Todd Sullivan's picture
Todd Sullivan from America is reading Workshop fiction March 7, 2013 - 3:37pm

So...I hate to be *that* guy starting a conversation like this that'll probably be deemed a bit sensitive. I've been a member of LitReactor for a couple of months now. The other day, I got in a bit of a tiff over a review I did for a story here, and when I went back to see the final comments for the story, I noticed that someone pretty high up on the Points Leaderboard had also offered a critique.

This person is high up enough and has been on the site so long that I kind of figured that maybe he was one of the sites original founding members. I belong to a couple of other writing sites, and I've noticed that it sometimes works that way; the most active, oldest members tend to have some type of direct affiliation with the site. So curious, I decided to do something that I never do for websites: read the 'About the Site' page. Though there was no information about the site founders there, I saw that clearly marked below it is 'Team LitReactor'. I was at work with nothing to do at the moment, and so I thought, why not?

So I clicked on it, and I scrolled down, and I thought, "Interesting".

When you click on 'Team LitReactor', two other links appear: 'Contributors' and 'Instructors'. And again I clicked, and again, and I scrolled down, and I thought, "Huh."

I have two degrees in writing, and I've been to conferences and lectures and author readings and signings and award ceremonies, etc., for the past twenty years, and I have to say that I'm a little surprised that, though I could be wrong, this site seems to have little, but really no, people of colour in any way associated with it. And I know we've come to an age where affirmative action is a bad word, and people are more inclined to say they're simply hiring the best person for the job in question. Which I guess is groovy, except I find it almost hard, if not impossible to believe, that out of what looks like 60 writers, there's not one black author, one Asian author, one middle eastern author, one Latin author, etc. 

Now, one or two of the faces posted could be of a diverse race/culture/ethnicity, I can't really tell. But having to kind of squint your eyes and guess means that whatever they could be, it's not as distinctive as, say, someone who is definitely ethnically/cultural/racially diverse. And like I said, I hate to be that person starting a conversation like this, but being a person of colour where a lot of people of different races and backgrounds tend to populate my fiction, it does worry me a bit when I submit fiction and the idea that many of the people judging the work are not only not in any way representative by those I often represent, but also seem to be surrounded by those that don't have a more intimate understanding of different races/ethnicities/cultures.

For example, I always appreciate critiques and suggestions I get. However, one I appreciate a lot less is when people complain about the names of my characters being too complicated. And the question becomes, well, why would people living in an Asian country have easier names? Jackie Chan's real name isn't actually Jackie. And I also wonder to myself, well, don't you have friends from different countries not born in America and who has decided not to take American names? Or who have American names, but you've known them long enough that you actually know their real names?

But then, when I come to this site, and I look at the people and their names who are behind the scenes of the site, it does become a bit of a worry. How often does a person affiliated with LitReactor talk to someone whose name isn't Christopher or Sarah or Eric or Chuck? And when they see fiction taking place in South Africa or China or Thailand, and they see a main character in the first line of the story named Kong-sang in the slush pile, is this something that makes them put down the work faster because of the foreignness, and so difficulty, of the name?

So anyway, I know a thread like this can become ugly fast, and I kind of regret discovering this. But hey, I figured I paid my dues to join, so I may as well voice my observation.

todd

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry March 7, 2013 - 4:06pm

At last, e-stalking me has led to something troubling.

Let this be a lesson to the rest of you.

 

 

Since you did say you found "not one", I must challenge you with the name Rajan Khanna, who writes the fantasy column for the site.  If you look at his photo you really don't have to squint.

Would you like to change your statement from "not one" to "not enough"?

Todd Sullivan's picture
Todd Sullivan from America is reading Workshop fiction March 7, 2013 - 4:34pm

That is true, I did miss that one name out of about 60 featured individuals posted.

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts March 7, 2013 - 4:52pm

It's more like 25 or so, and that of a pretty diverse group of people unless you're qualifying them on whatever extremely superficial level you prefer. Pretty sure they're not the KKK.

Sound's picture
Sound from Azusa, CA is reading Greener Pastures by Michael Wehunt March 7, 2013 - 5:05pm

Hi Todd. Did you mean site admin/columnists, or workshop users?

