Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated November 22, 2013 - 3:59pm

How would you portray people who had grown up decades after some crazy and/or scum bag guys eliminated certain groups of people without sounding like you endorsed the behavior?  Not just tried to like we have seen in real life, but really killed them all/virtually all of them.  I am leaning towards most people won't think about it much, but a few feel it was evil/confused why it happen.

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JEFFREY GRANT BARR from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my life November 22, 2013 - 4:23pm

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ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig November 23, 2013 - 2:30pm

I can't believe I never knew how much I needed that GIF in my life until right now.

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jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like November 22, 2013 - 9:06pm

The question begs lots of other questions which would help to answer it.

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Thuggish from Vegas is reading Day of the Jackal November 23, 2013 - 12:20am

There are a lot of ways to go with it.  First, are you the survivor?  The endangered species that was once populated but now few are left?  If so, I imagine you'd have a certain resentment, and a certain sense of luck and/or suvivor's guilt.  But then, that might also be mixed with a kind of self loathing.  The entire world that exists has rejected your kind, so you seek to be like those who exist, as opposed to those who were exterminated, and hate yourself for not being more like the winners whose ways you find so inviting, even if also somehow foreign. 

If you're on the other side, maybe you feel guilty about it, even if you weren't a part of it, or maybe (more interestingly) you don't.  Most likely you'd have mixed feelings about it.  Perhaps you are content to turn a blind eye to the past, because the conveniences afforded to you by the extermination of (whoever) are something you wouldn't want to give up, even though you wouldn't have exterminated the people themselves to get said conveniences.  After all, what's done is done anyway, right?  Might as well find a way to justify it to yourself, and in polite conversation, if necessary, rather than confront it head on, even though it nags at a small, not very loud part of your mind that is uneasy about the whole situation.

I think your lean is good, not thinking about it much, because why dwell on something so bothersome?  But that's the thing- it's still there...

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated November 23, 2013 - 1:26pm

Yeah, it does beg questions, but I've sort of wanted to think about it by itself a bit, as much as possible, since I'm not really sure about the idea.  That is why I asked you guys, but after the questions I'm leaning less towards a concentrated campaign of evil to some bureaucratic idiot worried about getting sued; genetic engineering gone overly cautious.  "We don't need liability issues.  Left handed people have more accidents? Make all the babies right handed.  Gays have higher rates of suicide?  Straight children it is.  Whites have more skin cancer?  Blacks have more sickle cell?  Mild evidence of mixed race kids being healthier?  All kids are interracial, simple enough."  It doesn't matter if any of those things are true, some people think they are true which might be enough to get the ball rolling on something like this.  I don't envision folks going along with it out of hate, although that would happen too I'm sure, but in a desperate attempt to keep with the Jones since the Jones kids would be smarter/healthier/live longer/physically better with the upgrades.

Which brings me back to the other thing I'm wondering about, how to avoid sounding like a Nazi without being all cheesy "diversity is awesome, sucks our world ain't got none!"

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ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig November 23, 2013 - 2:32pm

Well the simple conclusion would be that people would still get sick, still commit suicide, still have accidents. So the cleansing only resulted in a homogenous society that still has all the same problems as a diverse one without any of the benefits.

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jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like November 23, 2013 - 9:10pm

I'm leaning less towards a concentrated campaign of evil to some bureaucratic idiot worried about getting sued; genetic engineering gone overly cautious.

I think that's a good way to avoid some cliches "right off the bat." Could be interesting. Maybe even darkly funny. Just don't make him a computer/AI.

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Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated November 23, 2013 - 9:33pm

If I ever write about AI they will mostly be built to do a job and not care too much about humans as a group. Sort of like real people.

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Thuggish from Vegas is reading Day of the Jackal November 24, 2013 - 12:03am

Not only does avoiding the hate-driven genocide thing avoid a lot of cliches, I'd say it's more accurate to the way we do things today.  Everything is subtle, you hardly realize it's going on, and anything in the future that devestating will have to be that way.  Western civilization learned its lesson with Hitler on the blatant hate thing (maybe too well), but the future Orwell and company dreamed up happens incrimentally, infinitely harder to stop.  

