Liana
from Romania and Texas is reading Naked LunchNovember 15, 2011 - 9:44am
My two cents (in fact twenty, with the inflation):
(and I have spoilers too)
The dynamic pace of the story is what I like the most about it - dialogue is fast, narration never slows it down, so it reads like a movie, almost (I can picture it on a screen). I like the surreal aspect of the whirlwind of events, when they start unfolding and gratefully they move farther and farther away from a relationship that is quite cheesy, or rather too good to be true, or so it seemed to me (I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, and then it dropped like a bomb). There were hints that Damon and Mary would never have that wedding and house and model-yet-sucky life they see in other couples, because who would want to see two cool characters become what would rob the real romance out of their life? That's why I think the ending is perfect. It reminds me of what I liked about the movie House of Flying Daggers - maybe even other elements remind me of that. Oh how could I forget to mention this in the foreign movie thread... one of my favorite love stories of all time! So that's one part I loved about the book too - that love-death connection, a suspicion that only in death love can become sublime, so I can understand why a writer would be tempted to save them from a life of mortgages and bills, etc.
What I question is the usefulness of all the pop culture references, I mean the usefulness in the long run. It's very enjoyable now, to us contemporary readers (or those who have lived through a few different decades) to see all those references make the novel alive, real to us. But how will someone read this book 100 years from now? Much of that local color of these last decades would be hard for them to make sense of unless they study on purpose what pop culture was like at this time. Of course I may be off with my concern - if everyone wrote thinking how the book will be read in 100 years, what would that do to writing? It's just that since there are so many such references, I'd think someone unfamiliar with them would become frustrated.
I like the clever turn of phrase - sometimes I'm amazed of a sentence he comes up with, like this one:
"...it occurs to me how much time the two of us have spent on couches--or the space where a couch used to be--sorting through the debris when our lives implode and someone dies or somebody leaves or you wish that one of them would just shut up, and it makes me want to turn Japanese and just sit on the floor cushions to head off disaster before it finds my new address." -- that's part of the intrigue of the book: there is a sense that something is coming and he can't stop it, so you want to find out what it is.
He also is good at adding emotional tension to a scene:
"Two hundred million synapses in the brain, all firing at the same time, and mine couldn't make a single decision. Legs tingled that tingle, like life was being sucked from the bottom of my feet."
So it was a fun read.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakNovember 15, 2011 - 9:54am
I love the ol' pop culture debate and how some industry folk are complete hardasses about staying away from that.
Here's my two cents on that:
American Psycho in 1991 - contemporary thriller/satire
American Psycho present day - a time capsule of the 80's and the yuppie lifestyle
I site this book because it's brimming with pop culture (movies, music, fashion, etc.), so the question here is: if pop culture dates a book (and we're assuming this is a bad thing, right?) then why does AP still work so well?
Jay.SJ
from London is reading Warmed and BoundNovember 15, 2011 - 1:22pm
Brandon: AP was released before I was born, yeti ts still one of my most loved novels. Aside from good writing, perhaps it's that the themes of: satire, alienation, disgust and hate (and all the other ones) are universal and that the popculture references are just ways they are conveyed rather than having to know them specifically.
Liana
from Romania and Texas is reading Naked LunchNovember 15, 2011 - 8:58pm
I guess I'm just concerned about what is done with those references: if they are just there, I think it's better to have less than more, but if they create some kind of atmosphere, add to the social commentary, maybe even have some descriptives attached, etc, then of course they would work well as a time capsule. There's a story "Sonny's Blues" by James Baldwin and there is a long passage describing the sound of a certain type of jazz music that really makes you feel as if you actually heard it. But given that Stay God is a dynamic narrative, I can see how that would interfere with the pacing, so it was a good idea not to linger on too many of the specifics of those references.
EdVaughn
from Louisville, Ky is reading a whole bunch of different stuffNovember 15, 2011 - 6:55pm
I really enjoyed this book. It was the kind of book that I like to read and the kind of stuff I try to write myself. I thought Damon was relatable. I remember having very similar conversations with friends that Damon had with his friends, the same kind of arguements with girlfriends. The narrative voice was spot-on and I found myself immersed in Korpon's Baltimore. The only complaint that I would have is that the story was a little slow at times but didn't make me want to stop reading or anything. He did a good job at showing Damon's paranoia. I wasn't too sure if Hobbs really was out to get him or not at times. Judging from Korpon's other online work I can tell he has become an even better writer since this book. I'll definantly be following his career here on out.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakNovember 15, 2011 - 7:04pm
Let me just say (officially) that I really enjoyed Korpon's book. Thought I should throw that in there since I basically talked up American Psycho in the Stay God thread.
We're on the same label, so I'm going to leave the discussion up to you guys as to avoid any sort of nepotism, but I at least wanted to chime in that much.
Charles
from Portland is reading Mongrels by Stephen Graham JonesNovember 16, 2011 - 12:04am
liana
i questioned those for a while too (it merits noting that i hate that in writing, because i feel it dates unnecessarily) but then, it's also hard to avoid entirely. the conclusion i kept coming back to, no... i keep coming back to even writing this... is that some people are defined by pop culture. there are comic nerds, star wars freaks, trekkies, and people who jack off to the stratacaster. as a writer it is sometimes our responsibility to honor that in people through our characters. it would be false to pretend that those people don't exist. i think [personally] the author's decision to make the narrator and the main character fall into this category is a pretty bold one. a lot of readers would be tempted to stop reading, some probably would stop. but, at the same time there is something to be said for encapsulating a time and a place, down to the nerdery and the hipster bands and the pop-culture prescription drugs of that time and place. classic authors are praised for this, and contemporaries are faulted for it. it's a hypocrisy, if you ask me.
but at the same time, im also in no way advocating that everyone start name dropping and talking about spiderman vs wolverine, or anything like that...
Flaminia Ferina
from Umbria is reading stuffNovember 16, 2011 - 8:51am
The pop culture references added to the relatability of characters in a very effective way, imo. There is a fair percentage of movie freaks in my area, involved in drug movements or not, and I can testify that their lives revolve a great deal around cinematic trivia.
The use of movie posters and themed furniture as downplay devices during Damon's crises - like he relied on those objects as pieces of reality, handholds to cling to when everything around was swirling - has given the narration a paradoxical flavor that makes the setting resemble so much our freaky times.
This generation has been fed tv shows, ads, movies, soap operas, music, celebrities - in a word, Entertainment - right from the cradle. Entertainment is our reality, so is pop culture.
Damon has no family of his own. He looked at those posters like they were his father, sometimes. Movies are his family, his certainties, together with Mary and Christian.
.
November 16, 2011 - 9:26am
I agree that this was a good move in the writing. Not only does it keep the reader engaged but let's remember "The Great Gatsby." Fitzgerald used references to that time period to the skin of his teeth. In my opinion, it works. Why wouldn't it? Saying references dates a book is just subjective anyway.
Chester Pane
from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot DiazNovember 17, 2011 - 9:15am
Chuck brought up an excellent point about this "Pop Culture" element that yarns through Stay Gold, Say God, Stay God. Classical writers, more precisely, Historical Fiction writers, are praised for this scrutiny of detail while contemporary writers (contemporary becoming more and more obsolete like 'modern') are admonished for incorporating it.
Considering that society has more recently embraced the phenomenon of "Pop," indeed Pop is probably enjoying its heyday as we speak, then books like AP and others will probably be mined by future reading generations just for this reason. Ironic.
I loved all of the Cameo's. Richard Thomas....Caleb....
Liana
from Romania and Texas is reading Naked LunchNovember 17, 2011 - 9:32am
Well I agree - there's nothing wrong with pop culture in a novel (in fact I think it's great). That's not what I meant. I was just wandering, for example, if a band name is enough to evoke the atmosphere of that type of music for those who are not familiar with the band. But maybe this is too nitpicky from my part. What would you do, how would you use it? Just a general question, wondering what the best approach would be.
Flaminia Ferina
from Umbria is reading stuffNovember 17, 2011 - 10:22am
I think that the best approach is to describe what you see, or what you think you see, or whatever idea, for whatever reason, you associate with what you're writing about in a certain moment. It may sound simplistic and maybe it just is, so what? Your peculiar vision, your own perception, will be what makes your narration unique. We are not isolated beings and I find it extra cool that we are discussing about these details now, 'cause it's all about communication.
For example: it made absolutely sense for me that the Notorius Cd was the coke one, while Depeche Mode were chosen for H. It will be surely not so immediate in 2055, when peeps will read Stay God and won't appreciate that particular nuance. Some people will though, and those will be the lucky ones who get the extra pleasure.
Some people read Euripides nowadays and can imagine tibias playing in the background. They enjoy a supplemental epiphany.
Pete
from Detroit is reading Red DragonNovember 18, 2011 - 12:07pm
I don't know if this has been posted here yet, but whatever I'll post it again.