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig March 7, 2013 - 5:06pm

Stephen Graham Jones also writes for this site and he's Native American. Just off the top of my head. There is also a really large group of women writers directly associated with the site... I think perhaps you were only looking for specific minorities... which is kind of funny, considering.

The minorities associated with LitReactor aren't big enough minorities for you... I mean, come on... I'm chuckling.

Mess_Jess's picture
Mess_Jess from Sydney, Australia, living in Toronto, Canada is reading Perfect by Rachael Joyce March 7, 2013 - 5:10pm

I understand the point you're making and it's something that frustrates me when I sift through my slush piles at both PP and EV: the POV is so middle class, white, and American. Though, you leave out male -- which is also  a predominant factor in the slush I read. I recently answered some questions for a blogger who interviews editors and one of my laments was this very point -- please give me something culturally diverse, and I encouraged people to research and write from viewpoints that are different from their own life experience. I grew up in a culturally diverse area of Australia, so lots of submissions from the one culturally viewpoint are a bit strange for me.

That being said, you've introduced this topic as something that started off with some (probably minor) conflict you experienced with this site, and I do think that may have coloured your comments on what is an important topic. The founders here are a nice bunch of people who, from what  I understand, knew each other in the industry. If getting a position at Litreactor was a matter of getting interviewed and going through a process, I would be utterly outraged it's mostly a bunch of white people. But it's not. It's a group of talented, experienced people in writing and publishing that knew each other. Does your circle of friends look like the cast of Community, with a white girl, a jewish girl, a black lady, a black athletic guy, an old racist, rich white guy, a young white rich guy, and a half Palestinian, half Polish American? Friendship groups aren't always a racially diverse slice of life. 

[Plus, Phil's kinda hairy and Portugese, doesn't that count for anything? Hehe.]

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig March 7, 2013 - 5:15pm

To be fair, it doesn't appear that Stephen Graham Jones is listed on the "team" page, though he did just have a great article up and is an instructor here. I think it's a stretch to say that LR is a big white demon considering that there are, most definitely, ethnic minorities, there is a huge number of women working here (which believe it or not, is NOT that common when it comes to being respected in writing communities), and there are some other marginalized and minority groups represented among the instructors and columnists (though the instructors don't appear to be listed completely on the Team LitReactor page, either). Perhaps the lesson here is that you should do more than click a single link before making vast judgments on an entire site.

And perhaps, don't do your research when you're pissed about a personal slight, or you might find confirmation bias working against you.

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry March 7, 2013 - 6:54pm

That is true, I did miss that one name out of about 60 featured individuals posted.

Of course, you didn't answer my question.  Would you like to change your statement from "not one" to "not enough"?  The reason I ask, obviously, is to get you to commit to something measurable.  Do you have a number, a quota if you will, of various minorities you would like to see work (for free) for LitReactor?

 

Also, at least one of the regular columnists is gay. 

You do have to squint to see that one, though.  Geez, they look so much like everybody else...

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated March 7, 2013 - 6:58pm

Considering that the number of people who speak English, have internet access, and the free time to try to be a writer is far more white a group then the site membership it is fairly diverse. Do you have any specific suggestions regarding who wishes to be included as staff or membership that would result in that happening or are you just complaining pointlessly? 

OtisTheBulldog's picture
OtisTheBulldog from Somerville, MA is reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz March 7, 2013 - 7:28pm

it does worry me a bit when I submit fiction and the idea that many of the people judging the work are not only not in any way representative by those I often represent, but also seem to be surrounded by those that don't have a more intimate understanding of different races/ethnicities/cultures.

Other people have addressed some of your other points, so I'm going to address this snipet and what came after it, from my perspective. 

I personally wouldn't write off your story because of the names. I don't really care about the names. I care about the story. I've read and reviewed stories by other writers at this very site that are minorities in foreign countries and their stories have spoken to that feeling of alienation. I was drawn in by the story, and by a perspective i didn't have a way to relate to because I didn't live that life. I learned a great deal from it and by exchanging messages. And isn't that what reading is about - to get a new perspective and make you question your world around you?

Maybe what you consider to be a problem to be a new challenge - here's an audience that you have the ability to share a unique perspective with. 

