Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 16, 2012 - 5:10am

Matt Foley was a motivational speaker. I am not. So I need help on a story. 

"Every main character should want something." Seems to be a rule with a lot of fiction. But sometimes in life we don't know what we want. I find myself in that predicament on occasion. I just get in my car and drive, just to drive. No destination, I just need to go. 

What if your character is unsure of his own motivations, or what if what he wants is irrational to begin with?  Wouldn't this alienate the reader? Make for a weak plot? 

Not everyone is going to want to destroy the one true ring, or find his one true love (as you wish).....what if it is a complicated motivation driving your character, or just scars....

Thoughts? 

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters May 16, 2012 - 5:22am

Every character should want something - not just the main ones. 

If you are lost, you want to be found.

If you don't know the motivation, you don't know the characters.  If his want is irrational, it is still a want. 

Every character should want something.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 16, 2012 - 5:28am

If his want is irrational, it is still a want."

Wouldn't that make for a weak plot? I doubt many folks could identify with that. 

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry May 16, 2012 - 5:37am

Not necessarily.  It really depends how you build your character.  If what he wants is irrational, improbable, etc., then make us like him/her.  Make us love your character.  It makes the improbability of what he/she wants that much more poignant to the reader.  Or make us hate them and contrast that with their longing for something lovely. 

On the other hand, you might say to us now, "My character's not like this or that."  In which case I would say that we need to know more about your character before we can give you much more.

But I think Avery is right.  You need to make sure you know your character.  Then you need to know what they want, rational or not.  Then just make the reader see why that's important to the character and go.

Rare edit:  Your above comment said that you don't know that many readers could identify with an irrational want.  Your reader doesn't identify with what your character wants, they identify with the character.  Make us believe your character.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 16, 2012 - 5:48am

@Utah- great advice. I think maybe creating empathy might do the trick. I've just always been under the impression that it has to be relatable. Or you just have to cheer for them. Hmmm alot to think about

GaryP's picture
GaryP from Denver is reading a bit of this and that May 16, 2012 - 6:12am

But sometimes in life we don't know what we want. I find myself in that predicament on occasion. I just get in my car and drive, just to drive. No destination, I just need to go.

Dude, re-read what you wrote. You think you're saying you don't want anything, you just drive to drive. But what you missed is the most important part: I just need to go.

You NEED to go. That's wanting something. WHY do you NEED to drive? That can be very compelling. And "sometimes in life we don't know what we want" ... man, that's everybody at one time or another. It's universal. Everyone (just about) can relate to that. A person will read that story/novel to find out how the character figures out what they really want. 

Also, the main character doesn't have to know the questions the story or novel is exposing, as long as you do and can drive the story in that direction. And if the character doesn't find a definitive answer by the end? That's also relateable/universal ... as long as the ending satisfies whatever promise you made the reader on the first page of the story or first chapter of the novel. 

You also said: Seems to be the rule with a lot of fiction. I would hazard that, except for some experimental pieces, it's every story that's ever been written (certainly that gets published). Every story has a character who wants something even (to paraphrase Vonnegut) if it's just a glass of water. As the writer, you have to ask: Why do they want that glass of water?

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 16, 2012 - 6:26am

Why do they want that glass of water?"

Great advice. I think that is what is what I am missing! 

You NEED to go. That's wanting something. WHY do you NEED to drive? That can be very compelling."

I don't think I thought of it like that.....that would be pretty good to figure out. Good, good stuff, a lot to think about. Thanks man! 

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry May 16, 2012 - 6:36am

@GaryP:  Very succinct, and good points for everybody to keep in mind.  Motivation and want go hand in hand, and are key to making the story work.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 16, 2012 - 8:24am

You know what I think? I think I may have a novel shaping up here. I really like what I've done so far, this will help me in the second draft. 

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks May 16, 2012 - 9:46am

Damn, Gary just blew my mind.

I was going to ask if this is about the character you and I discussed -- and I was going to say that, if so, wanting to be alone is a want in itself. Gary kind of took that idea and said it more eloquently than I think I could have.

The fun part of both creating and reading about a character is getting to crawl inside their head and understand who they are. It's not necessary to make them plain and visible, but hidden motivations are motivations, too. You can have an aura of mystery without alienating your readers as long as you know what's going on behind the curtains. When you write, you drop hints without meaning to -- it's because you know the story. Writers automatically build suspense because they know what's coming and start preparing their character for it. I think that's going to be the most important part of what you're writing (if it's the one we discussed.)

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 16, 2012 - 9:57am

Damn, Gary just blew my mind."

Yes. 

I was going to ask if this is about the character you and I discussed"

Yes. 

(if it's the one we discussed.)"

It is. 

---I think I am just trying to get a handle on how I present it. Long term, I know what's going to happen and I think I have gone through and dropped hints here and there. I think I am just trying to figure out a way to get a handle on it. The PTSD, the walk, all of it. 