If you're enjoying Stay God, today only you can download Nik's novella - By the Nails of the Warpriest - for free!
No catch. Just go to the link and download it for free.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakNovember 18, 2011 - 12:07pm
It was front page news, sir.
Pete
from Detroit is reading Red DragonNovember 18, 2011 - 12:08pm
ef that! I rarely check the front page. I have the forum book marked. So it can be reposted here too! haha
Charles
from Portland is reading Mongrels by Stephen Graham JonesNovember 18, 2011 - 1:56pm
im with pete.
i rarely check the magazine section or the front page unless i see something interesting there on facebook or something
Chester Pane
from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot DiazNovember 18, 2011 - 3:51pm
Liana,
I didn't mean to be an Ass-Hat or denigrate your point. Not in the least. I assure you I share some of your same concerns about this issue. I too found myself questioning the name-dropping (Clev, SGJ) as well as the whole Freddy vs. Wolverine quandary. And then there was the considerable use of band names and film references, actors...comic book characters...
How are these icons and elements of pop culture presented and utilized to the service of the storytelling? Do they benefit it or detract from it? Do they sew theme, enrich the plot and shape characters? Frequently, in the case of Stay God, yes. Occasionally no.
For the most part Nik employs these props fairly well. I see no problem with the employment of elements of pop culture to aid in storytelling. And as Flaminia said, this practice really isn't anything new, but perhaps has become more prevalent with the rise of pop culture to dominate portions of our lives. I do however think that as successful as Nik's use of these props are, they could have sometimes been presented or arranged a bit differently to become even more effective.
How did Nik expose them? Often with a degree of nudity and a paucity of unpacking. For example at the end of the second chapter instead of alluding to authors Craig Clevenger and Stephen Graham Jones by dressing them in the threads of their alluring literary attire, say Dermaphoria and Demon Theory respectively, Nik falls flat into that sticky name-dropping pit--this to the slight detriment of their potential value and effectiveness in the story.
Both Clevenger's and SGJ's stories have parallels with Korpon's Stay God, but instead of implying these Nik opts instead to merely drop their authors names. Synapses in the readers' imaginations go unsparked--not to mention that all-important storytelling element of curiosity. As sexy as Craig's and Stephen's names are, I don't think they're any competition for the aforementioned book titles. Not only that but throwing them out there the way he did really borders on telling, not showing. And we all know how Clevenger feels about that.
Isn't one of the most effective tools an author has the imagination of the reader? Combined with the reader's desire to ask and answer questions during the course of a story, isn't the reader's unique imagination the grout that ultimately binds the story mosaic together in a personal way?
Not to run this into the ground or kiss too much Clev ass, but Clevenger as many of us know values the reader's imagination as one of the most important writing tools in the writing arsenal--even though ironically it's one that technically doesn't even hang in any given writer's shed. For those of you who haven't heard him say it, he says it far exceeds anything that the writer can attempt to fabricate with mere words. To ignite it is perhaps the most important thing a writer can accomplish. Indeed the success or failure of a work hinges largely on this, doesn't it?
No story bores the reader's imagination more than one that provides too many of the answers. I'm in no way suggesting that Stay God is mottled with 'tells' but on occasion supplies the answers a but too readily instead of luring the reader into answering them for themselves--or at least being allowed to ponder them for a bit before receiving the answers. The story telling would certainly benefit from a bit more caching particularly where all of these pop elements are concerned.
In other words, wipe Mayonnaise on your reader's mind all you like, but hold onto your Smashing Pumpkins; your reader will usually find them soon enough playing in the nostalgic aisles of memory. And if not, they might just be urged to seek them out for themselves leading them to discover a band or film they didn't know existed. All the more gratifying.
Provide lyrics or movie lines, not their origins. I was surprised at how seldom Nik displayed lyrics or fitting movie lines when music and film played such big roles in the story. Readers generally read to put words together in the process of solving one kind of puzzle or another. That's the reward. Solving the puzzle. Where is the fun in having it solved for you? Name that tune was a fairly successful TV show, wasn't it? Jeopardy anyone?
Fortunately Stay God doesn't suffer too much in this regard. Nik still managed to capitalize on these things particularly in the area of character development.
Damon's character is largely defined by these elements, shaped in a big part by all of this pop culture paraphernalia. We come to know him like we might come to know one another: through his musical, literary, cinematic and gaming likes and dislikes. These things describe him just as much as the fact that he prefers Snaps and Codys to Smack and Psychedelics. He likes to be stimulated, all the Über Coca he does attests to that. He's well-read and a formidable pop culture library on a number of subjects. All of the referenced pop conveys this to the reader. I doubt such character development could be achieved without it.
Not only that but the music plays a substantial role in the story's plot. I think Nik did a really good job of incorporating this element into the story, but again I would have preferred veiled references over openly stated ones. Lines like ...taking a listen... to describe doing more lines was brilliant. I only wished that he'd presented that first to compel me to wonder (imagine) what that meant as opposed to providing the answer first then providing the question. Again, presentation or exposition decisions.
Another area where this pop culture vehicle propels the story is on the wheels of the Freddy vs.Wolverine question. Hobbs vs. Damon? Hobbs' perceived threat is in the imagination a very powerful tool, a supernatural one compared to Damon's more humanistic fears.
In the end though, Wolverine wins the battle. In the story anyway.
Which leads me to ponder the question of characters and the dynamics functioning between them.
But alas I'll save that discussion for a future post.
NikKorpon
from Baltimore is reading Book and books and books andNovember 18, 2011 - 6:29pm
(Disclaimer: This started as an ‘I have two minutes and should really address what these kind people are saying’ post, and ballooned into something much longer. I apologize in advance if it becomes too revealing or self-deprecating. Both are equally large and detrimental parts of my personality. I know it’s probably not wise to shit on yourself as you’re trying to sell your book, but I’ve never been accused of intelligence.)
Wow. That is was a beautiful post, Chester. All of these, really, are completely making my night. Very kind things that are very much appreciated. That last post, as well as Chuck's (I believe) are ones that really stick with me and are probably the easiest to address. And hopefully keep me from meandering too far from the topic.
Pop Culture
As anyone who has read (just about) any of my work or had the misfortune to speak with me can attest, I am an unabashed nerd. I love Star Wars, as is evident in Old Ghosts. I live, breathe and frequently speak in lines from films/books/music. Sometimes to my own detriment, if you ask my wife. Because I'm only learning how to hide myself in characters, many of the early protags are me with a different hair color. I've been a firm believer that, to paraphrase Rob in High Fidelity, what you like defines what are. One of my biggest writing influences is Simon Pegg, especially when teamed with Jessica Stevenson, and if anyone’s seen Spaced, they’ll understand (though in my defense, my obsession with the series didn’t start until after I wrote StayGod.) What really speaks to me is that it’s about people my age who are as unrelentingly dorky about the same things I am and view society and life through the spectrum of pop culture. It’s not homage, it’s a tinted worldview, and that perspective felt very right to me. There’s also the whole idea of adult children attempting to become adults, which will ebb into a whole other post. Regardless, it was the perspective I wanted to write from, because it was the perspective I was living and didn’t know any other way to write. Looking back at it, parts are goddamn unbearable, but, hey, it was my first book and I didn’t know any better.
Dating Yourself
Stay God, the first five chapters at least, was my Masters dissertation. One of the things my professors kept bringing up was the whole issue of dating the work. They were concerned I’d be limiting the appeal of the book, making it harder to sell and whatnot. Though their concerns were not unwarranted, I figured, ‘Fuck it, they’re British and bent on preservation. The Guardian and Man Booker people love their books, and wouldn’t sop up rasher grease with mine, so why should I give a fuck?’ Which is pretty much how I ended the debate. Yeah, some of the references do place it within a certain year, but I figured there’s nothing wrong with it. If we’re being honest here, I’ll be chuffed if people remember my name fifty years from now, much less want to read my book. It was a chance I was willing to take. It’s interesting, too, how dating yourself is anathema at the moment, but brilliant sociological observation down the line. Revisionist history, maybe.
Letting it Breathe
This was the first real piece of writing I’d done. Figuring it might be the only book I’d ever write, I wrote exactly the book I wanted to read. Flipping through it, I catch whole swatches of earnest first-time-writer double-barrel glaring out at me. Some parts of the book work better for me than others. Some lines I still love and try to reword so I can rip myself off. Some parts I wish I’d chopped out. This isn’t fishing for compliments or anything; I figure we’re all in the same boat, words shrieking round in our skulls while we try to figure out how big and where to bore the hole so they come out in the right order, and it’s only right to be dead honest. A lot of the pieces, especially the ones Chester pointed out, I see solely as a product of insecurity, of a young writer trying to figure out what the fuck he’s doing. Not that I’ve actually figured anything out, mind, but I’m better at hiding. Like the waning presence of pop culture, these instances have died down in my more recent work, though my wife did catch a misregulated metaphor the day I got my copies of Warpriest. If I was to go back and rewrite Stay God, there would be much more negative space in the prose, pockets of ether to buoy the reader as they’re shooting gaps between comparisons. Sitting in my dank flat, though, I just wanted to make sure people knew what I was talking about. Cue: name drops. Some were funny. Some writers I admired. Some just an anvil of letters that billows dust beside the reader’s toes. When they work, I think they’re really good. The handbook of contortionism Damon reads while trying to figure out how to get through the situation, Kiss Me, Judas when he’s a breath from betrayal. I’m okay with being proud of them. And any chance I get to take a potshot at Richard or Caleb is okay with me.
