Hey everyone. I tried to do this in another thread but it was buried down so far I didn't think it was effective. Figured I'd break it out into its own topic.
For those of you who don't know me, my name is Rob, and I'm the class director at LitReactor. I've been at the gig for a few months now, and being settled, I figure it's a good time to open a dialogue. We just launched a new landing page for the classes (here), which I hope answers questions people may have. But getting some input about the program would be incredibly helpful.
For example:
- What kinds of classes do you want to see?
- What would you hope to get out of a class?
- Do you have any questions about the program that isn't answered here?
- Have you taken a class, and you have a positive/negative experience you want to talk about?
- Have you ever gone to sign up for a class and something made you decide not to?
I'm open to discussing anything, or answering questions. Have at it.
(And if there's something you want to ask or talk about off the record, feel free to PM me).
I want cheaper classes. I know this isn't very realistic, but money is the main reason I haven't taken more classes. I know you have a few 99 dollar classes, but more of them would be a big draw for me. 2 weeks, very focused on one thing.
I'd be very open to a 1 week class for 50 bucks. 1 lecture, 1 assignment, LOTS of interaction in the forum.
I want short classes by big name people (Lidia Y., Amy Hempel, Daniel Woodrell, Donald ray Pollock, Neil Gaiman are at the top of my list right now).
I hope to get some things I've never thought of out of each class. The one I took with Clevenger did that. It really opened my eyes to a lot of dialogue techniques and reasons for dialogue that I had never thought of and I read every book differently now because of his class.
I want the teacher to be involved in the message boards. I want to pick their brain, throw out ideas, discuss different ways of doing exactly what they are teaching, etc. I want interaction. I want the teacher to be as enthusiastic as the most enthusiastic student.
Having the chance to interact with the teacher is the most important thing for me - and I want the other students to be gabby and discuss the topics just as much. There's no way to weed out the people who won't talk - as even in the Clevenger class, we had easily half the class silent, but that's what I want.
In graded online classes, there's a minimum of posts per week necessary to pass the class. I don't know if you would ever want to have a pass/fail class system, but it might be something to motivate people into taking part in the actual class.
And, because I'm poor, I'd like to be able to spend my workshop points on a class. Maybe 500 points equals 50 bucks or something. That would motivate me (and others) to workshop more for a discount. But, that's just me being broke. I know these classes are worth every penny. I just don't have very many pennies.
Having the chance to interact with the teacher is the most important thing for me
That.
Because if you do a traditional class you are with the teach and you get to talk and ask questions and you are given a couple hours a week to do this. If I don't get that time I feel like it's a waste.
I've only taken one class (CClev, back at The Cult) but have wanted to take more, specifically the Faust, SGJ and Corbett ones. The only thing stopping me was the cost, which I assume is going to come up a lot in here, and it's probably a non-starter because the teachers need to be paid, too. I like that idea of translating workshop points into real money. I don't have any workshop points, but the idea is good.
I think the range and variety of topics has been great, making sure every aspect and genre of writing is covered. Maybe a submission class? Or that might be a waste of time.
Instructor interaction is a big thing, as Avery said above. I learned a lot just from bullshitting with Craig on the boards or phone conference. Having a shorter, less expensive class (I think Pat's runs along these lines) might be good to grab some of the people who don't have much time or money.
Overall, though, I think the classes are great, even if I can't afford to participate.
Or focusing on the submission process or something. I don't know if it's enough to warrant a class but it was something I wish I'd learned more about in my grad program. I'm covering it in my noir fiction class, trying to head off some mistakes that I made when figuring out how to send stuff out, who to send it to, how to make sure it's ready, all that stuff.
Thanks for starting the conversation, Rob.
I agree with everything Howie said, above, so I'll just tack on a few of my thoughts here, and mention my experiences with the classes.
Like AD and Howie, instructor involvement and enthusiasm is a must. Otherwise, it's basically the workshop and forums, with lectures.
I've taken two classes through LR: Kat Howard's spec-fic class and Suzy Vitello's recent dialogue intensive. Suzy's class was half the cost (under $200 is the sweet spot for me), half the time, but I feel that I learned considerably more with her in 2 weeks than I did with Kat in 4.