This leads me to the last bit of what I quoted above - it comes off very judge-y. Sorry if I misinterpreted, but it seems you scanned a collection of head shots, saw a bunch of whites and then just figured that they don't have an 'intimate' understanding of different cultures. Well, 'intimate' to me is basically me and what it was like growing up where I did in a very specific setting. You can't speak to that in the same way I can't speak to yours. But you're coming off very, very prejudiced, even if you may not mean to be. Almost like, 'if you're white, you can't  really dig what I'm doing' so you're writing off a bunch of the potential reviewers without knowing them or having any idea or clue what their life experience is. So is the inverse true of a story one of these headshots might submit? Should they not appreciate you 'judging' their work? 

All that said, welcome to LR. This reminds me I've been lax in the workshop and if/when I do come across one of your submissions, I'll give you my honest feedback on your work. And I hope that's good enough, for what it's worth.

Todd Sullivan's picture
Todd Sullivan from America is reading Workshop fiction March 7, 2013 - 9:15pm

Hm. Lots of questions, some of which I won't get to.

1) I started off with the tiff not because it was important to the point I made. Things like that happen so often in the workshop environment that they become easy to shrug off. Funny thing is I started out how I came to viewing the who's who page of LitReactor simply to *lessen* the impact of what I was saying. I did a review of someone's writing, they got upset, someone did a review, I wondered if this older member had something to do with the making of the site, etc., etc, which led me to writing this thread.

2) I got this info from the 'Team LitReactor', 'Contributors', and 'Instructors' pages. There's some redundancy in those pages. It looks like it's more than 25 but perhaps it's less than 60.

3) Jones was who I was thinking of when I mentioned squinting. It's funny, I didn't notice Rajan's name, but his picture is distracting, drinking beer and playing pool and all. It's the only one like that listed, and my eyes never drifted further down to his actual name. 

4) I'm not sure what research would be needed to be done, but the three links that show a large number of writers associated to the site are as they are. If there are more diverse writers, perhaps they should be displayed along with everyone else.

5) Do I have a quota? No, but considering the large number of people listed on the links of the site, it's a bit interesting to say the least that of 25 to 60 individuals, there are I guess one person of Indian(?) descent, one person of Native American descent, and that seems to be it. There are a lot of women, but women have been a major force behind publishing for years now. If you've ever submitted pieces, or looked for employment in publishing, for the large house to small indie prints, it's mostly women you'll see as contacts.

The world of writing, the authors and essayists and poets and playwrights, is really diverse. To not find it a bit odd that 2 of, let's say 35, people listed directly on the site is nonwhite is, well, odd. 

Jonathan Riley's picture
Jonathan Riley from Memphis, Tennessee is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland March 7, 2013 - 9:51pm

Todd,

Most of the people reading and rating work in the workshop are other paying members like yourself. Some people directly involved with the site will review from time to time but most of your criticism is coming from other amatuer writers trying to improve their craft.  I've come accross a wide variety of nationalities.

Also, If I start reading a story, I read it all, all the way through and offer my honest oppinion. I once read a 56 page story set in Mexico. Usually the length of a piece will be my only deterent for sometimes it can be hard to find time to give a really long work my full attention.

Other than that I love being introduced through fiction to cultures I may not have had the opportunity to in life. While I may not be able to relate in the way you mention, A good writer will challenge his reader and hopefully give them a profound understanding of the culture embedded within their story.

But if you don't think the site is right for you because someone didn't like your review, and this led you to discover that most people here that spend hours and hours of their week helping other writers for free (Actually I spend about 20 hours a week on reviews or other activities and I pay 9 dollars a month) are white, then I think you need to look deeper to discover the real solution to your problem.

Covewriter's picture
Covewriter from Nashville, Tennessee is reading & Sons March 7, 2013 - 9:55pm

Anyone can join the site for a small fee. While i appreciate your call for equality, I suggest you don't make this your hill to die on. ( Pardon the cliche). Ive never encountered racism . This is not a racist site. You are talking to liberal writers. Perhaps that is why you chose to present this, knowing folks here will be sympathetic.  They are! I didn't look at the photos of people. I have no idea the races or sexes of some od the people here. If you think there aren't enough minorities, spread the word and have minorities sign up. I'm  sure they wont be kept from joining. Bring it friend! 