Do I regret writing any of it? Absolutely not. It was exactly the book I wanted to write at the time I needed to write it. Would I write it again? Probably not, but more because I’ve already done it. There are so many stories flitting through the air around us, so many worlds to explore. I just need to wait with my chopsticks ready and get all Mr. Miyagi on their collective ass.
Liana
from Romania and Texas is reading Naked LunchNovember 18, 2011 - 6:31pm
Chester no worries, I wasn't taking it the wrong way at all. In fact, I tried to find an area of controversy because it seemed to me that the thread wouldn't be very productive if it went too much in the direction of "this is what I liked about it," "this is what I liked about it," "this is what I liked about it." There is a lot of value in recognizing the craft and what we can learn from writers we talk about in the book club section, so I'm learning both from the book and from people pointing out the qualities of the book that I may not have noticed. This is, I assume, why we have a book club to begin with, so we can look at the craft of other writers and try to think of how that can help us.
But by the same token, I think it's equally valuable to discuss certain elements that we may not agree on, because I personally learn from that. I asked the question so I too could think about it further - how much is too much, how can pop culture help a novel, because I want to figure it out for myself too. This book is probably in a genre that I wouldn't write too successfully in anyway, but I can certainly learn from it because it's well written. I don't want to take away from its merits, but I think it's worth having a discussion on debatable elements.
I did point out that I liked the novel and I do enjoy the references to music and movies - for example the Freddy and Wolverine references work very well, I think. Like you, I questioned the name dropping. Now the issue of letting the reader's imagination do the work, this is where I may differ somewhat, because I'm concerned that too much literature today tends toward minimalism and saying less while expecting the reader to fill in the rest. Not that I'm a lazy reader, but I don't want everything to be up to the reader. Song lyrics use is great. Pop culture references are great as long as they don't overwhelm in a way that seems gratuitous. I'm not saying I thought Stay God did that, but sometimes I thought maybe it was a bit much, and I'm sure this is subjective after all.
NikKorpon
from Baltimore is reading Book and books and books andNovember 18, 2011 - 6:37pm
Oh, Liana, I meant to say this earlier in regards to your question about speaking freely. Please say whatever is on your mind. I don't think anyone would hold their tongue for my sake anyway, but I've got a wicked thick skin and I'm not easily offended. I've learned more from two two-star reviews on Goodreads than a rack of five-stars. This thread isn't about me anyway.
Chester Pane
from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot DiazNovember 18, 2011 - 7:21pm
Thanks Nik.
I think it's great you're here participating. Your insight is invaluable. This is fun.
I think the way you used Damon reading the handbook of contortionism and Kiss me Judas worked very well. I suppose because I am familiar with them that might make it easier to recognize and pat myself on the back.
And the cameos: Richard, Caleb, Axel, Gordon, Dwyer, and Gayle. I'm still wondering who Christian is, especially since you apologized for soiling his good name.
I look forward to hearing from you as the discussion progresses (of course between penning your next book) and I promise to test the mettle of your wicked thick skin!
Vraj,
I agree with almost everything you said and I'm glad you're here to throw some teeth into the discussion. Like you said, one of the great things is that we can learn while enjoying great books. Not only that but in this case we have the fucking author himself here! Yay Korp!
On the subject of minimalism and leaving things for the reader to define, I don't mean in an extreme way that obscures all meaning and expects the reader to solve complex linguistic equations. Like the saying goes, some things are best left to the imagination.
Besides, if you were to place the books out there that inhabit bestseller lists and the bookshelves of the masses, the ones with narratives that fill in all of the blanks leaving little to the imagination or interpretation would overwhelming outweigh those that dare to challenge the reader. Not overwhelm, mind you, just challenge. And in a good way. A way that the reader participates in intimately. But I know what you mean by the extreme.
EdVaughn
from Louisville, Ky is reading a whole bunch of different stuffNovember 18, 2011 - 10:08pm
I have to say I also wondered the whole time reading it who Christian was and why his good name was soiled.
Liana
from Romania and Texas is reading Naked LunchNovember 18, 2011 - 10:14pm
I'm glad you said that Nik, and I certainly won't give you two stars.
NikKorpon
from Baltimore is reading Book and books and books andNovember 19, 2011 - 4:21am
Ha! Christian is my best friend. I told him that I'd make him a character in the book because he's been tattooing me for years for free. The relationship between Damon and Christian is largely based on the two of us, but I'm usually the one getting us out of trouble, and there is way less drugs now. The way they interact was something I wanted to address, and the tendency for popular culture to resort to gay/dick jokes when discussing male relationships, using Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz as reference points.
wickedvoodoo
from Mansfield, England is reading stuff.November 19, 2011 - 11:59am
This has been an awesome thread so far.
Nice of you to wade in and put us to rights, Nik.
Here's a few of my thoughts.
The pop culture stuff worked fine for me for the most part. This has already been discussed and I don't want to repeat what people have already said so I will leave it at saying the movie/music/book references seemd to fit in well. It's clear that Damon in a bit of a geek, so the comic book stuff and the horror movie stuff all helps with establishing his authority as a character. Whether or not it will feel dated in ten years - who cares? This isn't a book for people in ten years time, this is a book for people now. Nik wasn't trying to write the next Moby Dick. If it does end up being viewed as a kind of 'time-capsule' in the future then that is a bonus but this book's habitat is right here and now.
What I didn't like so much was the actual name drops. The Calebs and Richards etc. I had a similar issue with Richard Thomas's Transubstantiate. The problem for me is that I know who these references are illuding to therefore thinking about that breaks my concentration on the story. Obviously these guys are Nik's buddies, and it's a lovely gesture to namedrop them, but I'd rather read an acknowledgements intro that have the characters named after real folks. If I wasn't a Cult/Litreactor member and didn't know who these people were then it wouldn't have been any kind of problem - as it is I found it distracting.
For the record here is what Richard said when I said a similar thing in his thread over at the Cult.
For those that aren't familiar with them, I figured they'd pass right over it, but to those that know, it probably did interrupt the flow. It's my first book, and I'm still learning, so I may not do something that deliberate again.
But, really, this is a tiny complaint. I mean it hardly spoils the plot in any way.
I thought was that the story was a little slow getting started. The banter and so forth was quite amusing, but I was struggling to get into it to begin with. It gets A LOT better once Damon's world starts to crumble around him. Nik captures the paranoid mania perfectly and I enjoyed the book more with each chapter I read.
When it gets into top gear it really moves.
So my question here (to the other posters and to Nik) is would this story have benefitted from dropping more early teasers about what was to come? We learn a great deal about how these people run their business, and about Damon and Mary's relationship, early on in the page-count. This does have a pay off of course, character-and-setting are very strong, but early in the book it seemed a bit tedious. In hindsight I think some of the scenes where Damn holes himself up in Christian's flat would have made for an interesting change of pace if they had been slipped in earlier. Would have peaked my interest in the story a little earlier.
Maybe. Or maybe I'm miles away from the concensus there.
The paranoia though - that was wonderfully well done. The parts where Damon is afraid to answer the door made me smile every time. The obsession with Hobb's twins, and the looking for shoes, all handled so well. Made me think of Dermaphoria and the painting of the 'bugs.' It made me think of Philip K DIck - books like A Scanner Darkly. Stay God is on a par with these titles with how well it inflicts the paranoia on the reader.
Flaminia Ferina
from Umbria is reading stuffNovember 19, 2011 - 11:20am
The biggest disappointment of my Stay God experience was when I realized that Damon and Christian hadn't actually shot the zombie movie. Or at least nobody got back to it any longer. I really, really hoped the whole plot would twist in that direction, and that Hobbs would be given the role of the betrayer in the flick.
Bad, bad Nik Korpon (where's your wicked thick skin now?).
NikKorpon
from Baltimore is reading Book and books and books andNovember 19, 2011 - 2:08pm
Funny you say that, Flamina. I wrote the first draft of Stay God in about six weeks and needed some way to clear my head. Three days later, I had a 120-page script chock full of zombie ridiculousness. It's basically a cross between Gidget, Dawn of the Dead and West Side Story. I sent it to Troma but they said it was too violent and disgusting to film. There's also a human-zombie sex scene.
Charles
from Portland is reading Mongrels by Stephen Graham JonesNovember 19, 2011 - 7:10pm
^^^^ i knew there was a reason i liked you, nik.
