R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 8, 2013 - 6:15pm
Yea, dorky white guy. It would've been funny if Sam Jackson stood and said, 'Shut the fuck up!' Think I might watch Inglorious Basterds tonight.
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsMarch 8, 2013 - 6:17pm
Quentin Tarantino is kinda racist in the exact opposite way that Spike Lee is also kinda racist. Harlan Ellison has some sometimes cartoonish portrayals of race in his stuff, like Tarantino, yet Ellison marched with Dr. Martin Luther King, which is the coolest anti-racist somebody could do.
What story was that now, Moon?Sorry if I don't remember the particulars to that one, but I think the folksy wise character is more of a trope than anything bad, in that tropes are tropes because they do reflect realism in narrative formula, not that they're caricatures. What would that story have turned out like if the real-life source had been guidance from an old white convict? Would that say as much as two characters with superficially different backgrounds coming together under that circumstance?
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 8, 2013 - 6:18pm
Spike Lee's standard for a white man being a racist might be a little low.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 8, 2013 - 6:30pm
The story is called Wisdom to Know the Difference. I think it's still up here. I wrote it as an accurate portrayal of my experience. Honestly, I don't know if the story would've been different if the old man had been white.
Jonathan Riley
from Memphis, Tennessee is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland March 8, 2013 - 6:38pm
It can't be entirely accurate or I'd be talking to a ghost Moon. ;)
I think I'm going to watch True Romance tonight.
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 8, 2013 - 8:09pm
Like every night, after my woman goes to sleep, I'll be watching Terms of Endearment with the sound off and the audio track from Apocalypse Now Redux blaring through headphones till I drift off into a gentle slumber. But, hey, I'm sure every last one of you does the very same thing, right? Right???
Good night, Reactor, hello snails on the edges of razor blades.
Sound
from Azusa, CA is reading Greener Pastures by Michael WehuntMarch 8, 2013 - 8:38pm
Haha, that was painful to watch.
Courtney
from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooksMarch 8, 2013 - 8:43pm
Late comment, but just wanted to note:
I'm the head editor a website with a staff of exclusively white women (not on purpose, just happened that way) that regularly publishes work by Russians (we attract them a lot, for some reason), has a column by Sound (he reached out to me, so he proves that ethnicity doesn't matter in networking -- at least to me) and publishes a lot of work by other minorities.
Also, since when are women a minority? (I mean, I get the social aspect of "minority," but strictly speaking -- we're the majority. And I'm the most flaming feminist there is.)
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigMarch 8, 2013 - 8:48pm
Women are a socially and economically disadvantaged group in the US. They are the minority in publishing, and face marginalization as a group on a regular basis. When a group is more likely to be economically disadvantaged and is represented as well as they are on this site, it's safe to say the site has some socially progressive tendencies, especially when paired with the other minority and marginalized groups present here.
Jonathan Riley
from Memphis, Tennessee is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland March 8, 2013 - 9:18pm
Courtney makes me giggle (like a majority.)
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryMarch 8, 2013 - 9:40pm
when paired with the other minority and marginalized groups present here.
Like the disembodied skull category, yes? Can we get some love over here? Hells yeah.
*starts handing out high-fives like Chick Tracts*
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsMarch 8, 2013 - 10:49pm
watching Terms of Endearment with the sound off
I'm glad I'm not the only one with a great appreciation for James L. Brooks's cinematic composition.
Todd Sullivan
from America is reading Workshop fictionMarch 8, 2013 - 11:05pm
So, I just woke up, and I see that there's a lot of comments. Most of what I wanted to say I've already said, so I'll just address this last point:
It's pretty obvious by your dodgy answers that you have no actual defined goal for this conversation.
My defined "goal" was the conversation itself. When you look at a lot of the other topics here, people began conversations without trying to solve a problem. They begin them to have the topic spoken about. And as you can see, the topic was spoken about.
Goal achieved.
Jonathan Riley
from Memphis, Tennessee is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland March 8, 2013 - 11:21pm
You addressed your concern. There are few minoritys represented by people who admin the sight. You never answered any questions about why that concerns you. Many people here represent many minorities and nationalities. Most of wich will be reviewing your work. Complain all you will. But present a valid argument. And do what Utah said. Don't complain to the members, talk to the administrators.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 8, 2013 - 11:35pm
Or my question, beyond the conversation do you have any suggestions leading towards a more diverse membership and/or staff? If not, why bother complaining?
Courtney
from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooksMarch 8, 2013 - 11:47pm
@Renee That's what I meant by "social" aspect -- I was asking, are women literally a minority? I always grew up thinking we were the majority and learned that it's not a 50/50 chance of having a boy or girl, it's more like a 53/47 chance in favor of women. It was a curiousity, not a challenge.