Suzy's lectures (4 over 2 weeks) were packed with information and examples, excerpts and exercises. We had a discussion thread for each lecture where we could bounce ideas around and ask questions. There was a high level of participation from the other students (or the class was large enough it just felt that way), and Suzy was very involved, herself. Her enthusiasm was infectious, and she was encouraging and welcoming. She didn't do a full critique of every student's final assignment (it was a big class) but she did pop in and make comments, as did other students. I was challenged to try new things, and to think more about dialogue both when I write and when I read. I wasn't able to attend the phone conference, but the availability of an MP3 of the complete call was a great addition and I don't feel I missed out there at all. Suzy also posted her lectures in .doc so we could easily download them for reference, which was also a nice touch.
Kat's class was smaller and covered 4 weeks, but also had 4 lectures. There was a writing assignment due each week, and we were divided into peer review groups of 4 to critique each others' work. The lectures weren't as in-depth as Suzy's and felt a bit dry. Kat was good about recommending work by other writers, but I'd rather see a paragraph of someone's work as an example than be told to read something by them outside of class. Many of the students used existing work for the assignments, which didn't always fit the criteria or were difficult to understand out of context, making them hard to critique. Kat maintained a firm distance from the class, critiqued each assignment and answered questions, but didn't become involved in discussions. Her critiques weren't always very helpful, and sometimes seemed to be based more on personal preference. The class had a wide range of skill and participation levels, and I ended up in a group with only two active participants including myself. Many students had never critiqued before, and as one of the more "seasoned" participants I made a point of reading and LBL'ing everyone's work. In the end I didn't feel very challenged or enlightened, and if I'd known what the class was going to be like I wouldn't have signed up. More class participation definitely would have been nice, as would a more uniform level of skill, but I know these are difficult things to control; I think a more hands-on instructor would have been beneficial in stepping up everyone's game.
I really liked the idea behind that Horror writing class that happened with the Shirley Jackson Award people. Having multiple instructors to each have a lecture seems like it can be a lot of fun and different than the other usual workshops, plus having all those great minds in one place to have discussions has a pretty unique learning aspect to it. Something like that would be cool to see again if possible.
I like the craft-specific classes and the genre classes. When like Howie I think of the big name people I'd like to learn from I prefer the classes like Christa Faust's or Yuknavitch's where they have workshops more based on the unique aspects of that instructor's writing, those have more of a once-in-a-lifetime learning opportunity feel. Really I just keep an eye out for writers I really dig, those are the ones I can justify paying for no matter what.
All my experiences have been terrific with the classes so far. One class I did end up not being able to participate because I moved/didn't have internet during the thing, but I still ended up with all the material afterward and don't see how problems like that could be avoided other than on my part being more practical with my decisions.
Kat's class didn't have a phone conference, but having since taken Suzy's I think it would be a beneficial addition. I wouldn't say I had a negative experience with the class; I just felt I didn't learn as much as I expected. I didn't realise how great it could have been until I took Suzy's class and had something to compare it to.
As for people using previous work--maybe we can make it more clear, to encourage people to write new work instead of recycling (which is the point, though I'm not going to pretend like I've never recycled something).
I think the novel-workshopping classes might be better if everyone went in at least with some previously written material to be prepared for the type of things discussed. Classes based around revision and submission I think also could be utilized best with previously written material, but those are exceptions. I think just a note in the class descriptions about the type of workload would clear all that up about people not writing new material for the excercises.
I've taken two classes here, Craig Clevenger's and Jon Gingerich. Craig's class was excellent. He was really, really generous with his time. I can't say enough good things about the way he presented the material, the assignments, his encouragement to use the forums and the time he took to answer everyone. That class was worth every cent.
I can honestly say the same for Jon's class.
These really come down to class participation. In Jon's class, I made the mistake of signing up when I was struggling with time. I went on vacation and from there it was tough for me to keep up with the workload and participate as much as I would have liked. That's on me.
In Craig's class I was pretty committed. I was able to read my peer group's work but not the entire class. I didn't get each story reviewed by my peers even though I made a point to review each story. Oh well. You can't do anything about that.
So, my experiences have been great. And like it's been mentioned, you can't make our classmates participate.
I'm encouraged by the cheaper products, since I may not be able to afford 400 dollar classes in the near future. I'd like to see a lot more of these classes/lectures across a broad range of subjects. As has been mentioned, a lecture in submitting to publication may be beneficial.
