Natso's picture
Natso from Mongolia is reading Moby Dick March 26, 2014 - 8:04pm

Hey everyone,

My name is Natso. I'm an ESL writer from Mongolia.

I've been reading Ted Chiang's interview about how he tried to "closely emulate" Asimov's and Arthur C. Clarke's writing.

Also, I took Mechanics of Short Story class by Richard Thomas (which I highly recommend), and I've been trying to find/develop my own voice or style.

These got me wondering about what constitutes as emulating. Obviously, nobody wants to plagiarize. But I remember reading this book on high school composition a long time ago. In it, there was an example of emulating R.L. Stevenson's style from "Treasure Island" with an example of "Pieces of five! Pieces of five!" (I can't remember the rest or the title of the book)

I mean there's a saying of "We write under the light of every word we read" (or something like this), so people are always being influenced by various other writers, subconsciously or consciously.

But, what should you try to learn when you emulate? My understanding is the following. I might be wrong on some of them and I'd appreciate any thoughts of you guys on this:

- Sentence structure: If there's fronting, alliteration or any peculiar / poignant sentence that moves you, it might be worth propagating it for more audiences by incorporating it in your work.

- Idioms: As an ESL, my weakness is obviously idioms and certain expressions. But by copying the idioms, I feel like I'm risking plagiarizing the whole idea.

- Paragraph flow: This is probably not what I mean when I say this. I can't put my finger on it yet, but when I read some authors like Ted Chiang and Stephen King (especially Mile 81), the paragraph carries me softly, and even if I skim it, I could still get more than the gist of it.

- Idea Concepts: Sometimes, there are great concepts, especially but not limited to, sci-fi that stays with you for months. Some are totally new to you, but I'm mulling over this novel about Brain-computer interface and I come across many other authors who had already tackled this idea. Now I don't know how to react to it. Should I express this concept in different wording? Should I include the certain terms (e.g. grok) as homage? If you're inspired by a certain concept in an author's work and you want to include it in your own, should you cite it somehow, even if it was a fiction?

That's about it for me. Obviously, there's the vocabulary. But I don't try to emulate it as much as I used to. As Stephen King said, it's not about how much you have. It's about how you use it.

So what does everyone think? What do you mean when you say you were influenced by some author? 

L.W. Flouisa's picture
L.W. Flouisa from Tennessee is reading More Murakami March 27, 2014 - 4:26pm

None of those I would suggest (or not suggest) emulating per say, though what I definitely not recommend attempting to emulate what might on further research turn out to be a fictionalized biography. Oh, and then claim it as your own biography.

No I'm not one of those that believes everyones life experience is the same. But generally fictionalized biographies are a different animal from regular fiction anyway.

For example trying to emulate Tom Sawyer. Or Mary Poppins (even beyond the copywrite issues, a lot of stuff was obviously a fictionalized P.L. Travers.)

In other words, borrow the tropes but not the character themself.

Natso's picture
Natso from Mongolia is reading Moby Dick March 31, 2014 - 8:06am

Hi Sarah Weaver_2! Thanks for replying me.

OK, I guess it's a case by case thing. Yeah, after having written this post, I wasn't sure if I wanted a regular, quantified emulating from other writers every time I read something.

But part of the reason, I was asking it is because I've been avoiding reviewing other writer's works in the same genre lest I unconsciously plagiarize their idea. Sometimes a story is so poignant that it somehow shimmies into my writing and even though I modify it, I am still influenced by the idea.

I recently discovered Ken Liu's blog and I agree with the idea of stories being "literary dialogues by authors", responding to each other's stories as said in this article. In fact, he's been writing about things that I was exactly thinking about. This guy's one story won Hugo, Nebula and World Fantasy for the first time, btw.  

You would suggest emulating neither what I said above, nor fictionalized biographies? Is that what you mean? In the latter, aren't fictionalized biographies -- semi-autobiographies a thing? I for one know a British guy who published one about his life here in Mongolia.

Also, I agree with not borrowing the character, but learning of the tropes. 

Natso

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated March 28, 2014 - 1:12pm

I don't know if it helps, but Brandon Sanderson wrote 3 books to finish Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, and he seemed to do a wonderful job of writing like Jordan.  There were about 2 paragraphs that didn't seem like Jordan out of about 400,000 words.  Sanderson put a lot of his thought processes in his blog.