Todd Sullivan
from America is reading Workshop fictionMarch 9, 2013 - 12:03am
Or my question, beyond the conversation do you have any suggestions leading towards a more diverse membership and/or staff? If not, why bother complaining?
If by membership, you mean the people who pay to join the site, I was never speaking about that. In my above statements, I specifically said the writers linked on the website in the 'Team LitReactor', 'Contributors', and 'Instructors'. And since I don't know these people beyond the pictures on the website, there's not much I can do about who they include and don't include in these three groups.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 9, 2013 - 12:08am
I'll take that as a no, you don't have any suggestions then.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 9, 2013 - 12:49am
I'm confused. If you knew there was nothing you could do about who they do and don't include then what was the whole point of this thread?
Todd Sullivan
from America is reading Workshop fictionMarch 9, 2013 - 1:01am
I'm confused. If you knew there was nothing you could do about who they do and don't include then what was the whole point of this thread?
I don't want this to sound snarky, but the name of the tread is 'Observation About LitReactor', and that's what I did: made an observation. And this is the 'Discussions' aspect of this site, of which there are many (discussions about or pretaining to writing and publishing, among other things. I notice one about Netflix favorites. I could click on it and see how many of you demanding that I have a roadmap to resolve my observation ask about the point of that thread, but I'm betting none of you did).
This part of the site isn't named 'Solutions', it's called 'Discussions'. And anyone who says that all of these many threads here are solutions orientated with stated ways to go out and change whatever the subject is of the thread itself is lying.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 9, 2013 - 1:13am
I'm not saying anything is a solution,I come here because many threads kick up neat ideas. Point being I'm saying solutions are even better than awareness, and if you aren't offering any it seems a waste of time for what (seem to be) your goals.
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsMarch 9, 2013 - 1:17am
Maybe the key there that it's called Discussions, and the original point is just a one-sided opinion that doesn't really merit much actual discussion (other than people being like, really, it's nothing unusual.) I personally don't find the observation that offending or that talking about race should be a touchy subject, but I'd also not want to alienate myself from the workshop I just paid/committed to if I were new, and I hope that doesn't happen here.
Michael.Eric.Snyder
March 9, 2013 - 1:37am
No one is going to question the existence or point of the Netflix favorites thread because it offers no site-specific problem in want of solution. It's kinda just for fun, yo? This is a community, yo?
And you're welcome to sit upon what I believe you perceive as your high horse and sputter on about whatever indignations you do or do not feel you've endured as part of this highbrow topic which you feel you've done Lit Reactor the favor of raising, as a Discussion, and about which you've apparently nothing relevant to add, beyond complaint and stifling, arrogant pretension.
You do realize the highjacking of this thread occurred because you do not have the respect of this community, don't you?
Todd Sullivan
from America is reading Workshop fictionMarch 9, 2013 - 1:45am
I personally don't find the observation that offending or that talking about race should be a touchy subject, but I'd also not want to alienate myself from the workshop I just paid/committed to if I were new, and I hope that doesn't happen here.
I'm pretty sure I'll survive. And like I said, I really didn't come to the website looking to see who existed behind the curtain. Those links I noted are small and at the bottom of the website for a reason, because who really cares for the most part, right? I mean, how often does one really look at the 'About this Site' link?
It's only that after I looked and noticed that I thought to create a thread to see what others thought about it. I'm pretty sure this discussion has don't any irreparable harm to anyone in real life.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 9, 2013 - 5:39am
The name of your thread is: Observation about Lit Reactor. This is true.
This is not an observation. It's an assumption.
I hate to be that person starting a conversation like this, but being a person of colour where a lot of people of different races and backgrounds tend to populate my fiction, it does worry me a bit when I submit fiction and the idea that many of the people judging the work are not only not in any way representative by those I often represent, but also seem to be surrounded by those that don't have a more intimate understanding of different races/ethnicities/cultures.
Nor is this an observation.
But I am saying that it seems that they stuck to a certain comfort level throughout the development of the site and their writing careers. Because I find it hard swallowing the idea that more people of colour haven't been there to offer good insights into the world of writing.
Another assumption:
When I look at the faces behind the scene of LitReactor, what I see is a lot of writers of colour who don't have this opportunity of networking. Is LitReactor the apex, or the terminal point, of publishing? No. But to deny it would be helpful to be part of the Team, the Contributors, or the Instructors is disingenuous. It is helpful on a professional level.
Accusing the people behind the scenes of being close minded:
There's something telling in the fact that in the development of the site, it's "face" came to be as it is today. Now, many of the people behind the scenes may claim open-mindedness, but actions speak louder than words, and as I stated before, I'll state again, it's odd how, in the course of the years of this site's evolution, the people behind the curtain numbering 25 to 40 or 50, are almost all white. This begs the question of how open minded were they really?
This implies that you were, in fact, trying to solve a problem:
When you look at a lot of the other topics here, people began conversations without trying to solve a problem.