Flaminia Ferina
from Umbria is reading stuffNovember 20, 2011 - 8:29am
Ew @ human on zombie sex action, but I hope we all can read it, or - ahem - watch it one day.
Now this is very very interesting. It had a powerful effect on me, that invitation of Christian about the zombie movie. I thought, as I read, "wow, this is awesome" not just because I grew up on zombie movies and they somehow signed the peak of me and my sister's quality time together. It's the relieving power it got.
Damon's crisis was just skyrocketing and I was suffering with him, as a reader you know, and when Christian arrived and he was pissed and Damon was really passing the line with all his shit and paranoia.. well, Christian acted like the older brother. If Damon was a child and his 'big brother' Christian had seen him suffering hard, he could have said "Look, now we clean all this mess you've made and then we go to the theme park, okay?" and Damon would stop bitching. I stopped swetting when I read there would be a zombie movie. I smiled a smile of hope for the whole universe. That exact moment signed the beginning of the upturn.
The most interesting thing for me now, as a writer, is hearing from you Nik that zombies were also your way of 'clearing your head'. Your own. I think these details can be of great inspiration for an aspiring writer as to how Editing/Creative processes can work - and the whole management of the imaginative, which is so troubling. We all have ideas, but how to fit them in a story? What's the right order and stuff?
words shrieking round in our skulls while we try to figure out how big and where to bore the hole so they come out in the right order
Exactly.
.
November 20, 2011 - 9:42am
Nik, I'm still a bit curious about Mary's intentions at the end.
NikKorpon
from Baltimore is reading Book and books and books andNovember 21, 2011 - 9:03am
What do you mean, Jack? By the end of the boom, you're still curious, or you're curious of her intentions in the end scenes? Which end, too?
I had the same thoughts on familiar naming. Funny then, but i don't do it now unless the characters have popped up in other stories.
Chester Pane
from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot DiazNovember 21, 2011 - 11:50am
On the subject of familiar naming I think a lot of authors do this and I don't think for the majority of readers that it is even an issue.
Honestly, what portion of the readership (outside of those of us with our ears glued to the rails) would even know who Gordon or Dwyer were?
I'm curious. Besides Martin, who else knew who Nik was referring to?
And on the subject of Mary's motivations, I'm not certain what Dakota (Jack) is referring to, but I think it has to do with her actions near the end. I suppose we are beyond the whole 'spoiler' concern, so I will chime in on this as well because it's been brought up twice now.
Damon was fucking up big time, but it's clear that Mary was in love with him and that she was only 'friends' with Hobbs ( a curious relationship) until Damon fucked up so bad that she finally left him.
Is what Damon did (a shitload of blow, pills and booze--and pursuing a different supplier) enough motivation to compel Mary to become so angry at Damon to actually consider killing him? I think Nik wrote her convincingly enough that the reader believes she loves him, so if this is true does this scene where she is about to kill him make sense?
Furthermore: Does it make sense that someone who was fed up with all of this drug dealing run from one dealer who she was in love with to another, much more dangerous one who she had limited feelings for? She seems smarter than that. I saw her more as the type who would take the money or at least some of it and get the fuck out of Baltimore. Perhaps if Hobbs didn't come across as such a dweeb, it might be feasible that Mary would return to him. But Nik has made it clear (at least to me) that Mary really doesn't like Hobbs romantically. To be honest, other than the cultural 'film' thing, it wasn't clear what Mary sees in Hobbs other than a mutual cultural (film) interest which is tenuous at best.
That leads me to this final bullet: Hobbs's character is flawed. And by this I mean underdeveloped. I think there's a missing dynamic in the story because of this. One side of the love triangle could have been more sound structurally. I would have liked to see more of Hobbs to make sense out of him.
About what Flaminia mentioned: There was that hopeful point when Damon was by the river thinking about getting his shit together and shooting a film. I don't think the question of whether or not Christian survived the assault was ever answered, but I sort of imagined (or hoped) that Christian did recover and the two did end up making a movie. But then I guess Damon would have become famous and been arrested for manslaughter for the Amherst incident.
Just thinking out loud.
.
November 21, 2011 - 7:21pm
Is what Damon did (a shitload of blow, pills and booze--and pursuing a different supplier) enough motivation to compel Mary to become so angry at Damon to actually consider killing him? I think Nik wrote her convincingly enough that the reader believes she loves him, so if this is true does this scene where she is about to kill him make sense?
Ahem, yes this is what I was trying to say. I think you answered my question Chester.
.
November 21, 2011 - 7:22pm
Nik, what is your process when you outline your books?
Charles
from Portland is reading Mongrels by Stephen Graham JonesNovember 21, 2011 - 11:38pm
i knew who he was referring to, chester. besides brent. no idea who that might be.
also, good work on the super in depth response chet. great insights.
Pete
from Detroit is reading Red DragonNovember 22, 2011 - 3:31pm
Brent Miller? If so, he's a cultie...
Chester Pane
from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot DiazNovember 22, 2011 - 5:21pm
Thanks Dakota and Chuck, I try to be as pretentious as possible.
Nice detective work Pete.
So Nik, is Brent a Miller? Inquiring minds want to know. I'm also curious about Dakota's outline question.
I also just want to say how impressed I am that Stay God is your debut Novel.
NikKorpon
from Baltimore is reading Book and books and books andNovember 23, 2011 - 11:26am
Sorry, busy with the baby.
Brent is my college roommate. I used to bartend with him and thought it'd be fitting. The outline and motivation questions require more typing than I can handle on my phone. I'll try to answer when (if! for the love of god) the baby goes down.
Charles
from Portland is reading Mongrels by Stephen Graham JonesNovember 23, 2011 - 1:23pm
hey nik. my friend emailed me (who isnt doing this on here, but is reading your book) and says to me "in the kindle version, the page before chapter12 cuts off mid word." and i order it, flip through it. it does
"every particle of her settle into me, and i never wa"
seriously. now, i know this doesnt really effect the reading since its only a couple words that are cut off, but given the general length of your chapters, it might make someone feel that they have missed almost an entire chapter. i dont know if there's anything you can do about this, but i thought you should know, and maybe you could.
Caleb J. Ross
from Kansas City, KS is reading on the toilet by himselfNovember 28, 2011 - 12:46pm
I'm late to the party. I read this book a while ago (a couple of times) so I wanted first-time readers to have the forum before I jump in. But now that I've waited this long, it seems all the juicy stuff has been spoken for.
Regarding pop-culture in books, the simple rule is (should be?) if understanding the reference is required to understand the plot, then be careful. However, if the reference is used to color the character, then we're fine.
American Psycho was mentioned earlier. That book walks a thin line between pop-culture as color and as a plot device. But it works. Could that book have worked if set in any other decade? Probably not. The 80s were all about excess and ego (though I'd say the the late 90's and aughts, with social media being so huge, gets pretty close to the egomania of the 80s).
Stay God used the pop-culture references nicely to paint Damon as an intelligent, but still culturally connected, person. This is important considering his role as a drug-dealing music store owner. Damon has to be self- and outside-aware to make that balance work.
NikKorpon
from Baltimore is reading Book and books and books andNovember 28, 2011 - 1:38pm
Okay, sorry for the delay.
MOTIVATION
-Is what Damon did (a shitload of blow, pills and booze--and pursuing a different supplier) enough motivation to compel Mary to become so angry at Damon to actually consider killing him? I think Nik wrote her convincingly enough that the reader believes she loves him, so if this is true does this scene where she is about to kill him make sense?
When I wrote it, I was of the mind that Mary did not want to kill Damon, but if she didn't then Hobbs would. She was trying to be compassionate, personal, whatever. If the Scarlet Woman hadn't walked in, would she have shot him? Probably not. She probably would've stood there, staring, gun shaking, until Hobbs popped one. If I'd written it now, I think I'd appraoch her arc differently.
Furthermore: Does it make sense that someone who was fed up with all of this drug dealing run from one dealer who she was in love with to another, much more dangerous one who she had limited feelings for? She seems smarter than that. I saw her more as the type who would take the money or at least some of it and get the fuck out of Baltimore. Perhaps if Hobbs didn't come across as such a dweeb, it might be feasible that Mary would return to him. But Nik has made it clear (at least to me) that Mary really doesn't like Hobbs romantically. To be honest, other than the cultural 'film' thing, it wasn't clear what Mary sees in Hobbs other than a mutual cultural (film) interest which is tenuous at best.
Interesting. I never saw Hobbs as a dweeb. Tall, thick and muscular, refined, maybe. Damon's foil pretty much. I think Mary went with him depsite the drugs because it was never about the drugs. Damon betrayed her, choosing himself over her, which is why she left. I think, in an act of insecure-writer, she actually says 'It was never about the drugs' or something to that effect. Again, if I wrote it now, there'd definitely be more depth to her reaction, the implication of her possibly taking the money and splitting.
