Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryMarch 27, 2013 - 2:07pm
And the debate about the topic of Darkseid/Thanos has become a debate about the debateability of the initial debate subject. This is some deft shit you've pulled off.
Brandon, I think Dwayne is edging you in the "debate trickster" category.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakMarch 27, 2013 - 2:12pm
Brandon, I think Dwayne is edging you in the "debate trickster" category.
That's debatable.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 27, 2013 - 2:30pm
I'd like to point out that the original topic I said was undebatable, still isn't be debated.
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryMarch 27, 2013 - 2:32pm
I'd just like to point out that I misspelled "debatable" in my previous post.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakMarch 27, 2013 - 2:36pm
I'd like to point out that the original topic I said was undebatable, still isn't be debated.
Then I shall quote your post so that it may be pointed out twice.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 27, 2013 - 3:12pm
Is this the internet version of catch?
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 27, 2013 - 3:21pm
22, or in the rye?
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 27, 2013 - 3:31pm
Catch.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakMarch 27, 2013 - 3:44pm
Is this the internet version of catch?
If I say yes are you going to come back with a bunch of reasons why it isn't?
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 27, 2013 - 3:57pm
No. I'll just point out that still aren't debating TVD.
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 27, 2013 - 4:11pm
Transvestite ducks?
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 27, 2013 - 4:29pm
Two venereal diseases?
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakMarch 27, 2013 - 4:31pm
No. I'll just point out that still aren't debating TVD.
No, I am. Been texting back and forth about it with a friend of mine. Of course he knew to ask if Thanos has the Infinity Guantlet in this scenario.
So I'm doing it just not...y'know...with you.
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 27, 2013 - 4:33pm
transvaginal donkeys?
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakMarch 27, 2013 - 5:12pm
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 27, 2013 - 5:48pm
@Brandon - Why would that be relevant to a debate about who is a better villain? It sounds like it would be a debate about who would win which is a separate question.
And remember, friends are just enemies who just don't have the guts to kill you.*
*Can anyone name the obscure reference?
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakMarch 27, 2013 - 5:51pm
Why would that be relevant to a debate about who is a better villain? It sounds like it would be a debate about who would win which is a separate question.
ESPN did this thing where they debated on who was a better player: Jordan or Lebron.
Then they debated about who would win in a game of one-on-one.
Usually the better player wins at one-on-one.
I can see the relevance.
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryMarch 27, 2013 - 6:31pm
Jordan 7 times out of 10.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeMarch 27, 2013 - 6:39pm
Jordan would certainly be the better villain. He could go from mischievous grinning to Japanese demon tongue-flaring in an instant.
fport
from Canada is reading The World Until Yesterday - Jared DiamondMarch 27, 2013 - 8:31pm
Situational ethics. Point of view. Slippery slopes. The greater good. Past experience.
Psychopath, zealot, messiah, annointed but definitely self appointed.
Justified, vindicated or avenged.
Intolerant.
There be dragons in those circumstances.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 27, 2013 - 9:29pm
@Brandon - Ah, I see. I don't know a nice way to say this, but I never imagined you could mean it that way. It is the silliest possible way, and you seem like a smart guy. By that logic Mxyztplk is a better villain then the Joker, Lex Luthor, or almost anyone.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakMarch 27, 2013 - 9:36pm
Yeah, Dwayne. That's just me being silly again.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 27, 2013 - 9:58pm
Do I need to tickle you?
Bradley Sands
from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten SongsMarch 28, 2013 - 12:57am
Make the villain think he or she is the hero of their own story.
Bob Pastorella
from Groves, Texas is reading murder books trying to stay hip, I'm thinking of you, and you're out there so Say your prayers, Say your prayers, Say your prayers March 28, 2013 - 4:00am
Make the villain think he or she is the hero of their own story.
Best advice on this thread.
My own thoughts: If villian is rational when compared to the average person, ie. not crazy, the writer should properly motivate the character. If said villian is not rational, ie. Fucking Crazy, it is best not to delve into the mindset for motivation but to remain a fly on the wall and show the reader how crazy this character is. If you choose to go into the mind of a crazy person, you better have your shit together, or the reader will groan and throw your book down, because sometimes it's best not to show them that his parents abused him, or that his dog died, or whatever terrible thing happened to the villain that makes him/her the villain. The reader has seen it before, and it is not necessary. When writing villains, Mamets 'There is no backstory' approach works best.