This is a direct contradiction of the above statement:
This part of the site isn't named 'Solutions', it's called 'Discussions'. And anyone who says that all of these many threads here are solutions orientated with stated ways to go out and change whatever the subject is of the thread itself is lying.
I really didn't come to the website looking to see who existed behind the curtain. Those links I noted are small and at the bottom of the website for a reason, because who really cares for the most part, right? I mean, how often does one really look at the 'About this Site' link?
- Obviously you care.
It's only that after I looked and noticed that I thought to create a thread to see what others thought about it.
- Asking what other members thought about it is one thing. Accusing staff of being close minded and assuming the members don't have an intimate enough understanding of race, ethniticities and cultures based on a few pictures is a whole different thing.
Maybe the appropriate title of the thread should have been: Assumptions about Lit Reactor, accusations of the founders and hoping to have a problem solved, but not really.
Cath Murphy
from UK is reading Find out on the Unpr!ntable podcastMarch 9, 2013 - 5:50am
There's nothing wrong with observations. Or discussions. But my reaction to your post @Todd was to feel that you were not offering a neutral observation. It was to feel that you were delivering a judgement.
What I mean is, you're not directly calling LitReactor racist, but you're making an observation which implies it: 'say guys - look! LitReactor doesn't have any black people on its staff! What do you make of *that*?'
Well, what can we make of it other than LitReactor has, in some way, failed to do the right thing, when it comes to race?
Now, I come across sites all the time which have very few women on their writing roster. I'm not interested in seeing every gender imbalance as the patriarchy's plot to chain women to the kitchen sink, so most of the time I do nothing about this other than note it. But if for some reason I felt that site really needed some female input, because it was poorer for the lack of it, then this is what I would do:
I would send them an email asking if they needed any contributors.
Here is what I would *not* do: join the community and put up a post 'observing' the imbalance.
The first way of proceeding will get results much, much faster than the second.
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 9, 2013 - 6:11am
Cath, great input and you're the first to offer up constructive steps to solve the prolbem that still seems to me not an actual problem here, but for you to make a comment to such a site as one that doesn't have enough women on it, in the same fashion as Todd has here with race, then when you made an issue of gender inequality, you'd also have to be a man while doing it.
I say this because being a man who points out there aren't enough women is just like a white person pointing out there are way too many whites.* The fact that you're a woman automatically lends your claims more credibility when you point out concerns of gender representation than if you were a man. It means more. Just as it would mean more if a non-white guy decried the absense of other non-whites.
*This is my own racial assumption based on the fact that I have never met a black, Asian, Latino, or Native American named Todd Sullivan.
Todd Sullivan
from America is reading Workshop fictionMarch 9, 2013 - 6:28am
What I mean is, you're not directly calling LitReactor racist, but you're making an observation which implies it: 'say guys - look! LitReactor doesn't have any black people on its staff! What do you make of *that*?'
For the number of people linked on the site, it's a somewhat bigger gulf than no black people. I think we established an Indian(?) person, Native American person, and I think someone said Peurvian person.
What's been made clear, however, is that no one, who responded at least, finds this problematic. We can keep going round and round in circles, but I think the core of the thread has been established.
Devon Robbins
from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham JonesMarch 9, 2013 - 6:48am
No one finds this problematic, because it isn't problematic.
Maybe you could open my eyes to the problems this poses.
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 9, 2013 - 7:04am
Dude, you'd think someone so supremely culturally sensitive would know to honor a different ethnicity by spelling its name right. Sure, typos are easy to point out because they're just the result of someone not taking the time and effort to ensure correct spelling, but that in itself denotes a lack of genuine concern if one is not willing to even spend the five seconds necessary to proofread a comment about people being concerned or not.
Just a thought.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 9, 2013 - 7:43am
Todd, the only person who is going around in circles is you. You seem to be the only one with a problem with it. On this very page you claimed you were simply making an observation that has no solutions, but now it's problematic again which, yet again, implies you want a solution that you're unwilling to work towards yourself. Cath gave you a solution which is what we were trying to do without having to spoon feed it to you. Are you trying to solve a problem or make an observation? Pick one.
iamsnaggletooth
March 9, 2013 - 8:34am
I watched that Tarantino thing and laughed my butt off.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 9, 2013 - 8:39am
^ Yeah, it's funny, but still painful to watch. Sam Jackson's face is priceless.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 9, 2013 - 9:11am
Todd it is less then ideal, yes. The point I'm getting at (and those of who like points are getting at) is that with what we feel is a fairly diverse group it isn't that bad and unless someone brings it up the whole thing can be summed up with "It is unfortunate that as of now there isn't a black person on staff regularly, but no one has any plan to deal with it," isn't really much of a discussion.