In addition to LitReactor, I take real life in the flesh classes and workshops in Boston. They have classes which basically range from 400 to 50. 400 is typically a 10 week workshop/lecture format, about 3 hours once per week. 100 is a 6 hour, one day seminar. 50 is a 3 hour, one night lecture. I've taken all three formats and found them all beneficial in their own right.
Rob, if you want to PM me, I can send you a link to the site where i take classes. It may be worth perusing just to see what kinds of classes they're offering, especially for the cheaper/shorter "one-off" classes.
@ Emma & Rob - I liked the information Kat presented, but I think a few things could have made the class more beneficial in hindsight (and apologies to Kara, I'm probably more verbal here than I was in my class review!):
- if students were encouraged to present short stories, rather than excerpts from their manuscripts. I found it difficult (and to be frank, boring, in some students' cases), to provide meaningful feedback on excerpts that had very little context, or were very long.
- at least one LBL from Kat per class. I did have the expectation from the Horror class with Sarah, Paul, John & Brett that we would get LBLs for our short stories, but I do understand that is more difficult when you've got one teacher for a four week intensive, unlike the four teachers we had for the horror class.
- perhaps a minimum requirement suggestion for doing the class. It was aimed at intermediate level writers, but I found some very new writers in the class, who would have benefited from perhaps taking one of the litreactor short story or novel building block classes, before a genre class.
Suzy's Dialogue class was just fucking amazing. She has this energy that just translates so well online; I can't explain it. In two weeks, those lectures and discussions with her changed my writing. She has a way of explaining concepts that are presented in the Chuck essays that just resonated with me. I didn't do the tele-conference because I was in transit, but I wish I had so I could listen to everyone's lovely accents!
I also did Taylor's Grammar and Usage class at the same time as I did Suzy's class. It was a difficult class because of the subject matter. It's dry, but Taylor makes it as interesting as you can make grammar. Her lectures have been really useful, and I've been going back to them when I've been editing stories for Parable Press. Not only that, she's been really lovely and answered my questions when I've messaged her with specific grammar questions.
^Jess just communicated everything I wanted to say about those two classes in a much more succinct way.
^^ You lucked out with your group, too. Mine was pretty interactive and I got to read some pretty awesome manuscripts (the scientist vampire, for example!).
As far as shorter vs longer - if you can find instructors maybe willing to craft courses to fit both needs and periodically offer them, you might find that sweet spot for consumers. People who have the money vs people who don't have the money and people who want a longer course vs people who don't want to commit as long.
When I take the classes in Boston, I'll go through their semester catalog and think, "Oh, I'm free this Saturday, I'm going to take the 6 hr class on Magical Realism" which is relatively inexpensive or I wanted some help on my novel so I'm taking a full on 10 week course.
I will say, I like the differences between online learning and in-person. My experiences in the flesh and through LitReactor have both been very beneficial. The best part about the classes here is just having the lectures, feedback, discussions to go back to and review when you need it. That's a very nice perk.
The best part about the classes here is just having the lectures, feedback, discussions to go back to and review when you need it.
This is so true. I've set a schedule up for myself for the next month to "redo" all my LitReactor classes. It's just so convenient, particularly given I'm a nomad and I can't do anything that requires commitment to being physically present.
I am in Jon's class now and am benefiting from it and enjoying it. However, when I first started and learned I could only post one story -- many two as a rewrite -- I was kind of thinking it wouldn't be worth my money. There are 17 people in the class. Jon is great and extremely responsive, and I've learned from the lectures and short story segments and class discussions. Everything right now seems to be helpful to me.
HOWEVER, if you are an active litreactor member you get a lot of the critique and feedback from good writers anyway. I think if I were not a litreactor member everything would have been more valuable to me. Feedback from other students is great, but Utah , Moon and Bryan Howie give me that on litreactor anyway.
I am enjoying the class now so I want to give positive vibes. But, maybe smaller so you could post more? If I take another the price would make a difference for me at this point in my life. But I do like the class.
Yes I totally get it now. It is working for me.
Hey, Rob
I'm looking for a modern essay course in 2013. An author I would love to work with in this genre is Roxane Gay. If you could make that happen, that would great, thanks.
Others are Matt Bell, Monica Drake, Chloe Caldwell, Karen Karbo,James Bernard Frost, Kevin Sampsell...just to name a few. Authors I would have a hard time saying no to working with again are Dr. Yuknavitch, SVS, and Vanessa Veselka.