L.W. Flouisa's picture
L.W. Flouisa from Tennessee is reading More Murakami March 28, 2014 - 6:47pm

To clarify, I'm not against emulating style.:P

But to answer your question. Like I might emulate the sentence structure of say William Gibson and P.L. Travers, though I wouldnt take stories.

Not sure if that makes sense.:/

Linda's picture
Linda from Sweden is reading Fearful Symmetries March 29, 2014 - 1:46pm

Regarding style, I wouldn't worry. Even if your goal was to emulate the writing of author X perfectly, we're not all Brandon Sanderson (I haven't read Jordan or Sanderson, but it seems pretty damn impressive). I think the idea is more to look at authors you enjoy reading and figure our what it is that they do that you like. As an example, sometimes before I sit down to write I read a few pages from a book by an author whose style I like (and is similar to how I write/want to write), just to sort of ease into the rhythm. Similarly, some authors I absolutely cannot read before writing because I'll subconsciously sponge up some of their quirks.  

 

But part of the reason, I was asking it is because I've been avoiding reviewing other writer's works in the same genre lest I unconsciously plagiarize their idea. Sometimes a story is so poignant that it somehow shimmies into my writing and even though I modify it, I am still influenced by the idea.

Again, I wouldn't worry. The author whose idea you are influenced by was influenced by the idea(s) of others and so it goes, infinitely.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated March 29, 2014 - 3:07pm

It is very impressive.  I'd been reading the books for about 15 or 20 years when he took over, most of them at least 6 or 8 times, so I wasn't expecting it to be that smooth when he took over after Jordan's death.  I'd agree on not worrying, and it wasn't just a magic gift or happenstance.  His other works read VERY differently and he was already a fan who put a ton of time into it.  He goes into a lot of detail in his blog, and if nothing else it is an interesting read.

http://brandonsanderson.com/category/blog/

Jake Leroy's picture
Jake Leroy from Kansas City is reading Jesus' Son, by Denis Johnson, and Hot Water Music, by Charles Bukowski March 30, 2014 - 4:14pm

I guess I'm confused. We might be able to emulate someone else's style in an adequate way, but why? Style is superficial and sometimes fleeting. Style does not account for passion, nuance or subtext.

Instead, every writer should be striving for their own voice. Your voice may be entirely different than someone whose style you think you want to emulate. Developing voice makes us unique. Copying style makes us just another wannabe and less than we could be.

I realize this may be blasphemy to some, but a writer's journey should not be primarily to attract a specific market, but to make us the best writers we can be and therefore identify where we truly belong. All great writing comes organically from our psyches, or experiences, our joys and our pain. That's where the real gold lies, not the pyrite that belongs to someone else. 

Vonnegut Check's picture
Vonnegut Check from Baltimore March 30, 2014 - 6:06pm

I wonder if the problem too isn't the term voice; too often we try to find our voice. But shouldn't it be pluralized? Different protagonists should have different voices, to a degree at the very least. Otherwise the writer runs the risk of getting in the way of the story.

Jake Leroy's picture
Jake Leroy from Kansas City is reading Jesus' Son, by Denis Johnson, and Hot Water Music, by Charles Bukowski March 30, 2014 - 8:07pm

Interesting idea. To me, characters have attributes which can be shown in dialog, monolog, etc. To my reckoning that's not the same as voice. (Writer's) voice is far more complex than simple character.

This gets back to emulation versus voice. We can write the same characters as other writers (if we're good enough) but I would argue we cannot emulate voice. It is a writer's fingerprint.

In a way, I will agree with you. I believe that a writer can use different aspects of their own voice to create characters. I would argue that completely different types of characters can be drawn from the same well (writer's voice) and be completely unique. I don't want to argue over the definitions of a word.

Yes, the writer can get in the way of his characters and stories, that's not the same thing as utilizing your unique voice. That would be akin to simply bad writing. Based on your handle, you're a fan of Vonnegut. I too love his work. He had a very clear and distinctive voice. That voice is what made him great, not trying to emulate somebody else's style. Harlan Ellison has it, Bradbury did, Raymond Carver had it, Amy Hempel and Ann Beattie also and too many others to bore everyone with. This is a much visited topic of discussion among writers where I live and I love the discussion. My belief is that deep inside every writer is a unique, true, valuable voice, but let's get beyond the mere word. Why be mediocre and emulate someone else when we have unique, one-of-a kind brilliance buried, ready to be brought out with work and practice? That's what I'd rather work on developing, along with proper practice habits and technical skills like creating interesting characters. 