That leads me to this final bullet: Hobbs's character is flawed. And by this I mean underdeveloped. I think there's a missing dynamic in the story because of this. One side of the love triangle could have been more sound structurally. I would have liked to see more of Hobbs to make sense out of him.
Yep. Totally busted.
PROCESS
My writing process has streamlined over the seven or eight large projects I've done. The process for Stay God was much more intense than By the Nails of the Warpriest or the two short novels I did over the summer. I hope that means I'm learnign something, but could as easily mean I'm getting lazy.
It always starts with an image or what-if. I freewrite on that until I start to see a story in the static, then I move from Moleskine to index cards to start arranging plotpoints. Sometimes these cards have long descriptions, sections of dialogue, an idea that needs to be pushed, or just 'something fucked up happens to Wren.' I usually then copy the cards onto their own page in my notebook so I have space to expand on them, jot notes about the setting, more dialigue, reminders for what happened earlier. Sometimes they just stay blank until I go into the actual writing.
I never look back once I start writing, unless it's to remember a line I wanted to echo, a detail that needs to be repeated. I don't want to get sucked into the editing until a few weeks after the first draft is done so I don't delete all of it in a fit of ineptitude. With Stay God, I had all of these Excel spreadsheets tacked to the walls, over top of the MS pages, tracking everything from emotional intensity to use and type of drug to how often a character shows up. Like I said, I haven't done that since, but it helped then. I go through anywhere between ten and thirty drafts of editing, cutting or adding scenes, replacing and combining characters, whatever else until I have the story down solid. Then I get into line edits. CClev's intensive was a huge help with this, both the class exercises themselves and the checklists I took from them.
After all that, I wait for the waning moon to crest through silver midnight clouds, whisper 'Klaatu barada nikto' and plunge my athame into the belly of the goat I procurred and hope someone buys the book. Doesn't hurt to throw in a few rosaries and cover all the bases.
Chester Pane
from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot DiazDecember 1, 2011 - 8:33am
Nik,
Glad to see you got that baby handled. Mine are 19 and 15 and I'm still struggling with them. But they are so worth it, aren't they? Fuckin' miracles.
Thank you for the in-depth responses, I'm sure everyone appreciates them just as much as I do.
I have another question if you'd be so gracious (like my grandmother always said) to answer. I was wondering what you personally like the most about Stay God. That is what part of that Novel sticks with you the most whether it was a moment when you saw it really coming together, or once it was beautifully bound....or having shitheads like me call a gangster and murderer like Hobbs a dweeb? Okay scratch that last one...
EdVaughn
from Louisville, Ky is reading a whole bunch of different stuffDecember 14, 2011 - 7:26pm
Two weeks later...I'm glad you laid out your process, Nik. I'm always interested in how writers start their project. I'm afraid I'm doing it the hard way but seems like I'm doing it in a similar way.
My two cents (in fact twenty, with the inflation):
(and I have spoilers too)
The dynamic pace of the story is what I like the most about it - dialogue is fast, narration never slows it down, so it reads like a movie, almost (I can picture it on a screen). I like the surreal aspect of the whirlwind of events, when they start unfolding and gratefully they move farther and farther away from a relationship that is quite cheesy, or rather too good to be true, or so it seemed to me (I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, and then it dropped like a bomb). There were hints that Damon and Mary would never have that wedding and house and model-yet-sucky life they see in other couples, because who would want to see two cool characters become what would rob the real romance out of their life? That's why I think the ending is perfect. It reminds me of what I liked about the movie House of Flying Daggers - maybe even other elements remind me of that. Oh how could I forget to mention this in the foreign movie thread... one of my favorite love stories of all time! So that's one part I loved about the book too - that love-death connection, a suspicion that only in death love can become sublime, so I can understand why a writer would be tempted to save them from a life of mortgages and bills, etc.
What I question is the usefulness of all the pop culture references, I mean the usefulness in the long run. It's very enjoyable now, to us contemporary readers (or those who have lived through a few different decades) to see all those references make the novel alive, real to us. But how will someone read this book 100 years from now? Much of that local color of these last decades would be hard for them to make sense of unless they study on purpose what pop culture was like at this time. Of course I may be off with my concern - if everyone wrote thinking how the book will be read in 100 years, what would that do to writing? It's just that since there are so many such references, I'd think someone unfamiliar with them would become frustrated.
I like the clever turn of phrase - sometimes I'm amazed of a sentence he comes up with, like this one:
"...it occurs to me how much time the two of us have spent on couches--or the space where a couch used to be--sorting through the debris when our lives implode and someone dies or somebody leaves or you wish that one of them would just shut up, and it makes me want to turn Japanese and just sit on the floor cushions to head off disaster before it finds my new address." -- that's part of the intrigue of the book: there is a sense that something is coming and he can't stop it, so you want to find out what it is.
He also is good at adding emotional tension to a scene:
"Two hundred million synapses in the brain, all firing at the same time, and mine couldn't make a single decision. Legs tingled that tingle, like life was being sucked from the bottom of my feet."
So it was a fun read.
I love the ol' pop culture debate and how some industry folk are complete hardasses about staying away from that.
Here's my two cents on that:
American Psycho in 1991 - contemporary thriller/satire
American Psycho present day - a time capsule of the 80's and the yuppie lifestyle
I site this book because it's brimming with pop culture (movies, music, fashion, etc.), so the question here is: if pop culture dates a book (and we're assuming this is a bad thing, right?) then why does AP still work so well?
Brandon: AP was released before I was born, yeti ts still one of my most loved novels. Aside from good writing, perhaps it's that the themes of: satire, alienation, disgust and hate (and all the other ones) are universal and that the popculture references are just ways they are conveyed rather than having to know them specifically.
I guess I'm just concerned about what is done with those references: if they are just there, I think it's better to have less than more, but if they create some kind of atmosphere, add to the social commentary, maybe even have some descriptives attached, etc, then of course they would work well as a time capsule. There's a story "Sonny's Blues" by James Baldwin and there is a long passage describing the sound of a certain type of jazz music that really makes you feel as if you actually heard it. But given that Stay God is a dynamic narrative, I can see how that would interfere with the pacing, so it was a good idea not to linger on too many of the specifics of those references.
I really enjoyed this book. It was the kind of book that I like to read and the kind of stuff I try to write myself. I thought Damon was relatable. I remember having very similar conversations with friends that Damon had with his friends, the same kind of arguements with girlfriends. The narrative voice was spot-on and I found myself immersed in Korpon's Baltimore. The only complaint that I would have is that the story was a little slow at times but didn't make me want to stop reading or anything. He did a good job at showing Damon's paranoia. I wasn't too sure if Hobbs really was out to get him or not at times. Judging from Korpon's other online work I can tell he has become an even better writer since this book. I'll definantly be following his career here on out.
Let me just say (officially) that I really enjoyed Korpon's book. Thought I should throw that in there since I basically talked up American Psycho in the Stay God thread.
We're on the same label, so I'm going to leave the discussion up to you guys as to avoid any sort of nepotism, but I at least wanted to chime in that much.
liana
i questioned those for a while too (it merits noting that i hate that in writing, because i feel it dates unnecessarily) but then, it's also hard to avoid entirely. the conclusion i kept coming back to, no... i keep coming back to even writing this... is that some people are defined by pop culture. there are comic nerds, star wars freaks, trekkies, and people who jack off to the stratacaster. as a writer it is sometimes our responsibility to honor that in people through our characters. it would be false to pretend that those people don't exist. i think [personally] the author's decision to make the narrator and the main character fall into this category is a pretty bold one. a lot of readers would be tempted to stop reading, some probably would stop. but, at the same time there is something to be said for encapsulating a time and a place, down to the nerdery and the hipster bands and the pop-culture prescription drugs of that time and place. classic authors are praised for this, and contemporaries are faulted for it. it's a hypocrisy, if you ask me.
but at the same time, im also in no way advocating that everyone start name dropping and talking about spiderman vs wolverine, or anything like that...
The pop culture references added to the relatability of characters in a very effective way, imo. There is a fair percentage of movie freaks in my area, involved in drug movements or not, and I can testify that their lives revolve a great deal around cinematic trivia.
The use of movie posters and themed furniture as downplay devices during Damon's crises - like he relied on those objects as pieces of reality, handholds to cling to when everything around was swirling - has given the narration a paradoxical flavor that makes the setting resemble so much our freaky times.
This generation has been fed tv shows, ads, movies, soap operas, music, celebrities - in a word, Entertainment - right from the cradle. Entertainment is our reality, so is pop culture.
Damon has no family of his own. He looked at those posters like they were his father, sometimes. Movies are his family, his certainties, together with Mary and Christian.
I agree that this was a good move in the writing. Not only does it keep the reader engaged but let's remember "The Great Gatsby." Fitzgerald used references to that time period to the skin of his teeth. In my opinion, it works. Why wouldn't it? Saying references dates a book is just subjective anyway.