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig March 7, 2013 - 10:10pm

Oh honestly. Stephen Graham Jones is NA, you've got Rajan Khanna, you've got someone on the Team LitReactor page named "Rosales" which, I can assure you, is not an Anglo-Saxon name. As Utah mentioned, there are gay contributors, many female contributors, and yes, even one instructor who is open about her work as a sex worker. I defy you to find a place with more diversity--but because YOU were only looking for people who you could easily pigeon hole as a minority YOU missed it. 

It's odd that you would accuse the site of some sort of racial prejudice when you are so obviously making this judgement by scrolling down and looking to see who looks "colored" enough.

And further, you are incorrect in another assumption-- the leaderboard is filled with members just like yourself, there actually isn't much workshop participation from the founding members.

And Jess is right, Phil Jourdan is Portuguese.

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig March 7, 2013 - 10:13pm

There are a lot of women, but women have been a major force behind publishing for years now. If you've ever submitted pieces, or looked for employment in publishing, for the large house to small indie prints, it's mostly women you'll see as contacts.

I beg you to post some kind of proof of this, as outside certain specific genres, everything I have ever read has made it clear that is not true. Further, even if it were true, it does not change the fact that women are a marginalized group that still do not experience equal employment.

OtisTheBulldog's picture
OtisTheBulldog from Somerville, MA is reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz March 7, 2013 - 10:19pm

JR brings up a good point - the people 'judging' the work are the members, of which there are hundreds from all over the map from a variety of walks of life. Who helped start this site doesn't have much bearing on what members sign up and what members review in the workshop. I've been here over a year and I'm not even sure who founded the place.

Well, that is unless you want to believe that a lot of the members here first looked at the headshots of the site contributors and said, "hey - these are all white dudes, this is the spot for me. Here's my 9 bucks! Let's review a story!" 

But that would be kind of presumptious, no? I'm guessing most members, like myself, liked the structure, the forums, the craft content, etc - and didn't even think to research the ethnicities of whomever created this site.

Todd Sullivan's picture
Todd Sullivan from America is reading Workshop fiction March 7, 2013 - 10:39pm

I beg you to post some kind of proof of this, as outside certain specific genres, everything I have ever read has made it clear that is not true. Further, even if it were true, it does not change the fact that women are a marginalized group that still do not experience equal employment.

This is from "The Publisher's Weekly" in 2010: http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/publisher-news/article/44510-where-the-boys-are-not.html

Please let me know if the link works. The title of the article is 'Where Boys Are Not'. Also, a lot of the points made in the article get to part of my concern. Though I could not tell the seriousness of this statement made earlier:

Considering that the number of people who speak English, have internet access, and the free time to try to be a writer is far more white a group then the site membership it is fairly diverse.

My reply would be that there are myriad of people of colour writing, but they *are* underrepreented in the publishing world. This is partially my issue with the indiviuals this site decided to show.  How does a site which links to 25 to 50 authors on their main page have only, I suppose, two or three of colour?

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts March 7, 2013 - 10:49pm

I hear there're a lot of women involved in the Chick Lit genre.

 

And as not to gang up on this guy's almost fair point, as far as the workshop goes I review according to my whimsy personally, and the only ethnic or cultural comments I've made in critiques have been one or two occasions making comments on portraying female characters more realistically, and maybe a comment about writing different language-speaking characters, as per my bad recollection. Not that I'm female or am non-anglophone. About instructors I've expressed my interest in Southern writers and Africa Diasporic-centric writers, not so much because they're of my own cultural background but because they're pertinent to my writing, so yes, kinda because of my cultural background. But that's fiction, as far as the staff, that's determined by qualification and association, no matter how weird  the make-up of that ends up to be. I personally wouldn't like to be the Token Black Guy or Token Gay Dude  or whatever at anyplace I worked.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's Digest March 7, 2013 - 10:57pm

This is actually very simple. There are members here from all over the world and there's no way to control who does and doesn't join the site. I believe I am the person you are referring to who's high up on the leader board. If my assumption is wrong, I apologize. Lit Reactor was spawned from Chuck Palahniuk's fan site The Cult, where I was also a member. As far as I know, the founders and those that contribute have been moderators and contributors since The Cult days. While there may not be a whole lot of diversity here, that's something you can't control. What concerns me most is why race, ethnicity and culture are factors of your experience in the workshop. You can't just pigeonhole a group of people based on a photograph, where they live or the color of their skin. I'm sure that any story in any setting with any color of characters and cultural names won't be beyond what any of us would, or could, understand. Our life experiences far exceed what our photos show. If I were you, I'd check my prejudices at the door and let the reviews and feedback do the talking. I think you'll be quite surprised at the respones you get.  