Cath Murphy
from UK is reading Find out on the Unpr!ntable podcastMarch 9, 2013 - 9:38am
@Todd - I get the sense that when you say 'no one finds this problematic' the response you are looking for is us all hanging our heads in shame and admitting we are big fat racists. Again, your post is not the answer. If you have identified an area you think needs improvement, go ahead and suggest ways to achieve that.
PS I checked the contributors page - some of us are white, some of us aren't and at least one of us is a chicken.
Devon Robbins
from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham JonesMarch 9, 2013 - 10:02am
I think that everyone could care less about the whole ethnic diversity thing. This is a writing community. The thing that matters is that there is diversity in the mindset of the contributors. There is a lot of knowledge thrown around from a lot of different angles. That is what matters.
This whole thing has turned into a huge bummer.
Todd Sullivan
from America is reading Workshop fictionMarch 9, 2013 - 10:40am
"It is unfortunate that as of now there isn't a black person on staff regularly, but no one has any plan to deal with it," isn't really much of a discussion.
In a way, this kind of feeds into my concern. I've noticed others specifically mention the lack of a black face in the three areas linked to the site. However, as we all know, America is a melting pot, so why mention only the lack of a black person? What about a Mexican person, or a Puerto Rican person, or a Chinese person, or a Japanese person, or an Iranian person, or a Jordanian person, or a person from the Caribbean. Aren't they notably absent also?
Look, I get the general distaste expressed here for my thread, and I cannot say I'm surprised. But the bottom line is that this:
The thing that matters is that there is diversity in the mindset of the contributors.
This just isn't going to really be the case as it would be if the makeup of 25 to 50 writers...I mean, this is really not small a number of writers. And as writers, one would think that the importance of different POVs would be almost sacred to the narrative, both on the page and in real life, that can be woven. But when I look at the three links noted, and see that of all those people, the diversity of them is rather limited, then I take note.
Do those people listed have their own important stories to tell? Sure. But are the many, many other voices from different backgrounds and races and ethnicities populating America lost on the site? Yes, because ultimately, a Mexican person is going to tell a more rich, varied story about his/her own culture than a non-Mexican person. Same goes for a Japanese person, a Chinese person, a Venezuelan person, an Iranian person, etc.
So yes, I suppose we can say it's less than ideal. But I believe this less than ideal situation creates misperceptions such as this:
Todd: How does a site which links to 25 to 50 authors on their main page have only, I suppose, two or three of colour?
Response: - This could be due to the fact that the majority of us here read and write the same types of stories. There's a common bond between transgressive, sci-fi, noir and literary.
I don't want to call the person out, but this is just incorrect. And if the cast of this crew were more diverse, I simply don't think that something like this would be thought.
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 9, 2013 - 10:48am
*facepalm*
Ok, Todd, then I nominate you to spearhead the first ever LitReactor Non-Cracker Talent Search. Since only whites - according to you - seem capable of stumbling their way to this site and becoming associated with it, then perhaps, like Moses, you can lead your people out of the desert and into the promised land that is the Reactor. But, of course, I might have to amend that statement, since your people are whites.
I'm being only semi-sarcastic here, since I eagerly await the moment when you take an active role in solving this problem that seems to perplex you so greatly.
Jonathan Riley
from Memphis, Tennessee is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland March 9, 2013 - 11:10am
Todd,
Why are you limiting our community to the people on those three links? I get that the contributers and instructors may concern you. Why don't you make a list of minority writers that you would like see instruct here. There is an instructors thread and Rob has asked the community to voice there oppinion on who he should reach out to and ask to teach classes.
As far as the collumnists go, I'm not sure how many minorities applied for possitions. It is a fairly new site. I serioiusly doubt the powers that be just decided to only employ white people, turning down all people of color who applied.
But as far as the workshop is concerned, which is the most prominet feature of this site for paying members, Those three groups you keep refering to have very little participation in there. I believe it to be very diverse.
But I suppose people from England, Ireland, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Scottland, Italy, South Africa, don't add culture because they are all white? Nonsense.
One of my favorite writers and reviewers (a paying member of this site, like the majority of us here) is Mathew Allen Garcia, a non-white person. Many woman (minorities for equal opportunity in this country as well) are a huge factor in the workshop.
So I don't find it odd at all or a problem at all. I see plenty of diversity in the workshop and that is where it matters the most.
wavedomer
from Boise is reading Rum PunchMarch 9, 2013 - 11:12am
I would find it problematic if LitReactor purposefully kept people from becoming key contributors because of their backgrounds etc. That's problematic. That's also not happening. I think I'm pretty safe assuming that. Other than saying that, I'll take the high road.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 9, 2013 - 11:31am
Ugh... This is just ridiculous. Don't like something, fucking do something about it and quit pissing and moaning to people who can't do anything about it. To quote someone else. "It's like talking to an echo."