Chuck brought up an excellent point about this "Pop Culture" element that yarns through Stay Gold, Say God, Stay God. Classical writers, more precisely, Historical Fiction writers, are praised for this scrutiny of detail while contemporary writers (contemporary becoming more and more obsolete like 'modern') are admonished for incorporating it.
Considering that society has more recently embraced the phenomenon of "Pop," indeed Pop is probably enjoying its heyday as we speak, then books like AP and others will probably be mined by future reading generations just for this reason. Ironic.
I loved all of the Cameo's. Richard Thomas....Caleb....
Well I agree - there's nothing wrong with pop culture in a novel (in fact I think it's great). That's not what I meant. I was just wandering, for example, if a band name is enough to evoke the atmosphere of that type of music for those who are not familiar with the band. But maybe this is too nitpicky from my part. What would you do, how would you use it? Just a general question, wondering what the best approach would be.
I think that the best approach is to describe what you see, or what you think you see, or whatever idea, for whatever reason, you associate with what you're writing about in a certain moment. It may sound simplistic and maybe it just is, so what? Your peculiar vision, your own perception, will be what makes your narration unique. We are not isolated beings and I find it extra cool that we are discussing about these details now, 'cause it's all about communication.
For example: it made absolutely sense for me that the Notorius Cd was the coke one, while Depeche Mode were chosen for H. It will be surely not so immediate in 2055, when peeps will read Stay God and won't appreciate that particular nuance. Some people will though, and those will be the lucky ones who get the extra pleasure.
Some people read Euripides nowadays and can imagine tibias playing in the background. They enjoy a supplemental epiphany.
I don't know if this has been posted here yet, but whatever I'll post it again.
If you're enjoying Stay God, today only you can download Nik's novella - By the Nails of the Warpriest - for free!
No catch. Just go to the link and download it for free.
http://www.blastedheath.com/?p=4038
It was front page news, sir.
ef that! I rarely check the front page. I have the forum book marked. So it can be reposted here too! haha
im with pete.
i rarely check the magazine section or the front page unless i see something interesting there on facebook or something
Liana,
I didn't mean to be an Ass-Hat or denigrate your point. Not in the least. I assure you I share some of your same concerns about this issue. I too found myself questioning the name-dropping (Clev, SGJ) as well as the whole Freddy vs. Wolverine quandary. And then there was the considerable use of band names and film references, actors...comic book characters...
How are these icons and elements of pop culture presented and utilized to the service of the storytelling? Do they benefit it or detract from it? Do they sew theme, enrich the plot and shape characters? Frequently, in the case of Stay God, yes. Occasionally no.
For the most part Nik employs these props fairly well. I see no problem with the employment of elements of pop culture to aid in storytelling. And as Flaminia said, this practice really isn't anything new, but perhaps has become more prevalent with the rise of pop culture to dominate portions of our lives. I do however think that as successful as Nik's use of these props are, they could have sometimes been presented or arranged a bit differently to become even more effective.
How did Nik expose them? Often with a degree of nudity and a paucity of unpacking. For example at the end of the second chapter instead of alluding to authors Craig Clevenger and Stephen Graham Jones by dressing them in the threads of their alluring literary attire, say Dermaphoria and Demon Theory respectively, Nik falls flat into that sticky name-dropping pit--this to the slight detriment of their potential value and effectiveness in the story.
Both Clevenger's and SGJ's stories have parallels with Korpon's Stay God, but instead of implying these Nik opts instead to merely drop their authors names. Synapses in the readers' imaginations go unsparked--not to mention that all-important storytelling element of curiosity. As sexy as Craig's and Stephen's names are, I don't think they're any competition for the aforementioned book titles. Not only that but throwing them out there the way he did really borders on telling, not showing. And we all know how Clevenger feels about that.
Isn't one of the most effective tools an author has the imagination of the reader? Combined with the reader's desire to ask and answer questions during the course of a story, isn't the reader's unique imagination the grout that ultimately binds the story mosaic together in a personal way?
Not to run this into the ground or kiss too much Clev ass, but Clevenger as many of us know values the reader's imagination as one of the most important writing tools in the writing arsenal--even though ironically it's one that technically doesn't even hang in any given writer's shed. For those of you who haven't heard him say it, he says it far exceeds anything that the writer can attempt to fabricate with mere words. To ignite it is perhaps the most important thing a writer can accomplish. Indeed the success or failure of a work hinges largely on this, doesn't it?
No story bores the reader's imagination more than one that provides too many of the answers. I'm in no way suggesting that Stay God is mottled with 'tells' but on occasion supplies the answers a but too readily instead of luring the reader into answering them for themselves--or at least being allowed to ponder them for a bit before receiving the answers. The story telling would certainly benefit from a bit more caching particularly where all of these pop elements are concerned.
In other words, wipe Mayonnaise on your reader's mind all you like, but hold onto your Smashing Pumpkins; your reader will usually find them soon enough playing in the nostalgic aisles of memory. And if not, they might just be urged to seek them out for themselves leading them to discover a band or film they didn't know existed. All the more gratifying.
Provide lyrics or movie lines, not their origins. I was surprised at how seldom Nik displayed lyrics or fitting movie lines when music and film played such big roles in the story. Readers generally read to put words together in the process of solving one kind of puzzle or another. That's the reward. Solving the puzzle. Where is the fun in having it solved for you? Name that tune was a fairly successful TV show, wasn't it? Jeopardy anyone?
Fortunately Stay God doesn't suffer too much in this regard. Nik still managed to capitalize on these things particularly in the area of character development.
Damon's character is largely defined by these elements, shaped in a big part by all of this pop culture paraphernalia. We come to know him like we might come to know one another: through his musical, literary, cinematic and gaming likes and dislikes. These things describe him just as much as the fact that he prefers Snaps and Codys to Smack and Psychedelics. He likes to be stimulated, all the Über Coca he does attests to that. He's well-read and a formidable pop culture library on a number of subjects. All of the referenced pop conveys this to the reader. I doubt such character development could be achieved without it.
Not only that but the music plays a substantial role in the story's plot. I think Nik did a really good job of incorporating this element into the story, but again I would have preferred veiled references over openly stated ones. Lines like ...taking a listen... to describe doing more lines was brilliant. I only wished that he'd presented that first to compel me to wonder (imagine) what that meant as opposed to providing the answer first then providing the question. Again, presentation or exposition decisions.
Another area where this pop culture vehicle propels the story is on the wheels of the Freddy vs.Wolverine question. Hobbs vs. Damon? Hobbs' perceived threat is in the imagination a very powerful tool, a supernatural one compared to Damon's more humanistic fears.
In the end though, Wolverine wins the battle. In the story anyway.
Which leads me to ponder the question of characters and the dynamics functioning between them.
But alas I'll save that discussion for a future post.
(Disclaimer: This started as an ‘I have two minutes and should really address what these kind people are saying’ post, and ballooned into something much longer. I apologize in advance if it becomes too revealing or self-deprecating. Both are equally large and detrimental parts of my personality. I know it’s probably not wise to shit on yourself as you’re trying to sell your book, but I’ve never been accused of intelligence.)
Wow. That is was a beautiful post, Chester. All of these, really, are completely making my night. Very kind things that are very much appreciated. That last post, as well as Chuck's (I believe) are ones that really stick with me and are probably the easiest to address. And hopefully keep me from meandering too far from the topic.
Pop Culture
As anyone who has read (just about) any of my work or had the misfortune to speak with me can attest, I am an unabashed nerd. I love Star Wars, as is evident in Old Ghosts. I live, breathe and frequently speak in lines from films/books/music. Sometimes to my own detriment, if you ask my wife. Because I'm only learning how to hide myself in characters, many of the early protags are me with a different hair color. I've been a firm believer that, to paraphrase Rob in High Fidelity, what you like defines what are. One of my biggest writing influences is Simon Pegg, especially when teamed with Jessica Stevenson, and if anyone’s seen Spaced, they’ll understand (though in my defense, my obsession with the series didn’t start until after I wrote Stay God.) What really speaks to me is that it’s about people my age who are as unrelentingly dorky about the same things I am and view society and life through the spectrum of pop culture. It’s not homage, it’s a tinted worldview, and that perspective felt very right to me. There’s also the whole idea of adult children attempting to become adults, which will ebb into a whole other post. Regardless, it was the perspective I wanted to write from, because it was the perspective I was living and didn’t know any other way to write. Looking back at it, parts are goddamn unbearable, but, hey, it was my first book and I didn’t know any better.
Dating Yourself
Stay God, the first five chapters at least, was my Masters dissertation. One of the things my professors kept bringing up was the whole issue of dating the work. They were concerned I’d be limiting the appeal of the book, making it harder to sell and whatnot. Though their concerns were not unwarranted, I figured, ‘Fuck it, they’re British and bent on preservation. The Guardian and Man Booker people love their books, and wouldn’t sop up rasher grease with mine, so why should I give a fuck?’ Which is pretty much how I ended the debate. Yeah, some of the references do place it within a certain year, but I figured there’s nothing wrong with it. If we’re being honest here, I’ll be chuffed if people remember my name fifty years from now, much less want to read my book. It was a chance I was willing to take. It’s interesting, too, how dating yourself is anathema at the moment, but brilliant sociological observation down the line. Revisionist history, maybe.