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 28, 2013 - 4:53am
First off, I gotta say... than. (sorry, just a pet peeve of mine, especially in a writers' community)
Secondly, I don't think a single thing said anywhere else on this site has ever given me the creeps more than Dwayne asking Brandon if he needs to tickle him... fuck that sends chills down my spine!
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryMarch 28, 2013 - 5:10am
Sounds like a promising Books and Booze in St. Louis moment in the making to me!
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 28, 2013 - 5:18am
These two posts sums up the original question of this thread.
Make the villain think he or she is the hero of their own story.
My own thoughts: If villian is rational when compared to the average person, ie. not crazy, the writer should properly motivate the character. If said villian is not rational, ie. Fucking Crazy, it is best not to delve into the mindset for motivation but to remain a fly on the wall and show the reader how crazy this character is. If you choose to go into the mind of a crazy person, you better have your shit together, or the reader will groan and throw your book down, because sometimes it's best not to show them that his parents abused him, or that his dog died, or whatever terrible thing happened to the villain that makes him/her the villain. The reader has seen it before, and it is not necessary. When writing villains, Mamets 'There is no backstory' approach works best.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 28, 2013 - 5:20am
First off, I gotta say... than. (sorry, just a pet peeve of mine, especially in a writers' community)
- I second this.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 28, 2013 - 10:01am
Make the villain think he or she is the hero of their own story.
Doesn't everyone think that?
When writing villains, Mamets 'There is no backstory' approach works best.
One of the reason I started this thread is my inability to pull this off without being horrible. The quality of my first drafts drops from solidly mediocre to at-least-its-not-Twilight when I try 'There is no backstory' villains.
Secondly, I don't think a single thing said anywhere else on this site has ever given me the creeps more than Dwayne asking Brandon if he needs to tickle him... fuck that sends chills down my spine!
Someone is jealous!
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryMarch 28, 2013 - 11:25am
I think Photon needs a foot rub.
Dwayne, you're up!
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 28, 2013 - 11:28am
I need a whole hell of a lot more than a foot rub, but I don't play with boys, even Dwayne. Boys have cooties. Dwayne might, too.
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryMarch 28, 2013 - 11:30am
I need a whole hell of a lot more than a foot rub from Dwayne.
Well. Dwayne. Looks like you're in for a long afternoon, buddy!
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 28, 2013 - 11:31am
Thanks for not changing what I wrote, itself, and only misquoting me. You're a true friend.
And Dwayne, you're a nice guy and all, and I'm sure you'll make some girl a real nice cootie carrier someday, but if you touch my feet, I'll be forced to dance in your blood.
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryMarch 28, 2013 - 11:34am
Shit, did I forget to change what you wrote? My bad.
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 28, 2013 - 11:36am
Nobody's perfect. Except Amy Adams.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 28, 2013 - 1:33pm
@Strange - Even if I did play on that team I could do better.
@Utah - You need to get out more.
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 28, 2013 - 1:36pm
Dwayne, trust me, you really could. I mean, I'm a cool guy and all, but my belief in spousal abusers deserving death only applies to those who abuse women. So, if we got married, I'd have no problem abusing you if my dinner was cold.
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryMarch 28, 2013 - 1:43pm
So Dwayne will be in the masculine position of your coupling?
Strange Photon
from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyricsMarch 28, 2013 - 1:45pm
Of course not, he's wearing the apron and that is final. If you have a problem with that, Dwayne, I want a divorce.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 28, 2013 - 1:48pm
@Utah - I know you are still disappointed over the whole Ron/Hermione thing, and I know you are the leader dude of the Dwayne/Strange shippers. You need to accept that except for those fanfics you write, it isn't going to happen with either couple.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 28, 2013 - 2:00pm
those fanfics you write
Man, that's just hitting below the belt. Of all the things I've seen written in these forums, that's got to be the lowest of the low.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 28, 2013 - 2:27pm
You get in the ring with me, it is a no words barred say mean stuff until some cries match.
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryMarch 28, 2013 - 2:31pm
Are you going to say mean stuff some time, Dwayne?
And those fanfics are going to make me a lot of money some day.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMarch 28, 2013 - 2:54pm
And those fanfics are going to make me a lot of money some day.
- I just hope you're writing about a cool character like, Patrick Bateman or Tyler Durden and not Edward Cullen or Harry Potter.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 28, 2013 - 2:58pm
@Utah - Would you be able to tell? Everyone tells me they don't know what I mean most of the time.
Sadly, they might indeed make you money.