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 9, 2013 - 12:49pm
We all get it, you think we are some mix of insensitive and/or bigoted that varies by person. Your evidence of this is what you consider a lack of diversity in various forms of staff.
For the number of people linked on the site, it's a somewhat bigger gulf than no black people.
Because the race you brought up was black people.
What about a Mexican person, or a Puerto Rican person, or a Chinese person, or a Japanese person, or an Iranian person, or a Jordanian person, or a person from the Caribbean. Aren't they notably absent also?
No reason to think a Mexican, Chinese, Japanese, Iranian, Venezuelan, or Jordanian person would be common on an English speaking site. Puerto Ricans are some what more likely, but would often be writing in Spanish.
Again, even if you are right about everything, and we are all some mix of insensitive and/or bigoted, what can be done about it? You seem upset that the racial group who is he majority of English language writers make up the majority of the writers on an English language writing site. Wouldn't math lead you to expect that?
Devon Robbins
from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham JonesMarch 9, 2013 - 1:36pm
It's not like the team set out to alienate people because of their race. Really, this site has three core functions: Forum, Workshop, and Classes.
I don't want to be that guy, but if this arbitrary situation haunts you so deeply, why would you want to be here?
Not saying that you should bail by any means. Just a question. This thread seems to be sparking a lot of negativity. And nobody needs that.
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 9, 2013 - 1:48pm
Just speaking for myself, the only negative issue I have, beyond the whole assumtion of a problem without sincere desire to find a solution, is this unexpressed yet still obvious notion in Todd's 'observation' that these minorities he's so concerned about are somehow incapable of making known their feelings of marginalization - and thus require their great white hope to shake his fist at the heavens on their behalf.
Again, just speaking for myself, I find this attitude far more racist and based on prejudicial assumptions than the issues he claims to have.
I know that comes off really negative, but this type of thing is just a hot button of mine.
Devon Robbins
from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham JonesMarch 9, 2013 - 1:57pm
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 9, 2013 - 1:59pm
The control freak part of me hates how true that is, Devon.
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryMarch 9, 2013 - 2:15pm
Okay. Let's all take a step back here for a moment. Breathe deep. Drop the argumentation part of this for a moment, because right now it's essentially taken us to the end of rational conversation and the thread has deteriorated into a bunch of people being hostile to the ideas of one person. Go back a few steps.
Cool, Todd. Let's consider that you have a point and that your point is valid. A bit overgeneralized at the outset, but let's take the leap. You have a supporter (albeit a hypothetical one). Maybe you'll have more.
Now what?
And all the rest of you give him some space.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 9, 2013 - 2:39pm
This in no way represents how I feel. I saw 'hostile' in Utah's post and this is what I thought of.
Okay, carry on...
Devon Robbins
from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham JonesMarch 9, 2013 - 3:05pm
Dimebags?
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 9, 2013 - 3:14pm
See, I never did understand the whole screamo mentality when one gets angry. For me, when I'm really getting hostile with someone, I get very quiet. The whole 'let's crank up the angry music when we're angry' thing never really worked for me. In fact, I like to listen to really aggressive tunes and angry lyrics to calm down, but hey, I'm special.
The fist in the face visual is awesome though. I love how skin seems to wrap around a powerful impending force, like syrup closing in around something moving through it.
Yea, dorky white guy. It would've been funny if Sam Jackson stood and said, 'Shut the fuck up!' Think I might watch Inglorious Basterds tonight.
Quentin Tarantino is kinda racist in the exact opposite way that Spike Lee is also kinda racist. Harlan Ellison has some sometimes cartoonish portrayals of race in his stuff, like Tarantino, yet Ellison marched with Dr. Martin Luther King, which is the coolest anti-racist somebody could do.
What story was that now, Moon?Sorry if I don't remember the particulars to that one, but I think the folksy wise character is more of a trope than anything bad, in that tropes are tropes because they do reflect realism in narrative formula, not that they're caricatures. What would that story have turned out like if the real-life source had been guidance from an old white convict? Would that say as much as two characters with superficially different backgrounds coming together under that circumstance?
Spike Lee's standard for a white man being a racist might be a little low.
The story is called Wisdom to Know the Difference. I think it's still up here. I wrote it as an accurate portrayal of my experience. Honestly, I don't know if the story would've been different if the old man had been white.
It can't be entirely accurate or I'd be talking to a ghost Moon. ;)
I think I'm going to watch True Romance tonight.
Like every night, after my woman goes to sleep, I'll be watching Terms of Endearment with the sound off and the audio track from Apocalypse Now Redux blaring through headphones till I drift off into a gentle slumber. But, hey, I'm sure every last one of you does the very same thing, right? Right???
Good night, Reactor, hello snails on the edges of razor blades.
Haha, that was painful to watch.