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's Digest March 7, 2013 - 10:59pm

Edit: Double post

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's Digest March 7, 2013 - 11:10pm

 This is partially my issue with the indiviuals this site decided to show. 

- I'm not sure what 'individuals' you're referring to. Staff? Contributors? Members? The staff is the same staff who came The Cult, and they happened to be predominately white. I'm pretty sure that they showed all of themselves. I'm also pretty sure that the contributors are friends and colleagues of the staff or showed an interest in contributing. If a person of color shows an interest in contributing and can offer good insights into the world of writing, I'm sure that the staff would have no problem bringing them on. As for members, well like I said, that's not something you can control. Who joins is who joins. 

How does a site which links to 25 to 50 authors on their main page have only, I suppose, two or three of colour?

- This could be due to the fact that the majority of us here read and write the same types of stories. There's a common bond between transgressive, sci-fi, noir and literary. But, if you've got something different to bring to the table, by all means bring it. We're all open to new stories. It's not a racial issue, it's a commonality issue. 

Todd Sullivan's picture
Todd Sullivan from America is reading Workshop fiction March 7, 2013 - 11:31pm

If a person of color shows an interest in contributing and can offer good insights into the world of writing, I'm sure that the staff would have no problem bringing them on.

This is why I find it odd, though. I'm 35 years old, and I had my first serious workshop class one summer at Stanford in 1995. It was a small class, but I remember the professor was Asian, I remember two white guys, a black girl, a Japanese girl my age (17 at the time), and then me. I have taken many creative writing classes for undergraduate and graduate work since then, I've attended conferences, lectures, award ceremonies, camps, interned, and what I simply find curious after almost twenty years of being a part of the writing/publishing experience is how this site can manage the racial diversity it has today. And look, I'm actually not trying to say that the site creators are racist. But I am saying that it seems that they stuck to a certain comfort level throughout the development of the site and their writing careers. Because I find it hard swallowing the idea that more people of colour haven't been there to offer good insights into the world of writing. Which brings me to this:

This could be due to the fact that the majority of us here read and write the same types of stories. There's a common bond between transgressive, sci-fi, noir and literary.

There is really a lot of diverse people that don't seem represented on the linked pages showing those behind the scenes of this site.  Again, I don't think this is a conscious "Let's stick to our own" mentality that was exercised here. But unless in my experiences with writing, which have brought me from the deep south of Louisiana, to California, to New York, and Asia, and all in-between, I've simply had the strange luck to run into the many nonwhite people who are serious writers of both genre and literary fiction who have had insightful things to say on writing and publishing, then I submit, I do see how this site could have developed with the current cast it has today.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's Digest March 7, 2013 - 11:57pm

We still haven't gotten a solid answer as to why race is such an important factor to your experience here at Lit Reactor. 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated March 8, 2013 - 12:40am

@Cove - Mostly liberal writers.

@R. Moon - I thought that was the one sort of point he had, a boarder perspective would be nice since it might better allow a few more view points to affect our writing.

@Todd Sullivan - Link didn't work for me, have to use the link button in the tool bar. http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/publisher-news/article/44510-where-the-boys-are-not.html

My question stands, do you have any suggestions on how to get more members from other groups or are you just complaining/hoping someone else will? "Do X, stop doing Y," might be great, but you just seem to be saying we are too white.

Don't feel too attacked, the idea of not being inclusive is probably a sore spot here. I feel it is safe to say most of us strongly dislike the implication some group(s) aren't made to feel welcome, no matter the reason.

Todd Sullivan's picture
Todd Sullivan from America is reading Workshop fiction March 8, 2013 - 12:42am

We still haven't gotten a solid answer as to why race is such an important factor to your experience here at Lit Reactor.