Bob Pastorella
from Groves, Texas is reading murder books trying to stay hip, I'm thinking of you, and you're out there so Say your prayers, Say your prayers, Say your prayers March 28, 2013 - 7:00pm
One of the reason I started this thread is my inability to pull this off without being horrible. The quality of my first drafts drops from solidly mediocre to at-least-its-not-Twilight when I try 'There is no backstory' villains.
Of course, you're going to have a little backstory. Just remember, every time you drop a dime on the backstory, forward momentum halts. The best writers drop backstory in while the story is moving forward. Think of how Thomas Harris built up The Tooth Fairy in Red Dragon, or Dr. Lector in Silence of The Lambs. Now, think of how he did it in Hannibal. That book pales in comparison to the previous two, because of all the headspace we get inside Lector's mindset. I couldn't wait to get back the Mason Verger parts, because they were the most interesting, and consistently drove the plot forward. In the Red Dragon, Harris waits an eternity to get us to the POV of the killer. After pages and pages of reading about all the horrible things he's done, when we finally get to his POV, what's the guy doing? Falling in love. Just another day at the office. Harris used his other characters to show the villainy, then let the villain be the hero to round the guy off. We understand him without having to go into all the nasty backstory because it doesn't matter WHY he's so fucked up, just that he is so fucked up. And yeah, there's a little backstory, but it doesn't get in the way at all. You've got all these characters in your story, hopefully, that can do a lot of the work for you, and still move the story forward. Put them story people to work.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedMarch 28, 2013 - 7:37pm
See to me he was scarier in Hannibal. In the other two he was a boarder line superhuman, in Hannibal he was the kind of crazy guy I could imagine running into. I can see how his back story might have been more terrifying if it didn't explain things so cleanly (they ate his sister, he eats them develops a taste for humans he hates) but even with that it was the book the one I found most scary.
Bob Pastorella
from Groves, Texas is reading murder books trying to stay hip, I'm thinking of you, and you're out there so Say your prayers, Say your prayers, Say your prayers March 28, 2013 - 8:30pm
Another great example is how Stephen King handled Greg Stilson in The Dead Zone. After that initial scene with Stilson, we know without a doubt that fucker is crazy, but he doesn't really tell us why. It's the showing that lets us know.
Bradley Sands
from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten SongsMarch 29, 2013 - 2:03am
Make the villain think he or she is the hero of their own story.
And the debate about the topic of Darkseid/Thanos has become a debate about the debateability of the initial debate subject. This is some deft shit you've pulled off.
Brandon, I think Dwayne is edging you in the "debate trickster" category.
That's debatable.
I'd like to point out that the original topic I said was undebatable, still isn't be debated.
I'd just like to point out that I misspelled "debatable" in my previous post.
Then I shall quote your post so that it may be pointed out twice.
Is this the internet version of catch?
22, or in the rye?
Catch.
If I say yes are you going to come back with a bunch of reasons why it isn't?
No. I'll just point out that still aren't debating TVD.
Transvestite ducks?
Two venereal diseases?
No, I am. Been texting back and forth about it with a friend of mine. Of course he knew to ask if Thanos has the Infinity Guantlet in this scenario.
So I'm doing it just not...y'know...with you.
transvaginal donkeys?
Oooh, lookie here: Thanos vs Darkseid
It's all warmed up for you, Dwayne.
@Brandon - Why would that be relevant to a debate about who is a better villain? It sounds like it would be a debate about who would win which is a separate question.
And remember, friends are just enemies who just don't have the guts to kill you.*
*Can anyone name the obscure reference?
ESPN did this thing where they debated on who was a better player: Jordan or Lebron.
Then they debated about who would win in a game of one-on-one.
Usually the better player wins at one-on-one.
I can see the relevance.
Jordan 7 times out of 10.
Jordan would certainly be the better villain. He could go from mischievous grinning to Japanese demon tongue-flaring in an instant.
Situational ethics. Point of view. Slippery slopes. The greater good. Past experience.
Psychopath, zealot, messiah, annointed but definitely self appointed.
Justified, vindicated or avenged.
Intolerant.
There be dragons in those circumstances.
@Brandon - Ah, I see. I don't know a nice way to say this, but I never imagined you could mean it that way. It is the silliest possible way, and you seem like a smart guy. By that logic Mxyztplk is a better villain then the Joker, Lex Luthor, or almost anyone.
Yeah, Dwayne. That's just me being silly again.
Do I need to tickle you?