Late comment, but just wanted to note:
I'm the head editor a website with a staff of exclusively white women (not on purpose, just happened that way) that regularly publishes work by Russians (we attract them a lot, for some reason), has a column by Sound (he reached out to me, so he proves that ethnicity doesn't matter in networking -- at least to me) and publishes a lot of work by other minorities.
Also, since when are women a minority? (I mean, I get the social aspect of "minority," but strictly speaking -- we're the majority. And I'm the most flaming feminist there is.)
Women are a socially and economically disadvantaged group in the US. They are the minority in publishing, and face marginalization as a group on a regular basis. When a group is more likely to be economically disadvantaged and is represented as well as they are on this site, it's safe to say the site has some socially progressive tendencies, especially when paired with the other minority and marginalized groups present here.
Courtney makes me giggle (like a majority.)
Like the disembodied skull category, yes? Can we get some love over here? Hells yeah.
*starts handing out high-fives like Chick Tracts*
I'm glad I'm not the only one with a great appreciation for James L. Brooks's cinematic composition.
So, I just woke up, and I see that there's a lot of comments. Most of what I wanted to say I've already said, so I'll just address this last point:
My defined "goal" was the conversation itself. When you look at a lot of the other topics here, people began conversations without trying to solve a problem. They begin them to have the topic spoken about. And as you can see, the topic was spoken about.
Goal achieved.
You addressed your concern. There are few minoritys represented by people who admin the sight. You never answered any questions about why that concerns you. Many people here represent many minorities and nationalities. Most of wich will be reviewing your work. Complain all you will. But present a valid argument. And do what Utah said. Don't complain to the members, talk to the administrators.
Or my question, beyond the conversation do you have any suggestions leading towards a more diverse membership and/or staff? If not, why bother complaining?
@Renee That's what I meant by "social" aspect -- I was asking, are women literally a minority? I always grew up thinking we were the majority and learned that it's not a 50/50 chance of having a boy or girl, it's more like a 53/47 chance in favor of women. It was a curiousity, not a challenge.
If by membership, you mean the people who pay to join the site, I was never speaking about that. In my above statements, I specifically said the writers linked on the website in the 'Team LitReactor', 'Contributors', and 'Instructors'. And since I don't know these people beyond the pictures on the website, there's not much I can do about who they include and don't include in these three groups.
I'll take that as a no, you don't have any suggestions then.
I'm confused. If you knew there was nothing you could do about who they do and don't include then what was the whole point of this thread?
I don't want this to sound snarky, but the name of the tread is 'Observation About LitReactor', and that's what I did: made an observation. And this is the 'Discussions' aspect of this site, of which there are many (discussions about or pretaining to writing and publishing, among other things. I notice one about Netflix favorites. I could click on it and see how many of you demanding that I have a roadmap to resolve my observation ask about the point of that thread, but I'm betting none of you did).
This part of the site isn't named 'Solutions', it's called 'Discussions'. And anyone who says that all of these many threads here are solutions orientated with stated ways to go out and change whatever the subject is of the thread itself is lying.
I'm not saying anything is a solution,I come here because many threads kick up neat ideas. Point being I'm saying solutions are even better than awareness, and if you aren't offering any it seems a waste of time for what (seem to be) your goals.
Maybe the key there that it's called Discussions, and the original point is just a one-sided opinion that doesn't really merit much actual discussion (other than people being like, really, it's nothing unusual.) I personally don't find the observation that offending or that talking about race should be a touchy subject, but I'd also not want to alienate myself from the workshop I just paid/committed to if I were new, and I hope that doesn't happen here.
No one is going to question the existence or point of the Netflix favorites thread because it offers no site-specific problem in want of solution. It's kinda just for fun, yo? This is a community, yo?
And you're welcome to sit upon what I believe you perceive as your high horse and sputter on about whatever indignations you do or do not feel you've endured as part of this highbrow topic which you feel you've done Lit Reactor the favor of raising, as a Discussion, and about which you've apparently nothing relevant to add, beyond complaint and stifling, arrogant pretension.
You do realize the highjacking of this thread occurred because you do not have the respect of this community, don't you?
I'm pretty sure I'll survive. And like I said, I really didn't come to the website looking to see who existed behind the curtain. Those links I noted are small and at the bottom of the website for a reason, because who really cares for the most part, right? I mean, how often does one really look at the 'About this Site' link?
It's only that after I looked and noticed that I thought to create a thread to see what others thought about it. I'm pretty sure this discussion has don't any irreparable harm to anyone in real life.
The name of your thread is: Observation about Lit Reactor. This is true.
This is not an observation. It's an assumption.
Nor is this an observation.
Another assumption:
Accusing the people behind the scenes of being close minded:
This implies that you were, in fact, trying to solve a problem:
This is a direct contradiction of the above statement:
Maybe the appropriate title of the thread should have been: Assumptions about Lit Reactor, accusations of the founders and hoping to have a problem solved, but not really.
