a type of person and a type of life like a Polaroid.
I've never really read much Carver myself, so after this thread I found a used copy of Where I'm Calling From on Amazon for a buck (plus $3.99 shipping). At 500+ pages, not a bad deal at all.
I like to keep books of short stories, collections, anthologies and the such around. I don't necessarily read them cover to cover. But it's nice to be able to pick one up, read a story or two and set it down til the next time you feel the need. It's kind of guilt free buying for me. I don't care if I don't finish it any time soon - they're great for the home library for years to come.
You really can't go wrong with Where I'm Calling From.
The magic of Carver is the words that aren't written are more important than the ones that are as you read his stories. It's more than mere minimalism to me.
To offer a musical analogy (to Mr. Astral Weeks) -- you're saying it's more Kind of Blue than Music for 18 Musicians?
Probably more like The Well-Tuned Piano.
I was offering a comparison. It's more like TWTP than either of mine? I haven't heard it. What does it sound like? (Please don't say, "Imagine a Raymond Carver story as a piano piece.")
ha! I was mildly just egging you on, but The Well-Tuned Piano is one of those cornerstones of minimalism, it's okay, it does utilize a lot of space between phrasings though. Talking Miles Davis, In a Silent Way does a similar thing with that "outside the melody" thing. Sorry if this thread just got too nerdy.
To offer a musical analogy (to Mr. Astral Weeks) -- you're saying it's more Kind of Blue than Music for 18 Musicians?
I've never heard ...18 Musicians, but based on the reviews I just scanned, I don't think it elicits the same response from the listener/reader that Carver does. I could be wrong though, having never heard it.
Kind of Blue is a good comparison in my opinion. However, when I read Carver I'm thinking more Small Change and Heartattack & Vine as the soundtrack.
Speaking of Mr. Waits and Mr. Carver, has anyone else seen the film Shortcuts? If you like either/both, it's a must.
Short Cuts is good. I think it was the first dvd I netflixed.
Sorry if this thread just got too nerdy.
lol -- No worries. I listened to a bit of the Well-Tuned Piano. Starts out sounding like Erik Satie or something, then sort of spirals and snowballs from there.
It's been seven or eight years, but I remember Short Cuts being pretty good.
Reading Bath and then A Small Good Thing is a writing lesson in itself.
About the Lish thing.
Good stuff Howie. Lish sounds brilliantly unhinged: "The art of writing is like the art of giving head: relishing your dominion over the other body." -- Classic.
Would love to see a documentary of Gordon Lish (he's at times protrayed like a 4th Crumb brother). There has to be footage of his eight hour workshop/monologues where the writers were never allowed to read past their first sentences, for which they were routinely eviscerated.
There's a weird genius in the man; not as a writer, maybe not even as editior, but some mad Kurtzian-lit-philosopher. He brought the best out of many great writers, no doubt, though his methods may be unsound. If he'd have been satisfied being a teacher rather than writer or editor, might have left a much greater legacy?
This is the New Yorker article I mentioned above:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/24/071224fa_fact?currentPage=all
Can really see how cowed Carver was by the whole thing.
Would also recommend Carver's poetry. Don't normally read poetry myself, but like his stuff. Good window into his thinking and images.
Was a fan of Short Cuts as well. Can't really go wrong with Altman doing Carver.
Did anyone post the Lish edits of What We Talk About When We Talk About Love anywhere? Think from NYT.
As far as Lish Lit, I love it but also damn it for being all fancy with its upturned nose. I love Amy Hempel, lovelovelove Barry Hannah. The Lish style has left an indelible blot on my writing whether I want it to or not.
the writers were never allowed to read past their first sentences, for which they were routinely eviscerated
Sounds like a tactic to cull students who couldn't be worked into cultish devotees -- I would have been one of them, saying, "Screw this guy (even if he is a good editor.)"
It's a brainwashing technique, for sure. Isolate them, give them a common enemy, make them thank you for your abuse, etc.
Abusive relationship training 101. But, it worked. Hempel is amazing.
Hempel is amazing.
People keep saying that. What's her thing? If interested, where should I start?
Hempel does short stories, it's hard to describe exactly what a Hempel story does but it does a very specific thing rather amazingly, and it may or may not feature dogs. Here's a reprint of The Most Girl Part of You, I think from At the Gates of the Animal Kingdom, in the Collagist.
Read The Harvest
then read Chuck Palahniuk talking about Amy Hempel and The Harvest: She Breaks Your Heart
and then read In The Cemeter Where Al Jolson is Buried
Now go buy The Collected Stories.
Going to check out these stories. Thanks for the tips.