Letting it Breathe
This was the first real piece of writing I’d done. Figuring it might be the only book I’d ever write, I wrote exactly the book I wanted to read. Flipping through it, I catch whole swatches of earnest first-time-writer double-barrel glaring out at me. Some parts of the book work better for me than others. Some lines I still love and try to reword so I can rip myself off. Some parts I wish I’d chopped out. This isn’t fishing for compliments or anything; I figure we’re all in the same boat, words shrieking round in our skulls while we try to figure out how big and where to bore the hole so they come out in the right order, and it’s only right to be dead honest. A lot of the pieces, especially the ones Chester pointed out, I see solely as a product of insecurity, of a young writer trying to figure out what the fuck he’s doing. Not that I’ve actually figured anything out, mind, but I’m better at hiding. Like the waning presence of pop culture, these instances have died down in my more recent work, though my wife did catch a misregulated metaphor the day I got my copies of Warpriest. If I was to go back and rewrite Stay God, there would be much more negative space in the prose, pockets of ether to buoy the reader as they’re shooting gaps between comparisons. Sitting in my dank flat, though, I just wanted to make sure people knew what I was talking about. Cue: name drops. Some were funny. Some writers I admired. Some just an anvil of letters that billows dust beside the reader’s toes. When they work, I think they’re really good. The handbook of contortionism Damon reads while trying to figure out how to get through the situation, Kiss Me, Judas when he’s a breath from betrayal. I’m okay with being proud of them. And any chance I get to take a potshot at Richard or Caleb is okay with me.
Do I regret writing any of it? Absolutely not. It was exactly the book I wanted to write at the time I needed to write it. Would I write it again? Probably not, but more because I’ve already done it. There are so many stories flitting through the air around us, so many worlds to explore. I just need to wait with my chopsticks ready and get all Mr. Miyagi on their collective ass.
Chester no worries, I wasn't taking it the wrong way at all. In fact, I tried to find an area of controversy because it seemed to me that the thread wouldn't be very productive if it went too much in the direction of "this is what I liked about it," "this is what I liked about it," "this is what I liked about it." There is a lot of value in recognizing the craft and what we can learn from writers we talk about in the book club section, so I'm learning both from the book and from people pointing out the qualities of the book that I may not have noticed. This is, I assume, why we have a book club to begin with, so we can look at the craft of other writers and try to think of how that can help us.
But by the same token, I think it's equally valuable to discuss certain elements that we may not agree on, because I personally learn from that. I asked the question so I too could think about it further - how much is too much, how can pop culture help a novel, because I want to figure it out for myself too. This book is probably in a genre that I wouldn't write too successfully in anyway, but I can certainly learn from it because it's well written. I don't want to take away from its merits, but I think it's worth having a discussion on debatable elements.
I did point out that I liked the novel and I do enjoy the references to music and movies - for example the Freddy and Wolverine references work very well, I think. Like you, I questioned the name dropping. Now the issue of letting the reader's imagination do the work, this is where I may differ somewhat, because I'm concerned that too much literature today tends toward minimalism and saying less while expecting the reader to fill in the rest. Not that I'm a lazy reader, but I don't want everything to be up to the reader. Song lyrics use is great. Pop culture references are great as long as they don't overwhelm in a way that seems gratuitous. I'm not saying I thought Stay God did that, but sometimes I thought maybe it was a bit much, and I'm sure this is subjective after all.
Oh, Liana, I meant to say this earlier in regards to your question about speaking freely. Please say whatever is on your mind. I don't think anyone would hold their tongue for my sake anyway, but I've got a wicked thick skin and I'm not easily offended. I've learned more from two two-star reviews on Goodreads than a rack of five-stars. This thread isn't about me anyway.
Thanks Nik.
I think it's great you're here participating. Your insight is invaluable. This is fun.
I think the way you used Damon reading the handbook of contortionism and Kiss me Judas worked very well. I suppose because I am familiar with them that might make it easier to recognize and pat myself on the back.
And the cameos: Richard, Caleb, Axel, Gordon, Dwyer, and Gayle. I'm still wondering who Christian is, especially since you apologized for soiling his good name.
I look forward to hearing from you as the discussion progresses (of course between penning your next book) and I promise to test the mettle of your wicked thick skin!
Vraj,
I agree with almost everything you said and I'm glad you're here to throw some teeth into the discussion. Like you said, one of the great things is that we can learn while enjoying great books. Not only that but in this case we have the fucking author himself here! Yay Korp!
On the subject of minimalism and leaving things for the reader to define, I don't mean in an extreme way that obscures all meaning and expects the reader to solve complex linguistic equations. Like the saying goes, some things are best left to the imagination.
Besides, if you were to place the books out there that inhabit bestseller lists and the bookshelves of the masses, the ones with narratives that fill in all of the blanks leaving little to the imagination or interpretation would overwhelming outweigh those that dare to challenge the reader. Not overwhelm, mind you, just challenge. And in a good way. A way that the reader participates in intimately. But I know what you mean by the extreme.
I have to say I also wondered the whole time reading it who Christian was and why his good name was soiled.
I'm glad you said that Nik, and I certainly won't give you two stars.
Ha! Christian is my best friend. I told him that I'd make him a character in the book because he's been tattooing me for years for free. The relationship between Damon and Christian is largely based on the two of us, but I'm usually the one getting us out of trouble, and there is way less drugs now. The way they interact was something I wanted to address, and the tendency for popular culture to resort to gay/dick jokes when discussing male relationships, using Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz as reference points.
This has been an awesome thread so far.
Nice of you to wade in and put us to rights, Nik.
Here's a few of my thoughts.
The pop culture stuff worked fine for me for the most part. This has already been discussed and I don't want to repeat what people have already said so I will leave it at saying the movie/music/book references seemd to fit in well. It's clear that Damon in a bit of a geek, so the comic book stuff and the horror movie stuff all helps with establishing his authority as a character. Whether or not it will feel dated in ten years - who cares? This isn't a book for people in ten years time, this is a book for people now. Nik wasn't trying to write the next Moby Dick. If it does end up being viewed as a kind of 'time-capsule' in the future then that is a bonus but this book's habitat is right here and now.
What I didn't like so much was the actual name drops. The Calebs and Richards etc. I had a similar issue with Richard Thomas's Transubstantiate. The problem for me is that I know who these references are illuding to therefore thinking about that breaks my concentration on the story. Obviously these guys are Nik's buddies, and it's a lovely gesture to namedrop them, but I'd rather read an acknowledgements intro that have the characters named after real folks. If I wasn't a Cult/Litreactor member and didn't know who these people were then it wouldn't have been any kind of problem - as it is I found it distracting.
For the record here is what Richard said when I said a similar thing in his thread over at the Cult.
But, really, this is a tiny complaint. I mean it hardly spoils the plot in any way.
I thought was that the story was a little slow getting started. The banter and so forth was quite amusing, but I was struggling to get into it to begin with. It gets A LOT better once Damon's world starts to crumble around him. Nik captures the paranoid mania perfectly and I enjoyed the book more with each chapter I read.
When it gets into top gear it really moves.
So my question here (to the other posters and to Nik) is would this story have benefitted from dropping more early teasers about what was to come? We learn a great deal about how these people run their business, and about Damon and Mary's relationship, early on in the page-count. This does have a pay off of course, character-and-setting are very strong, but early in the book it seemed a bit tedious. In hindsight I think some of the scenes where Damn holes himself up in Christian's flat would have made for an interesting change of pace if they had been slipped in earlier. Would have peaked my interest in the story a little earlier.
Maybe. Or maybe I'm miles away from the concensus there.
The paranoia though - that was wonderfully well done. The parts where Damon is afraid to answer the door made me smile every time. The obsession with Hobb's twins, and the looking for shoes, all handled so well. Made me think of Dermaphoria and the painting of the 'bugs.' It made me think of Philip K DIck - books like A Scanner Darkly. Stay God is on a par with these titles with how well it inflicts the paranoia on the reader.
The biggest disappointment of my Stay God experience was when I realized that Damon and Christian hadn't actually shot the zombie movie. Or at least nobody got back to it any longer. I really, really hoped the whole plot would twist in that direction, and that Hobbs would be given the role of the betrayer in the flick.
Bad, bad Nik Korpon (where's your wicked thick skin now?).
Funny you say that, Flamina. I wrote the first draft of Stay God in about six weeks and needed some way to clear my head. Three days later, I had a 120-page script chock full of zombie ridiculousness. It's basically a cross between Gidget, Dawn of the Dead and West Side Story. I sent it to Troma but they said it was too violent and disgusting to film. There's also a human-zombie sex scene.