Make the villain think he or she is the hero of their own story.
Best advice on this thread.
My own thoughts: If villian is rational when compared to the average person, ie. not crazy, the writer should properly motivate the character. If said villian is not rational, ie. Fucking Crazy, it is best not to delve into the mindset for motivation but to remain a fly on the wall and show the reader how crazy this character is. If you choose to go into the mind of a crazy person, you better have your shit together, or the reader will groan and throw your book down, because sometimes it's best not to show them that his parents abused him, or that his dog died, or whatever terrible thing happened to the villain that makes him/her the villain. The reader has seen it before, and it is not necessary. When writing villains, Mamets 'There is no backstory' approach works best.
First off, I gotta say... than. (sorry, just a pet peeve of mine, especially in a writers' community)
Secondly, I don't think a single thing said anywhere else on this site has ever given me the creeps more than Dwayne asking Brandon if he needs to tickle him... fuck that sends chills down my spine!
Sounds like a promising Books and Booze in St. Louis moment in the making to me!
These two posts sums up the original question of this thread.
Doesn't everyone think that?
One of the reason I started this thread is my inability to pull this off without being horrible. The quality of my first drafts drops from solidly mediocre to at-least-its-not-Twilight when I try 'There is no backstory' villains.
Someone is jealous!
I think Photon needs a foot rub.
Dwayne, you're up!
I need a whole hell of a lot more than a foot rub, but I don't play with boys, even Dwayne. Boys have cooties. Dwayne might, too.
Well. Dwayne. Looks like you're in for a long afternoon, buddy!
Thanks for not changing what I wrote, itself, and only misquoting me. You're a true friend.
And Dwayne, you're a nice guy and all, and I'm sure you'll make some girl a real nice cootie carrier someday, but if you touch my feet, I'll be forced to dance in your blood.
Shit, did I forget to change what you wrote? My bad.
Nobody's perfect. Except Amy Adams.
@Strange - Even if I did play on that team I could do better.
@Utah - You need to get out more.
Dwayne, trust me, you really could. I mean, I'm a cool guy and all, but my belief in spousal abusers deserving death only applies to those who abuse women. So, if we got married, I'd have no problem abusing you if my dinner was cold.
So Dwayne will be in the masculine position of your coupling?
Of course not, he's wearing the apron and that is final. If you have a problem with that, Dwayne, I want a divorce.
@Utah - I know you are still disappointed over the whole Ron/Hermione thing, and I know you are the leader dude of the Dwayne/Strange shippers. You need to accept that except for those fanfics you write, it isn't going to happen with either couple.
You get in the ring with me, it is a no words barred say mean stuff until some cries match.
Are you going to say mean stuff some time, Dwayne?
And those fanfics are going to make me a lot of money some day.
@Utah - Would you be able to tell? Everyone tells me they don't know what I mean most of the time.
Sadly, they might indeed make you money.
Of course, you're going to have a little backstory. Just remember, every time you drop a dime on the backstory, forward momentum halts. The best writers drop backstory in while the story is moving forward. Think of how Thomas Harris built up The Tooth Fairy in Red Dragon, or Dr. Lector in Silence of The Lambs. Now, think of how he did it in Hannibal. That book pales in comparison to the previous two, because of all the headspace we get inside Lector's mindset. I couldn't wait to get back the Mason Verger parts, because they were the most interesting, and consistently drove the plot forward. In the Red Dragon, Harris waits an eternity to get us to the POV of the killer. After pages and pages of reading about all the horrible things he's done, when we finally get to his POV, what's the guy doing? Falling in love. Just another day at the office. Harris used his other characters to show the villainy, then let the villain be the hero to round the guy off. We understand him without having to go into all the nasty backstory because it doesn't matter WHY he's so fucked up, just that he is so fucked up. And yeah, there's a little backstory, but it doesn't get in the way at all. You've got all these characters in your story, hopefully, that can do a lot of the work for you, and still move the story forward. Put them story people to work.
See to me he was scarier in Hannibal. In the other two he was a boarder line superhuman, in Hannibal he was the kind of crazy guy I could imagine running into. I can see how his back story might have been more terrifying if it didn't explain things so cleanly (they ate his sister, he eats them develops a taste for humans he hates) but even with that it was the book the one I found most scary.
Another great example is how Stephen King handled Greg Stilson in The Dead Zone. After that initial scene with Stilson, we know without a doubt that fucker is crazy, but he doesn't really tell us why. It's the showing that lets us know.