Fun discussion.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated March 30, 2014 - 11:30pm

Instead, every writer should be striving for their own voice...but a writer's journey should not be primarily to attract a specific market...

That ignores a lot of the world we write in.  On an artistic level some projects, like Sanderson or the Khaavren Romances, require a certain amount of emulation.  It can also be a learning exercise.  On a practical level it might have something to do with a working writer's ability to make a living.

Jake Leroy's picture
Jake Leroy from Kansas City is reading Jesus' Son, by Denis Johnson, and Hot Water Music, by Charles Bukowski March 31, 2014 - 6:22am

You've touched on some interesting points. Simple emulation doesn't produce great writing on its own, but it can be competent writing and perhaps sellable writing. Great writing comes from our experiences and observations of the world, coupled with our intellectual and emotional understanding to make sense of it. I completely agree with you, there is value in learning technique and style as a primer and foundation, but that is only competency. I believe that finding our greatest expression in stories through our unique voice will help us to find the niche in the market where we best fit and can prosper.

Let's use the example of artists. Picasso was a good illustrator and could have made a decent living at it. Instead, he chose to express what was deep inside, which turned out to be fantastic abstract art that came from the core of his being. It wasn't as marketable when he started; his genius helped create the market.

Writers are a dime a dozen. To stand out amidst the madding crowd of that enormous bell curve requires something greater. I submit that like Picasso, our greatness comes from within, not outside emulation. Why be good when we can find a way to be great?

Angel Colón's picture
Angel Colón from The Bronx now living in New Jersey is reading A Big Ol' Pile of Books March 31, 2014 - 6:58am

I've taken a peek at old notebooks of teenage me as a writer and let me tell you: I was a MASSIVE Clive Barker wannabe.

But when you think of it, we all learn by imitating. Now, what we do with the foundation is what really matters. My writing now is probably not unbelievably unique, but if it wasn't for that imitation/emulation, I think I'd be less of a writer now.

Jake Leroy's picture
Jake Leroy from Kansas City is reading Jesus' Son, by Denis Johnson, and Hot Water Music, by Charles Bukowski March 31, 2014 - 7:50am

Angel, that makes perfect sense. We do learn by imitating. It is a means to the end, but isn't the actual end. The fun stuff is what happens when we go beyond it.

Natso's picture
Natso from Mongolia is reading Moby Dick March 31, 2014 - 6:59pm

Thank you everyone for your thoughts. Really insightful. @Dwayne, thanks. It seems Brandon gets the respect he deserves from his fans, which is a lot. I remember stumbling into WoT wikipedia page at least once. :)

Up until March, I'd developed a routine of doing some short freewriting, right after I finish reading a novel in that novel's tone or voice. Not to publish it or show or anything, just as an exercise. Then I dropped it somehow. Now I think I'll pick it upü, because without doing that, now I feel like reading a novel has become like watching a movie: I just remember feeling great, I don't know remember what exactly I learned.

On one hand, having your own unique voice is important, but on the other hand I guess I have to look at what's been done before, and do what's not been done, or pick up something existing and breathe my own imprint into it to create something new.

Now that I think of it, this is what the teachers of Coursera class I took said at the end of a writing class.

(On an unrelated note, I just finished reading Get Shorty. I feel really bad for putting Elmore Leonard's name as Leonard Elmore on my profile stat. Great book, though. :D)

 

Linda's picture
Linda from Sweden is reading Fearful Symmetries March 31, 2014 - 8:12am

I don't know anything about Picasso, but my guess would be he started out learning classic drawing (painting fruit bowls to learn perspective, sketching nudes to master anatomy etc etc) and looking at the work of those that came before, studying different styles and what have you.  His style (or what we recognize as such) may have been unique, but it was probably the result of external influence as much as his own creativity and talent. To put it differently, I don't believe we start out with much of anything at the core. It's something that fills out over time.

I certainly agree that we shouldn't force out writing in a certain direction, but whatever "voice" is, it's unlikely to develop in a vacuum. To return to Picasso, I doubt he could've done abstract with as much authority if he hadn't mastered "realism" first.

@Dwayne, thanks, I'll check out the blog.