Publishing, like many other occupations, often boils down to professional connections. Networking. No one wants to send in a piece that ends in the slush pile, and it's always better to know someone who may take more time looking at your writing. I've only been a member of this site for several months, but I see that there's a lot going on at LitReactor, and being part of this scene beyond the people submitting for critiques is going to be a lot more helpful in ones publishing career. Knowing the right people allows you to meet the right people.

When I look at the faces behind the scene of LitReactor, what I see is a lot of writers of colour who don't have this opportunity of networking. Is LitReactor the apex, or the terminal point, of publishing? No. But to deny it would be helpful to be part of the Team, the Contributors, or the Instructors is disingenuous. It is helpful on a professional level.

How does this personally affect my experience here now? I suppose at this particular moment, if this moment exists in a vacuum, it doesn't. But LitReactor isn't my first experience in the publishing, nor will it be my last. And it's makeup is representative of publishing in general, which does affect me. There's something telling in the fact that in the development of the site, it's "face" came to be as it is today. Now, many of the people behind the scenes may claim open-mindedness, but actions speak louder than words, and as I stated before, I'll state again, it's odd how, in the course of the years of this site's evolution, the people behind the curtain numbering 25 to 40 or 50, are almost all white. This begs the question of how open minded were they really?

Unless, like I said, it's simply been my experience to meet many more insightful nonwhite writers than those who are affiliated with this site got the chance to meet in their lifetimes.

Todd Sullivan's picture
Todd Sullivan from America is reading Workshop fiction March 8, 2013 - 12:45am

I'm not sure why the link didn't work, I just clicked it and it worked fine. Here it is again: http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/publisher-news/article/44510-where-the-boys-are-not.html

 

I used the link option in the toolbar this time.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated March 8, 2013 - 1:06am

I feel like you are dodging my question.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's Digest March 8, 2013 - 2:04am

@ Dwayne: I completely agree with you about that aspect.

My issue here is that you're complaining about not enough non-whites on the site, but again, there's nothing you can do about that aside from bringing in some of those non-white writers you know. I personally don't know any non-white writers, so I can't suggest that they come to the site.

When I look at the faces behind the scene of LitReactor, what I see is a lot of writers of colour who don't have this opportunity of networking. Is LitReactor the apex, or the terminal point, of publishing?

- I don't know where you're getting this from, but everyone here has the same opportunities to network. All you have to do is reach out to any one of us. It might help if we knew who your target audience is and what type of fiction you're writing. 

This is beginning to feel like you're blaming the way the site is set up simply on skin color. I find that somewhat condescending and prejudice. 

 Now, many of the people behind the scenes may claim open-mindedness, but actions speak louder than words, and as I stated before, I'll state again, it's odd how, in the course of the years of this site's evolution, the people behind the curtain numbering 25 to 40 or 50, are almost all white. This begs the question of how open minded were they really?

- First, the site's only been up for a year and a half. The founders of the site were already established and connected with one another from The Cult. Any of the magazine articles and essays pretty much encompass any genre of writing. If you're looking for specific publishers, any one of us will direct you to Duotrope. If a non-white person wants to join the site as a contributor I'm sure Kirk and the rest of the gang will be more than happy to bring them in. Those guys have lives, their own writing and running the site. I doubt they have a lot of time to actively seek out writers to round out the numbers. I'm all for diversity, but until non-white writers bring themselves to the site, well, it is what it is. 

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry March 8, 2013 - 6:17am

I believe I am the person you are referring to who's high up on the leader board.

Nuh uh!  That was me, yo!  *shoves R.Moon*

Unless Todd's been involved in fights over more than one review.

Are you a troll, Todd?  You're beginning to seem a bit troll-y.

Since this all is taking place over the interwebz, and since we all do have handles and emails, etc., have you sent messages to Kirk and Dennis to ask them why they have not sought out more minorities to contribute more pro bono work to the site?  Because the folks you're talking to now, i.e., the membership, we don't do the hiring and firing.  So realistically, your obvious Road to Change is to go back to that Team LitReactor page and write letters to Dennis and Kirk to express your concerns about the whiteness of the writing staff of the site.