Maybe all you have to do is model it step by step of what the Nazis did in Germany in the 30s, or the Soviets did a little before that...  but make everything softer.  Concentration camps?  Reeducation camps?  No, propoganda, maybe flouride in the water makes them more docile and complicit, bombardment of TV programs that subtle influence the culture into agreeing with the powers that be, and if you want to go the John Holdren (presiden'ts science czar) route, you can sterilize people through their water supply.

Hey!  There's an idea.  You read all these books where a third child is outlawed or whatever...  Maybe a similar theme only its a kid of a people who weren't supposed to have kids (water supply), but one little straggling sperm cell made it through...

It's late, I'm spitballing, but there you go.

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Thuggish from Vegas is reading Day of the Jackal November 24, 2013 - 7:29pm

You know, this idea keeps growing in my head.  I like it.  Now I'm comparing being a survivor of an almost extinct race to being an outcast kid in high school.  Part of you likes the cool crowd, especially the beautiful girls you yearn for... but you also hate them for not accepting you, because you're not one of them.

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Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated November 25, 2013 - 1:22am

Well, if I'm going to do anything with it I want to keep it realistic, and nations with modern technology have a falling birth rate with a lesser effect for the religious so I don't see those laws limiting births as a long term kind of thing.

The more I think about it, the less I think there was much/any attempt to annihilate a group.  It has more in common with early European contact killing huge numbers of Indians from disease.  From a mix of indifference and not understanding what they are doing some idiot saying, "I hope lots of X babies get born, but not from a product that costs me money!"  And if the product really does make healthy super babies it won't take long for everyone/virtually everyone to use it or be descended from those who did.

As an aside, people have to have a certain amount of interaction with a group to hate them.  If there are only a few dozen spread out over the world you'll be an exile, maybe even a freak, but it won't be a common deep down hate.

 

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Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics November 25, 2013 - 6:22am

Not entirely sure if this was already mentioned since I only skimmed the posts, but I think you might be able to make a case for some sort of genetic non-compatability issue when you start genetically engineering people. The time frame of the story could take place long enough after gen-eng people have become commonplace, so much so that they held a majority role in population. If they couldn't procreate with the nat-gen (natural gene pool), but had a higher birth rate than the nat-gens, you'd see a resource squeeze until most likely the gen-eng crowd's numbers just tipped the teeter totter of life. Then the nat-gens would dwindle away over time.

Just a thought.

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Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated November 25, 2013 - 9:39am

@Strange - That is another story idea I'm working on, but I went the other way with it.

http://litreactor.com/workshop/sub/species-war-outline

There was no single industry standard 'upgrade' because people are clicky.  There were 18 versions of elves as the perfect people, 10 versions of Vulcans, some idiots who made Wookies, 14 flavors of Nietzschean ubermensch, and so on.  Because of that the standard humans and the upgrades that can breed with them are always squeezing out what are, on paper, more survivable creatures.

I may fold this no X stuff into that.

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Thuggish from Vegas is reading Day of the Jackal November 26, 2013 - 10:54pm

You know, I've said for over ten years that interaction breeds racism...

Anyway, maybe the declining birth rate is the extinct person, then?  Between interracial breeding and the birth control pill, maybe in a few hundred years there are almost no white people left in the world?  If you're half white, half whatever, they round it off, and you'll never get a blonde in a mixed race, so that makes them really, really rare and sought after.  

Then there's the turmoil in the hot blonde chic's head for wanting to not let her race die, but wanting to get with a brown guy at the same time or something.  And the brown guy both loves the blonde and resents his love for her because he's so hooked on blondes that he wants her to have more blondes and keep them going, who is he to rob the world of this rare treasure?

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JEFFREY GRANT BARR from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my life November 27, 2013 - 12:33am

Hai, guys. 

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Flaminia Ferina from Umbria is reading stuff November 27, 2013 - 3:47am

Hate is a weird beast. Some people only speak and understand hate. If one target group would disappear, those hater people would find another group to hate, because they need to hate whatever or else they would have to start questioning themselves and their motives, they would see that they live in some kind of void of affection and reason, and they'd have to start understanding life all over again like from whimper no.1. 

But they will not want to understand life, so they'll kill themselves as soon as their target group disappears or stops responding to fire, because the cognitive dissonance will be too disruptive. So much people can't let go of blaming each other. 