Jack Campbell Jr.'s picture
Jack Campbell Jr. from Lawrence, KS is reading American Rust by Phillipp Meyer March 31, 2014 - 8:58am

Picasso wasn't unique until fairly late in the game. You start seeing the hints of his cubist structures around 1906 in "Two Nudes," but prior to that he was a classical realist, so your analogy holds up well.

I am favor of a classical education for writers, as well. You should have an idea of what came before you and why their work was important, what worked and what didn't work, etc. On top of that, there is the old saying, what is old is new. You might find the seed of something in the past that will shake things up in the present. We begin by imitation until one day we find we are no longer imitating but originating. Classical training has a long history in music and art. Writing shouldn't be much different.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated April 1, 2014 - 2:55pm

I never liked Picasso.  He always seems to have the annoying inability to convey information/feeling that abstract painters did and the mundanity of the realists at the same time.  Sort of a worst of both worlds.

@Jake - Well you seem to be missing my point, although for once most the folks here are getting it which is nice, thanks guys.  Some projects can be great writing from emulation and you can learn a lot from it.  Your voice should, and will, come over time.  That doesn't exclude learning to develop it by emulation of those whom you feel have a similar, or I suppose dramatically different, voice.  Plus it can help to break you out of a rut.  

Jake Leroy's picture
Jake Leroy from Kansas City is reading Jesus' Son, by Denis Johnson, and Hot Water Music, by Charles Bukowski March 31, 2014 - 3:18pm

Dwayne,

I think we actually agree. Emulation and study of style/classics are highly helpful. Practice of any kind helps our writing, since it gets us to write. My only distinction was emulation as a destination. Unfortunately, emulation as destination is derivative, not to say it isn't highly useful. You are totally right about using it to break out of a rut.

I approach my work from the standpoint of writing my unique best and writing something that sells. Editors of publications that I've been in contact with have consistently talked about fresh, non-derivative work. Every once in a while I run into a magazine or journal that will say something like, "We love Palahniuk, if you write like that, bring it." Most don't. You may know this, but others may not. A lot of editors/publishers are inundated with hundreds or even thousands of submissions a month. How do they differentiate? They look for prose that gets their attention, doesn't let go and doesn't sound like what everybody else is writing.

MattF's picture
MattF from Tokyo is reading Borges' Collected Fictions April 1, 2014 - 4:53am

Jake Leroy's picture
Jake Leroy from Kansas City is reading Jesus' Son, by Denis Johnson, and Hot Water Music, by Charles Bukowski April 1, 2014 - 3:09pm

Matt-perfect.

Here is an excerpt from the writings of Leonard Bishop. If you don't know who he is, you should find out. His book, Dare to be a Great Writer is a must have. He's regarded as one of the best writing teachers in ever. Wiki him. I came across this some time ago, and it has always stuck with me.

"What you say about writers entering a dark room when they begin, and they adjust to the darkness and become less fearful because there is nothing in the room that can harm them, is right. But you leave out a significant detail. Writers bring someone into the dark room with them--themselves, They bring in their restraint, their shame, their anger, their doubts, their parents, their friends and all the terrors they tried to hide all their lives. And unless they write about this, they may find light in the room, in time, but none in themselves."

Eff me, those are great, wise words. You want to write? You want to be published? You want to be GREAT?

That's how.

L.W. Flouisa's picture
L.W. Flouisa from Tennessee is reading More Murakami April 1, 2014 - 11:44am

I want to favorite that poster. Though not saying reading is bad if course, but reading a classic shouldn't be the only inspiration.:/

Linda's picture
Linda from Sweden is reading Fearful Symmetries April 1, 2014 - 12:52pm

We begin by imitation until one day we find we are no longer imitating but originating.

@Jack, well put. Second only to Bruce, but then he's got a poster, which could be considered an unfair advantage.

 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated April 1, 2014 - 3:02pm

@Jake - I'm pretty sure we are not agreeing.  I don't believe there is such a thing as a new idea.  Maybe original in the sense you came up with it independently, but nothing new.   Most times it is better to not worry about, and deliberate imitation has limits, but I think that has more to do with the fact we imitate things different than the best work we can put out.

Jack Campbell Jr.'s picture
Jack Campbell Jr. from Lawrence, KS is reading American Rust by Phillipp Meyer April 2, 2014 - 4:50am

@Linda That's okay. If I was shirtless on a poster, I wouldn't look nearly as cool as Bruce. 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated April 2, 2014 - 7:25am

Jack, you're too modest.