LitReactor quickly established itself as THE place for online writing courses; that's what brought me here and has kept me. I mean, the smack talk in the forums and WAR are just icing on the cake.
Thanks for soliciting input.
Again, teachers are available and interactive on the class forums, and the phone conferences. Do you have any suggestions on how to improve those things?
And I've not taken a class, so I can't speak from experience on what does occur, only what I would want to occur if I were going to drop the money.
I have no idea what the contract for the instructors here includes. I work at a community college, and I know that our online-only professors are required to log in X number of hours in the blackboard forums. That's all I could suggest there. If the instructors are actively participating in conversations, that is all I could really expect. Bouncing things around with other students is fine, but I'm paying (hypothetically) for the teacher. Phone conferences sound like a great idea.
FYI - Books and Booze did an interview with Jon Gingerich recently and I'm actually itching to take a class with him now. He was great and really knowledgeable. Just from our short conversations I would recommend him.
I would cry with happiness if Margaret Atwood could give a literary speculative fiction class. But from what I can tell, she's not as popular with American readers as she is with Australian and Canadian readers.
You shouldn't be afraid to consider asking Jon to teach a different type of class, either. I'd most likely sign up for another of his classes if I have the scratch.
And I know Amy Hempel respectfully declined - but if you were able to lure her and maybe charged a bit more, I'd pony up.
@Rob - No one seems to have read her books when I mention her. Let's blame that as a Florida specific issue, then. ;)
I don't think you would have any problem filling a class led by Roxane Gay - I'm going to ask her if she'd be down just for the hell of it because she already knows I want to have her literary babies.
^ Good point about shutting the barn door after the horses are out, Rob.
I'm waiting for Joe Lansdale to teach a class. Or anyone Southern, Tom Franklin or Ron Rash or someone of that ilk.
Yeah Gingerich's class looks great. Glad to hear that it's actually that awesome.
I'm not suggesting Jon scrap his current class, it's great. I'm only suggesting if he had the time/desire to add a different course, I think that'd be a good thing for those of us who've already taken his first class and appreciate his teaching style.
I've only taken two classes, both with the same instructor, so I can't speak much for how other instructors do things--but both classes with Lidia were great, lots of interaction from the instructor and great mind opening lectures and discussions. It definitely comes back to participation though. In my first class every one in my "group" dropped out. That sucked. I don't know how that can be helped other than possibly laying out the average time commitment for the course? I realize that is very different for each individual, but if someone knew they should expect 4 hours a week minimum perhaps they would fare better than assuming they had the time when they didn't?
Hi Rob,
I took (and loved) The First 50 Pages with Eric in 2012. I really enjoyed it and learned a lot. He did an amazing job of encouraging everyone to crit eachother. Also, his lectures were terrific and I feel I learned a lot. I loved the experience so much that I've signed up for the Feb class with Many Hubbard.
That being said, I'd almost like to see the classes offered on a more regular schedule. I can't take the Urban Fantasy class this go round but am interested. I'm worried that the class wont be taught again. Is there anyway to hold the classes more regularly?
I am truly enjoying Jon's class. As skeptical as I was to start, I'm really benefiting from it. Two more weeks to go and I look forward each day to see what has developed. I don't think I would change it. I will probably take another. I was wrong at first to be upset to only post one or two stories. It offers more than critique of your own stories.
That being said, I'd almost like to see the classes offered on a more regular schedule. I can't take the Urban Fantasy class this go round but am interested. I'm worried that the class wont be taught again. Is there anyway to hold the classes more regularly?
I was just thinking this today. I saved up specifically for Averil's erotic writing class that starts in a month, but now I might not be able to do the class because of internet access issues at that time. Which utterly blows if it doesn't get held again!
I want the teacher to be involved in the message boards. I want to pick their brain, throw out ideas, discuss different ways of doing exactly what they are teaching, etc. I want interaction. I want the teacher to be as enthusiastic as the most enthusiastic student.
I agree with Bryan Howie big time here. The only time a student is ever engaged is when the teacher is engaging.
I just enrolled for my first class, so here are some notes prior to going in. I'll try to respond after the class is over, too.
What kinds of classes do you want to see?
Well, I'm signed up for the YA novel class with Mandy Hubbard, and I bought it because I realized as I got deeper into my manuscript that it worked better for that genre and just happened to have the money left over from a student loan and begged for help from my parents. Seriously. It was a total fucking fluke.