There's nothing wrong with observations. Or discussions. But my reaction to your post @Todd was to feel that you were not offering a neutral observation. It was to feel that you were delivering a judgement.
What I mean is, you're not directly calling LitReactor racist, but you're making an observation which implies it: 'say guys - look! LitReactor doesn't have any black people on its staff! What do you make of *that*?'
Well, what can we make of it other than LitReactor has, in some way, failed to do the right thing, when it comes to race?
Now, I come across sites all the time which have very few women on their writing roster. I'm not interested in seeing every gender imbalance as the patriarchy's plot to chain women to the kitchen sink, so most of the time I do nothing about this other than note it. But if for some reason I felt that site really needed some female input, because it was poorer for the lack of it, then this is what I would do:
I would send them an email asking if they needed any contributors.
Here is what I would *not* do: join the community and put up a post 'observing' the imbalance.
The first way of proceeding will get results much, much faster than the second.
Cath, great input and you're the first to offer up constructive steps to solve the prolbem that still seems to me not an actual problem here, but for you to make a comment to such a site as one that doesn't have enough women on it, in the same fashion as Todd has here with race, then when you made an issue of gender inequality, you'd also have to be a man while doing it.
I say this because being a man who points out there aren't enough women is just like a white person pointing out there are way too many whites.* The fact that you're a woman automatically lends your claims more credibility when you point out concerns of gender representation than if you were a man. It means more. Just as it would mean more if a non-white guy decried the absense of other non-whites.
*This is my own racial assumption based on the fact that I have never met a black, Asian, Latino, or Native American named Todd Sullivan.
For the number of people linked on the site, it's a somewhat bigger gulf than no black people. I think we established an Indian(?) person, Native American person, and I think someone said Peurvian person.
What's been made clear, however, is that no one, who responded at least, finds this problematic. We can keep going round and round in circles, but I think the core of the thread has been established.
No one finds this problematic, because it isn't problematic.
Maybe you could open my eyes to the problems this poses.
Dude, you'd think someone so supremely culturally sensitive would know to honor a different ethnicity by spelling its name right. Sure, typos are easy to point out because they're just the result of someone not taking the time and effort to ensure correct spelling, but that in itself denotes a lack of genuine concern if one is not willing to even spend the five seconds necessary to proofread a comment about people being concerned or not.
Just a thought.
Todd, the only person who is going around in circles is you. You seem to be the only one with a problem with it. On this very page you claimed you were simply making an observation that has no solutions, but now it's problematic again which, yet again, implies you want a solution that you're unwilling to work towards yourself. Cath gave you a solution which is what we were trying to do without having to spoon feed it to you. Are you trying to solve a problem or make an observation? Pick one.
I watched that Tarantino thing and laughed my butt off.
^ Yeah, it's funny, but still painful to watch. Sam Jackson's face is priceless.
Todd it is less then ideal, yes. The point I'm getting at (and those of who like points are getting at) is that with what we feel is a fairly diverse group it isn't that bad and unless someone brings it up the whole thing can be summed up with "It is unfortunate that as of now there isn't a black person on staff regularly, but no one has any plan to deal with it," isn't really much of a discussion.
@Todd - I get the sense that when you say 'no one finds this problematic' the response you are looking for is us all hanging our heads in shame and admitting we are big fat racists. Again, your post is not the answer. If you have identified an area you think needs improvement, go ahead and suggest ways to achieve that.
PS I checked the contributors page - some of us are white, some of us aren't and at least one of us is a chicken.
I think that everyone could care less about the whole ethnic diversity thing. This is a writing community. The thing that matters is that there is diversity in the mindset of the contributors. There is a lot of knowledge thrown around from a lot of different angles. That is what matters.
This whole thing has turned into a huge bummer.
In a way, this kind of feeds into my concern. I've noticed others specifically mention the lack of a black face in the three areas linked to the site. However, as we all know, America is a melting pot, so why mention only the lack of a black person? What about a Mexican person, or a Puerto Rican person, or a Chinese person, or a Japanese person, or an Iranian person, or a Jordanian person, or a person from the Caribbean. Aren't they notably absent also?
Look, I get the general distaste expressed here for my thread, and I cannot say I'm surprised. But the bottom line is that this:
This just isn't going to really be the case as it would be if the makeup of 25 to 50 writers...I mean, this is really not small a number of writers. And as writers, one would think that the importance of different POVs would be almost sacred to the narrative, both on the page and in real life, that can be woven. But when I look at the three links noted, and see that of all those people, the diversity of them is rather limited, then I take note.
Do those people listed have their own important stories to tell? Sure. But are the many, many other voices from different backgrounds and races and ethnicities populating America lost on the site? Yes, because ultimately, a Mexican person is going to tell a more rich, varied story about his/her own culture than a non-Mexican person. Same goes for a Japanese person, a Chinese person, a Venezuelan person, an Iranian person, etc.