It's pretty obvious by your dodgy answers that you have no actual defined goal for this conversation.  You enjoy arguing, yes, that's outstanding.  But if you feel you have an actual complaint then do not hesitate to PM the people who own LitReactor.  You can, if you choose, keep engaging everyone here with your self-serving half arguments.  That's all good.  Eventually, however, this thread will get nasty (the only reason it hasn't yet is that you opened with the topic of "race", which puts all the good liberals on their best behavior).  When it does get nasty, I will shut the thread down.

My advice:  Talk to Kirk and Dennis.

sean of the dead's picture
sean of the dead from Madisonville, KY is reading Peckerwood, by Jed Ayres March 8, 2013 - 6:50am

you opened with the topic of "race", which puts all the good liberals on their best behavior

I just wanted to say that was one of the first things I read today, and it will no doubt be the best thing I read today.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 8, 2013 - 8:50am

For someone who proclaims two decades of experience in the writing/publishing world, I find it 'odd', to use your catch-word, how many times you make its into it's when it should so clearly be its. I know, what a nit-picky, essentially unimportant, and not entirely fair thing to focus on, but hey, I'm a pretty nit-picky, unfair kind of guy.

On another, virtually unhelpful front, your workshop at Stanford that was such a melting pot of diversity, was AT STANFORD. I've worked in the Bay Area, and in Palo Alto (the town Stanford resides in) the population of whites is a marked minority. If you were there and there was an overabundance of whites, then you could cry race and let slip the fire hoses of war. You didn't see a sea of whites at Stanford, not because they are so enlightened and inclusive, but because one can only put food on the table that is already in the fridge.

I've been lurking here in the shadows for awhile, and used to be a contributing member in the workshop (hopefully will again soon), and all I've seen is people going out of their way to be inclusive - BUT YOU CAN ONLY INCLUDE THOSE WHO SHOW UP.

 

 

BTW - I'm not white, but you can't really tell from my headshot. I'm also part of the disabled demographic, and the ex-con demographic, so I alone check off several of the survey boxes you seem to reference every time you scan people's profiles for veins of white gold.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's Digest March 8, 2013 - 8:29am

@Utah: You and me at the flagpole after school. All weapons welcome, except of course, semi and fully automatics. I'll have a trident.  

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 8, 2013 - 8:35am

Now, you know a man is a bad-ass when he has a trident. That is some scary shit right there.

Jonathan Riley's picture
Jonathan Riley from Memphis, Tennessee is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland March 8, 2013 - 8:46am

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 8, 2013 - 8:48am

That video alone has convinced me that what LitReactor needs is a 'like' button... and naked women dispersing cookies.

But, yeah, definitely a 'like' button!

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's Digest March 8, 2013 - 8:52am

Aww. I was hoping for an Anchorman reference. 

 

Jonathan Riley's picture
Jonathan Riley from Memphis, Tennessee is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland March 8, 2013 - 9:00am

OtisTheBulldog's picture
OtisTheBulldog from Somerville, MA is reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz March 8, 2013 - 11:07am

BTW - I'm not white

Then how can you judge my work since you don't have an intimate understanding of my race and background?

Or is it a one way street? Are non-whites allowed to judge whites work since they're the minority and any/all prejudices may apply? 

I get confused on the rules of the game.

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig March 8, 2013 - 11:09am

When I look at the faces behind the scene of LitReactor, what I see is a lot of writers of colour who don't have this opportunity of networking. Is LitReactor the apex, or the terminal point, of publishing? No. But to deny it would be helpful to be part of the Team, the Contributors, or the Instructors is disingenuous. It is helpful on a professional level.

 

I think you've officially crossed over from "I'm not making any accusations, I'm just pointing out something odd" to accusing people of pointed racism, because I can't see why my skin color or other minority status would keep me from networking with you--but you seem to think it will?

Can "people of color" only network with "people of color"? Because you started out talking about "diversity" but when it was pointed out that there is, actually, a hell of a lot of social diversity as well as a reasonable amount of ethnic diversity, you come back to this term "people of color"... by which you don't mean light brown (because they are represented in the staff pages, and here)... So I'm forced to assume you mean African American? Because people here network based on one thing and one thing only--their belief in the other person's writing. Implying that you, personally, will have a hard time networking because the people who run the site don't look like you is a really strange position to take. Especially since the networking takes place in the workshop and forums where the people who run things aren't that active.