What would I like to see? It was mentioned above, but I'd kill for a chance to see classes more regularly. Lidia Y.'s class are my white whale in this situation. Whenever they're offered, I don't have the money, and when they aren't offered, I do have the money. One suggestion that may or may not work, because instructors are people and can't promise they'll ever have the time to teach again, is to allow people to pre-order a class. It would only work for people like me, who don't have jobs or moving or kids to worry about and could take a class on a whim, but it could be an available option if a professor feels that they can manage a class soon in the future.
And, like everyone else, I want to see cheaper classes. I could whine for hours about how I don't have $120 to spend on a bargain-cheap class like Patrick's, but I know that this is a very age-specific issue and a very cliched one at that (starving college student, anyone?) but I'm bitchy enough to know that you all care specifically about me and no one else.
What would you hope to get out of a class?
Experience and knowledge. I want to be a better writer, have a better understanding of what I'm doing, and gain valuable insight.
Have you ever gone to sign up for a class and something made you decide not to?
Actually, that did happen once. I don't want to name the class for reasons you'll understand, but reading testimonials for one actually turned me off because a writer I don't like specifically named the class as the reason she wrote the way she did. Again, though, that's person-specific. I don't recognize most names on the testimonials and very, very rarely do I read them.
---
Can I ask the people who are talking about poor critique groups something? I've noticed that many, many people who don't frequent the workshop or the boards are the ones signing up for classes, and now I'm worried. I don't know what format Mandy H.'s class will take, but I was going in expecting quality similar to the workshop here and now I'm a little hesitant. What was the ratio in your class for quality reviews and shitty reviews? Knowing that people have had major issues with that is making me question whether I want to sign up for more classes.
@Courtney, be consoled! Kara gives each class feedback parameters and if you have one good reviewer in the class, the others tend to take their lead. I still workshop with 3 writers I met in my first class here over a year ago, and none of them frequent the boards or the workshop part of the site.
You don't tend to get LBL's from everyone in the classes, but for first drafts, those can be more of a source of frustration than anything else.
For every crappy review I've ever received in a class, I've had at least one valuable one, so it definitely balances out. Congrats on pulling the trigger!
As to this,
...but reading testimonials for one actually turned me off because a writer I don't like specifically named the class as the reason she wrote the way she did...
I'd just say feck it. If a writer you don't like on a personal level found value in a class or from an instructor, that has no weight as to how and what you will do with the same lectures and content.
@Court Most classes I took were about half-half people who frequented the site and people who signed up specifically for the class. I always got decent reviews, sometimes better than in the workshop, I can only guess that's because since we shared interest in the class subject more reviewers understood what style I was going for. Christa Faust's class, the general style of reviews by the students seemed to be blunt, brief but not holding back in what really sucked about a piece. All those students, though, were very advanced in skill and took their work seriously. Even with some rough reviews it paid off to be around people with high talent. I was immersed with writers ridiculously better than me in SGJ's class too, but everyone there pretty much knew each other and gave reviews with good depth. But if you don't get in that sort of situation and the reviews aren't what you like, take the lead and show by example. Ask questions, keep them talking.
Thanks for the responses, guys! I feel a lot better now and I'm definitely relieved.
The testimonial was definitely a petty thing to step away from a class for, but I didn't want to get myself into something I couldn't actually put to use. That doesn't detract from the class' value, because I know of people who love both the instructor and the student who turned me off. It just wasn't my style, and it made me aware that the class probably wouldn't be geared towards my style, either.
@Rob It has been fantastic having so much time in advance to prepare, I guess (in my mind) pre-ordering would work like a deposit. The business side of things would be tricky, though, like when to pay the instructor and, if not at time of deposit, making sure LR has enough cash on hand to make that payment up.
Knowing Lidia's next class date means I can start saving, so thank you. I know it would be ridiculous to put a banner up for her class already, but have you thought about maybe a class catalog calendar in the class tab? Just something to give everyone a long heads-up?
I need to start saving up. I want to take Lidia's class, too.
That would be a great idea, Rob. And Howie, I'd kill to take a class with you.
Yay Lidia! I've been saving up for months and months waiting for Lidia to teach another class, and the fact that Courtney and Howie will be in the workshop doing critiques just made it even better.
For the record this will be my first class.