^^^^ i knew there was a reason i liked you, nik.
Ew @ human on zombie sex action, but I hope we all can read it, or - ahem - watch it one day.
Now this is very very interesting. It had a powerful effect on me, that invitation of Christian about the zombie movie. I thought, as I read, "wow, this is awesome" not just because I grew up on zombie movies and they somehow signed the peak of me and my sister's quality time together. It's the relieving power it got.
Damon's crisis was just skyrocketing and I was suffering with him, as a reader you know, and when Christian arrived and he was pissed and Damon was really passing the line with all his shit and paranoia.. well, Christian acted like the older brother. If Damon was a child and his 'big brother' Christian had seen him suffering hard, he could have said "Look, now we clean all this mess you've made and then we go to the theme park, okay?" and Damon would stop bitching. I stopped swetting when I read there would be a zombie movie. I smiled a smile of hope for the whole universe. That exact moment signed the beginning of the upturn.
The most interesting thing for me now, as a writer, is hearing from you Nik that zombies were also your way of 'clearing your head'. Your own. I think these details can be of great inspiration for an aspiring writer as to how Editing/Creative processes can work - and the whole management of the imaginative, which is so troubling. We all have ideas, but how to fit them in a story? What's the right order and stuff?
Exactly.
Nik, I'm still a bit curious about Mary's intentions at the end.
What do you mean, Jack? By the end of the boom, you're still curious, or you're curious of her intentions in the end scenes? Which end, too?
I had the same thoughts on familiar naming. Funny then, but i don't do it now unless the characters have popped up in other stories.
On the subject of familiar naming I think a lot of authors do this and I don't think for the majority of readers that it is even an issue.
Honestly, what portion of the readership (outside of those of us with our ears glued to the rails) would even know who Gordon or Dwyer were?
I'm curious. Besides Martin, who else knew who Nik was referring to?
And on the subject of Mary's motivations, I'm not certain what Dakota (Jack) is referring to, but I think it has to do with her actions near the end. I suppose we are beyond the whole 'spoiler' concern, so I will chime in on this as well because it's been brought up twice now.
Damon was fucking up big time, but it's clear that Mary was in love with him and that she was only 'friends' with Hobbs ( a curious relationship) until Damon fucked up so bad that she finally left him.
About what Flaminia mentioned: There was that hopeful point when Damon was by the river thinking about getting his shit together and shooting a film. I don't think the question of whether or not Christian survived the assault was ever answered, but I sort of imagined (or hoped) that Christian did recover and the two did end up making a movie. But then I guess Damon would have become famous and been arrested for manslaughter for the Amherst incident.
Just thinking out loud.
Nik, what is your process when you outline your books?
i knew who he was referring to, chester. besides brent. no idea who that might be.
also, good work on the super in depth response chet. great insights.
Brent Miller? If so, he's a cultie...
Thanks Dakota and Chuck, I try to be as pretentious as possible.
Nice detective work Pete.
So Nik, is Brent a Miller? Inquiring minds want to know. I'm also curious about Dakota's outline question.
I also just want to say how impressed I am that Stay God is your debut Novel.
Sorry, busy with the baby.
Brent is my college roommate. I used to bartend with him and thought it'd be fitting. The outline and motivation questions require more typing than I can handle on my phone. I'll try to answer when (if! for the love of god) the baby goes down.
hey nik. my friend emailed me (who isnt doing this on here, but is reading your book) and says to me "in the kindle version, the page before chapter12 cuts off mid word." and i order it, flip through it. it does
"every particle of her settle into me, and i never wa"
seriously. now, i know this doesnt really effect the reading since its only a couple words that are cut off, but given the general length of your chapters, it might make someone feel that they have missed almost an entire chapter. i dont know if there's anything you can do about this, but i thought you should know, and maybe you could.
I'm late to the party. I read this book a while ago (a couple of times) so I wanted first-time readers to have the forum before I jump in. But now that I've waited this long, it seems all the juicy stuff has been spoken for.
Regarding pop-culture in books, the simple rule is (should be?) if understanding the reference is required to understand the plot, then be careful. However, if the reference is used to color the character, then we're fine.
American Psycho was mentioned earlier. That book walks a thin line between pop-culture as color and as a plot device. But it works. Could that book have worked if set in any other decade? Probably not. The 80s were all about excess and ego (though I'd say the the late 90's and aughts, with social media being so huge, gets pretty close to the egomania of the 80s).
Stay God used the pop-culture references nicely to paint Damon as an intelligent, but still culturally connected, person. This is important considering his role as a drug-dealing music store owner. Damon has to be self- and outside-aware to make that balance work.
Okay, sorry for the delay.
MOTIVATION
-Is what Damon did (a shitload of blow, pills and booze--and pursuing a different supplier) enough motivation to compel Mary to become so angry at Damon to actually consider killing him? I think Nik wrote her convincingly enough that the reader believes she loves him, so if this is true does this scene where she is about to kill him make sense?
When I wrote it, I was of the mind that Mary did not want to kill Damon, but if she didn't then Hobbs would. She was trying to be compassionate, personal, whatever. If the Scarlet Woman hadn't walked in, would she have shot him? Probably not. She probably would've stood there, staring, gun shaking, until Hobbs popped one. If I'd written it now, I think I'd appraoch her arc differently.
Furthermore: Does it make sense that someone who was fed up with all of this drug dealing run from one dealer who she was in love with to another, much more dangerous one who she had limited feelings for? She seems smarter than that. I saw her more as the type who would take the money or at least some of it and get the fuck out of Baltimore. Perhaps if Hobbs didn't come across as such a dweeb, it might be feasible that Mary would return to him. But Nik has made it clear (at least to me) that Mary really doesn't like Hobbs romantically. To be honest, other than the cultural 'film' thing, it wasn't clear what Mary sees in Hobbs other than a mutual cultural (film) interest which is tenuous at best.
Interesting. I never saw Hobbs as a dweeb. Tall, thick and muscular, refined, maybe. Damon's foil pretty much. I think Mary went with him depsite the drugs because it was never about the drugs. Damon betrayed her, choosing himself over her, which is why she left. I think, in an act of insecure-writer, she actually says 'It was never about the drugs' or something to that effect. Again, if I wrote it now, there'd definitely be more depth to her reaction, the implication of her possibly taking the money and splitting.
That leads me to this final bullet: Hobbs's character is flawed. And by this I mean underdeveloped. I think there's a missing dynamic in the story because of this. One side of the love triangle could have been more sound structurally. I would have liked to see more of Hobbs to make sense out of him.
Yep. Totally busted.
PROCESS
My writing process has streamlined over the seven or eight large projects I've done. The process for Stay God was much more intense than By the Nails of the Warpriest or the two short novels I did over the summer. I hope that means I'm learnign something, but could as easily mean I'm getting lazy.
It always starts with an image or what-if. I freewrite on that until I start to see a story in the static, then I move from Moleskine to index cards to start arranging plotpoints. Sometimes these cards have long descriptions, sections of dialogue, an idea that needs to be pushed, or just 'something fucked up happens to Wren.' I usually then copy the cards onto their own page in my notebook so I have space to expand on them, jot notes about the setting, more dialigue, reminders for what happened earlier. Sometimes they just stay blank until I go into the actual writing.
I never look back once I start writing, unless it's to remember a line I wanted to echo, a detail that needs to be repeated. I don't want to get sucked into the editing until a few weeks after the first draft is done so I don't delete all of it in a fit of ineptitude. With Stay God, I had all of these Excel spreadsheets tacked to the walls, over top of the MS pages, tracking everything from emotional intensity to use and type of drug to how often a character shows up. Like I said, I haven't done that since, but it helped then. I go through anywhere between ten and thirty drafts of editing, cutting or adding scenes, replacing and combining characters, whatever else until I have the story down solid. Then I get into line edits. CClev's intensive was a huge help with this, both the class exercises themselves and the checklists I took from them.
After all that, I wait for the waning moon to crest through silver midnight clouds, whisper 'Klaatu barada nikto' and plunge my athame into the belly of the goat I procurred and hope someone buys the book. Doesn't hurt to throw in a few rosaries and cover all the bases.
Nik,
Glad to see you got that baby handled. Mine are 19 and 15 and I'm still struggling with them. But they are so worth it, aren't they? Fuckin' miracles.
Thank you for the in-depth responses, I'm sure everyone appreciates them just as much as I do.
I have another question if you'd be so gracious (like my grandmother always said) to answer. I was wondering what you personally like the most about Stay God. That is what part of that Novel sticks with you the most whether it was a moment when you saw it really coming together, or once it was beautifully bound....or having shitheads like me call a gangster and murderer like Hobbs a dweeb? Okay scratch that last one...
Two weeks later...I'm glad you laid out your process, Nik. I'm always interested in how writers start their project. I'm afraid I'm doing it the hard way but seems like I'm doing it in a similar way.