It's identifiable it appears, I just wanted to make sure I was presenting it right. Given the review and all that. Stylistically, it's not for everyone, but I think if I can clear all the stuff up and give a clearer motive then it would work alot better. 

Along with what Utah said about making people emote for the character. 

 

I am seriously over thinking it though. I just read this in an essay during a break this morning. 

If you're working on a first draft... don't get it perfect - get it DONE.  Push through it until the horizontal journey is complete.  Shit out your lump of coal, scene by physical scene, until you see how it resolves itself."  LINK

 

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks May 16, 2012 - 10:16am

When I write my first drafts, I even breeze through my prose -- and I love words. It's why I keep telling you that no matter how much you love it now, you're going to love it so much more after your second draft is complete. I write what amounts to a plot outline with placeholders for characterization so I can focus more on shitting it out than making something worthwhile -- it takes the pressure off and makes the edits more rewarding. It gives me the chance to completely focus on one quality at a time, too.

That being said, don't freak out because one person (me) said that they didn't have a strong grasp on your character. I read too much into a first draft. It happens a lot when I do 5+ reviews in eight hours.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 16, 2012 - 10:22am

That being said, don't freak out because one person (me) said that they didn't have a strong grasp on your character. I read too much into a first draft. It happens a lot when I do 5+ reviews in eight hours."

No, it's not that. Just something I needed to work on to begin with. Someone else made the same comment. I am just trying to write something as strong as possible, that way it doesn't sit like the other two novels.

 

My lunch is too long. 

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks May 16, 2012 - 11:20am

I need a new idea. The novella I mentioned to you is beginning to feel static and immature and really fucking stupid. I'm almost considering opening a thread where we collect one-sentence prompts because I can't come up with an idea from scratch to save my life, but I can pervert a prompt into something cool. Like talking pigeons.

Speaking of pigeons, how is your hair today?

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 16, 2012 - 11:39am

LOL fucking pigeons. My hair is awesome as normal. 

Here is your prompt:

 

Why is someone digging a hole? 

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks May 16, 2012 - 11:53am

That's not a terrible prompt. Why is it phrased in a question? That makes it even cooler.

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig May 16, 2012 - 12:09pm

I think a lot of people could relate to irrational wants. Our lives are full of irrational desires. Teenage girls want the popular boy they've never spoken with to just walk over and ask them out on a date, spouses want their marriage to look like "happily ever after", people want to "find themselves" by taking a year long sabbatical, we want money to solve our problems, people wants to believe in people who have let them down time and time again, we want...you get the picture. Much of what we want is irrational, perhaps that's why we keep on wanting.

I think wanting, both rational and irrational, is a major part of the human experience. You just have to dig down and figure out a)what these characters want and b)what they are doing, or even not doing, to acheive that.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 16, 2012 - 12:24pm

I think those are great examples Renee. I like them a lot. Puts a lot into perspective. Something to mull over for sure! 

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 16, 2012 - 4:54pm

Well shit. I've thought myself into writers block. 

Covewriter's picture
Covewriter from Nashville, Tennessee is reading & Sons May 16, 2012 - 7:07pm

This has been a great thread to read! Only input: a character who doesn't know what he wants, who just drives and drives, is probably like most of us. Seemingly simple, yet complicated as hell. 

GaryP's picture
GaryP from Denver is reading a bit of this and that May 16, 2012 - 7:51pm

You're probably unstuck and writing away. But if not, you suggested you don't quite understand your characters yet, as in what motivates them. Try writing some character pieces with them unrelated to the novel. Maybe some incident from their childhood that helped form who they are. Right now, I'm writing a short story using a main character for a novel I might write. In the novel, he'll be about 40. The short story takes place when he's 19.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 17, 2012 - 1:12am

@Cove, couldn't have said it better. 

@Gary, I didn't. I did take the day off today though, so I am going to try working on it. But if I can't get going at  my current place in the plot, I think I am going skip ahead and work on another part of the story. 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated May 17, 2012 - 7:48am

Aren't all wants irrational? Some of them we relate with better, but they are all either emotional or physical so they lack logic.

I've been think about want as a concept a lot lately and C.S. Lewis wrote something that really spoke to me.

“It would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures...”
― C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory, and Other Addresses

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry May 17, 2012 - 7:50am

We are half-hearted creatures.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 17, 2012 - 9:27am

Let all this be a lesson not to overthink your stories on the first draft. Not one word has found itself on a page in 3 days! 

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig May 17, 2012 - 9:29am

Sometimes you have to sit down and start writing before you can figure out what you're trying to say. Or, at least, that's how it works for me. Yeah, it means more work in the rewrites, cutting all that stuff out, but I figure stuff out much easier when I just start writing about the characters.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner May 17, 2012 - 9:31am

Yeah, it's a real pain in the ass....but I am just going to have to start. I know once I do, it'll be like nothing ever happened. You are right as usual Renee! 

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig May 17, 2012 - 9:36am

If only I could write as much as I give good advice....

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated May 17, 2012 - 10:02am

It's much more effective to edit a bad first draft then never write it.