Further, I think you're making the mistake of believing that this site is limited to American writers. There are members and members of the team from all over the world. Again. Diversity. Just not the one, specific group you think you NEED to have to feel capable of networking. Very odd.

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig March 8, 2013 - 11:15am

I also have to note, that you are showing that you ran into this argument head first without much in the way of research almost every time you post. "In all the years of this site's evolution" that would be 1.5 years. That's it. They had a successful launch because people from The Cult group had their memberships migrated and they got some well known writers to promote the site before it fully launched. What you are seeing as "years" of development and growth, is actually a site that is only now really growing beyond a specific group of people. I can say that, because though I wasn't a member of The Cult, I joined the forums here within the first week of it opening up. I've watched the demographic here grow and change, and it has done so remarkably fast considering it's been less than 2 years.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 8, 2013 - 11:21am

@Otis: Not sure why you quoted something I wrote as merely an example of evidence that Todd's theory isn't as sound as he hopes it is, then proceeeded to assume I or anyone else who isn't Anglo was judging anything.

I'm guessing you thought Todd was making that statement, but even that would make little to no sense, which brings me back to confusion as to why you snarked at my side comment about not being Caucasian.

Perhaps I should go back and edit my post with some clear indication that I am actually agreeing with you and the rest of the people here, and disagreeing with Todd.

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig March 8, 2013 - 11:24am

I think he was being sarcastic, SP ;)

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry March 8, 2013 - 11:32am

Somebody's going to lose an eye over this.

OtisTheBulldog's picture
OtisTheBulldog from Somerville, MA is reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz March 8, 2013 - 11:33am

I was being sarcastic to point out the ridiculousness on the assumption that a) the workshop is strictly white males and b) if you're not in my club then you're simply 'judging the work are not only not in any way representative by those I often represent.' 

What's important to note here is this started with a "tiff" in the workshop. Meaning someone didn't like the way their work was critiqued. Wrong or right, that was the feeling. This inspired someone to then look up the demographic and say, "oh, they're white, they can't judge my work without an intiimate understanding of diversity" because if you're white you have no clue about other cultures.

Essentially this thread is a giant "hey, you don't get my work" butthurt over a critique and we got wrapped up into ridiculous conversations with someone who won't really answer any of the questions or points put forth. 

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 8, 2013 - 11:37am

Otis, that was my bad.

After I posted my semi-agro response to your sarcasm, I started to wonder if you were simply using my quote as a prop to make a point. Turns out, my first reaction isn't as spot on as usual. I apologize for having such an itchy trigger finger.

Feel free to kick me in the shins and run away. I deserve it.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 8, 2013 - 11:39am

And Utah, I will spare Otis his eye.

I got my aggressions out on the shit ball outside my apartment building who was blasting country music from his pickup truck. God, I hate country music.

OtisTheBulldog's picture
OtisTheBulldog from Somerville, MA is reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz March 8, 2013 - 11:41am

Nah, it's cool, SP. Sarcasm is heavily used in White Male Communication, and we have become well versed in it. You, not being white, simply don't pick up on this quite as fast because you're not intimately aware of my culture. 

But, I am confident we can get past our cultural language barriers and some day we may be able to appreciate one anothers work.

Point is, I should have used a smiley. 

OtisTheBulldog's picture
OtisTheBulldog from Somerville, MA is reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz March 8, 2013 - 11:42am

God, I hate country music.

Racist.

(so do I, mostly)

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 8, 2013 - 11:46am

Honestly, I used to hate smileys, but have grown to find them invaluable in the communicating of subtext, not to mention the prevention of foot in mouth disease.

Hey, I am not racist in the least. I loathe all ethnicities equally. Though, so long as she didn't sing, I wouldn't mind putting Taylor Swift to good use from time to time.

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry March 8, 2013 - 11:47am

Oh boy, this thing is really going to spin into some weird directions.

I'll stick up for Todd for a moment.  He did not get butthurt over a review of his work.  He reviewed someone else's work.  The someone else did not feel he was being all he could be in the review process and engaged him in an argument.  I had also reviewed this person's story.  Todd saw that I had and, for reasons of his own, was inspired to dig a bit into LR.  

Unless I saw the wrong review conflict, in which case I'm just talking out my ass(umptions).