So yes, I suppose we can say it's less than ideal. But I believe this less than ideal situation creates misperceptions such as this:
I don't want to call the person out, but this is just incorrect. And if the cast of this crew were more diverse, I simply don't think that something like this would be thought.
*facepalm*
Ok, Todd, then I nominate you to spearhead the first ever LitReactor Non-Cracker Talent Search. Since only whites - according to you - seem capable of stumbling their way to this site and becoming associated with it, then perhaps, like Moses, you can lead your people out of the desert and into the promised land that is the Reactor. But, of course, I might have to amend that statement, since your people are whites.
I'm being only semi-sarcastic here, since I eagerly await the moment when you take an active role in solving this problem that seems to perplex you so greatly.
Todd,
Why are you limiting our community to the people on those three links? I get that the contributers and instructors may concern you. Why don't you make a list of minority writers that you would like see instruct here. There is an instructors thread and Rob has asked the community to voice there oppinion on who he should reach out to and ask to teach classes.
As far as the collumnists go, I'm not sure how many minorities applied for possitions. It is a fairly new site. I serioiusly doubt the powers that be just decided to only employ white people, turning down all people of color who applied.
But as far as the workshop is concerned, which is the most prominet feature of this site for paying members, Those three groups you keep refering to have very little participation in there. I believe it to be very diverse.
But I suppose people from England, Ireland, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Scottland, Italy, South Africa, don't add culture because they are all white? Nonsense.
One of my favorite writers and reviewers (a paying member of this site, like the majority of us here) is Mathew Allen Garcia, a non-white person. Many woman (minorities for equal opportunity in this country as well) are a huge factor in the workshop.
So I don't find it odd at all or a problem at all. I see plenty of diversity in the workshop and that is where it matters the most.
I would find it problematic if LitReactor purposefully kept people from becoming key contributors because of their backgrounds etc. That's problematic. That's also not happening. I think I'm pretty safe assuming that. Other than saying that, I'll take the high road.
Ugh... This is just ridiculous. Don't like something, fucking do something about it and quit pissing and moaning to people who can't do anything about it. To quote someone else. "It's like talking to an echo."
We all get it, you think we are some mix of insensitive and/or bigoted that varies by person. Your evidence of this is what you consider a lack of diversity in various forms of staff.
Because the race you brought up was black people.
No reason to think a Mexican, Chinese, Japanese, Iranian, Venezuelan, or Jordanian person would be common on an English speaking site. Puerto Ricans are some what more likely, but would often be writing in Spanish.
Again, even if you are right about everything, and we are all some mix of insensitive and/or bigoted, what can be done about it? You seem upset that the racial group who is he majority of English language writers make up the majority of the writers on an English language writing site. Wouldn't math lead you to expect that?
It's not like the team set out to alienate people because of their race. Really, this site has three core functions: Forum, Workshop, and Classes.
I don't want to be that guy, but if this arbitrary situation haunts you so deeply, why would you want to be here?
Not saying that you should bail by any means. Just a question. This thread seems to be sparking a lot of negativity. And nobody needs that.
Just speaking for myself, the only negative issue I have, beyond the whole assumtion of a problem without sincere desire to find a solution, is this unexpressed yet still obvious notion in Todd's 'observation' that these minorities he's so concerned about are somehow incapable of making known their feelings of marginalization - and thus require their great white hope to shake his fist at the heavens on their behalf.
Again, just speaking for myself, I find this attitude far more racist and based on prejudicial assumptions than the issues he claims to have.
I know that comes off really negative, but this type of thing is just a hot button of mine.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
The control freak part of me hates how true that is, Devon.
Okay. Let's all take a step back here for a moment. Breathe deep. Drop the argumentation part of this for a moment, because right now it's essentially taken us to the end of rational conversation and the thread has deteriorated into a bunch of people being hostile to the ideas of one person. Go back a few steps.
Cool, Todd. Let's consider that you have a point and that your point is valid. A bit overgeneralized at the outset, but let's take the leap. You have a supporter (albeit a hypothetical one). Maybe you'll have more.
Now what?
And all the rest of you give him some space.
This in no way represents how I feel. I saw 'hostile' in Utah's post and this is what I thought of.
Okay, carry on...
Dimebags?
See, I never did understand the whole screamo mentality when one gets angry. For me, when I'm really getting hostile with someone, I get very quiet. The whole 'let's crank up the angry music when we're angry' thing never really worked for me. In fact, I like to listen to really aggressive tunes and angry lyrics to calm down, but hey, I'm special.
The fist in the face visual is awesome though. I love how skin seems to wrap around a powerful impending force, like syrup closing in around something moving through it.
What were we talking about now?