Moreover, discrimination quickly gets out of hand when it reaches the weaker souls, even if it starts just like some sort of business-driven indifference. As a matter of fact, it always starts with someone in power saying 'x is more advantageous than y', quickly all fools will want to be in the winner side unless it is visibly undeniable that they belong to y. They just don't understand it's all so arbitrary, they could fall in the visibly undeniable group themselves anytime 24/7.

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Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated December 1, 2013 - 12:28am

@Thuggish - 

If you're half white, half whatever, they round it off, and you'll never get a blonde in a mixed race, so that makes them really, really rare and sought after.

Well seldom, not never but yeah could be.  Could also be the way there aren't many albino models.

@FF - 

Hate is a weird beast.

True.

If one target group would disappear, those hater people would find another group to hate

Pretty much, yeah.  I think if I put this all in a pot it will come out more as hate toward the obvious not 'human' groups.

But they will not want to understand life, so they'll kill themselves as soon as their target group disappears or stops responding to fire, because the cognitive dissonance will be too disruptive.

I think this might be wishful thinking.

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Flaminia Ferina from Umbria is reading stuff November 27, 2013 - 6:44am

I think this might be wishful thinking.

lol yeah it is, but not so fast: there was this one homophobic old dude who recently shot himself inside a French church because he just didn't get it anymore..

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Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated November 27, 2013 - 7:19am

One.  And you used the plural.  In a statistical sense he doesn't count.

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Flaminia Ferina from Umbria is reading stuff November 27, 2013 - 7:30am

He does count in an evolutionary perspective, though.

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Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated November 27, 2013 - 7:33am

He was 78, so he'd lived long enough to have kids and add in them being raised, so not really.

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Flaminia Ferina from Umbria is reading stuff November 27, 2013 - 7:35am

yeah, but his example was all over the internet!

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Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated November 27, 2013 - 7:36am

And it doesn't seem anyone is following it.

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Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics November 27, 2013 - 7:38am

I'm no homophobe in the least, but I understand the urge to end the confusion of modern life. Though, when I give in to that urge, I hope to take a few with me. I don't see what the issue is with gays, or minorities, or whatever demographic you care to mention. We're all walking piles of shit, and no one stinks any less than anyone else. So, yeah, I don't get any of this humanity stuff anymore, either, but not because of some delusional bigoted bullshit - I just don't get any of it.

Anyway, I digress.

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Flaminia Ferina from Umbria is reading stuff November 27, 2013 - 7:41am

And it doesn't seem anyone is following it.

In fact, I hope nobody does. It would just be cute if we all could accept others' different lifestyles without feeling threatened by them just because we don't get it.

EDIT: added Dwayne's quote

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Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics November 27, 2013 - 7:44am

Amen to that, Flaminia. It's the sheer number of people who can't accept things as they are instead of trying to make things match a big fictional fairy tale book, that I don't 'get' at all.

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jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like November 27, 2013 - 7:46am

They just can't accept that all people are walking piles of shit with equal stink?

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Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics November 27, 2013 - 7:55am

Nope. They wrap themselves in delusions of exceptionalism and refuse to admit that the stench of mankind is their stench too.

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jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like November 27, 2013 - 7:59am

Total depravity? Original sin?

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Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics November 27, 2013 - 8:01am

No, no, I'm not saying the religious whackamoles think they are faultless in theory, but they sure as hell see themselves as apart from and/or above the 'heathen masses'.

We're really going off on a tangent, sorry, Dwayne.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated November 27, 2013 - 4:25pm

No, if nothing else it would be in the history books of the sci fi I want too start next year.

I don't think that it is really fair to blame religion into all this though.  Hate groups (and scum bags in general) exist all across the religious spectrum, so you know whatever.  I mean come on, the Westboro Baptist Church is religious the same way that NAMBLA are supporters of gay rights.

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Thuggish from Vegas is reading Day of the Jackal November 30, 2013 - 11:12pm

@ Strange Photon

To give you a challenge- you say we're all walking pieces of shit, fair enough.  But we all have the same level of shitty stinkiness?  I assume you don't mean individuals, so let's go with groups.  

Either you talk about it in terms of our potentials- i.e. what we're born with, and then I'd have to agree with you.

But, if you talk about the state of, let's say adults to make it easy, then maybe not.  Certain places with certain peoples you will find a lot more rape, murder, forced marriage, torture, etc.  Other places you will find less.  Call it a product of your environment, I'd say my and my neighbors' shit smells not nearly as bad as those from... well, you fill in the blank.