TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 1:44pm

Hiya. I'm not a writer, I'm someone that creates a number of things for his own giggles. I've realized recently that I may have some marketable skill in writing and, what the hell, I'll look into whether or not I can make money on this.

That said, I don't know where to start. SO, I'm hoping there's a thingy around here- a page, a topic, something- where someone's gone into how to start trying to do this for the big money bucks I know all writers are pulling down. How does one "submit" a "story," and... who the hell is paying money for stories anyway?

Please give me an beginner's guide to your hard-won knowledge so I can become your direct competition in as few steps as possible, thanks so much.

Brandon's picture
Brandon from KCMO is reading Made to Break December 18, 2012 - 1:50pm

Read this.

Holler with follow-up questions.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 2:24pm

Hmm... thanks sir! I, uh... I fear I'm coming at this from more of an absolute newcomer's position and that most of that didn't make sense to me. To illustrate:

Let’s say that you have three stories ready: would you rather publish at Word Riot three times or split them between Word Riot, The Nervous Breakdown, and Caketrain?

I have never heard of these things. 

Also, the learn to publish bit didn't tell me anything about the actual steps one takes in publishing anything. Do you email people something, is there a protocol, etc...?

One thing I learned: "...if you have a Duotrope account (which all of you should)..." Ahah, I have a step! 1. Find a place called Duotrope, get account. Shall do.

JEFFREY GRANT BARR's picture
JEFFREY GRANT BARR from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my life December 18, 2012 - 2:35pm

Bummer for you tom - Duotrope goes paid on Jan. 1. If you plan on submitting a lot of shorts etc, it's invaluable (though there is some debate about that).

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 2:35pm

Yeah, this was a poorly timed career shift, haha. It's relatively cheap though.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 2:38pm

Would anyone mind giving me a link to their profile so I can get what's cool to say about one's self and what's not? All I have under my belt for accomplishments is that my story won round 2 of WAR over here in the BAS thread. After considering that, briefly, I got embarrassed for myself.

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts December 18, 2012 - 2:58pm

Tom, once you find publication markets that publish the kind of stories you write, go to each of their websites and find the "Submissions Guidelines" and those tell you how to submit your stories to them, usually through email. Every place may have a different submissions process, so it's good to pay attention and send them exactly what they ask for.

There's an article here by Richard Thomas about what those emails should generally look like.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 3:03pm

Annnnd how does one find publication markets? Does that just mean broad genres?

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 3:04pm

Double posting the night away.

Ben Freeman's picture
Ben Freeman from Charlottesville, Virginia is reading everything I can December 18, 2012 - 3:19pm

Annnnd how does one find publication markets? Does that just mean broad genres?

This is one of the things duotrope is for.

Brandon's picture
Brandon from KCMO is reading Made to Break December 18, 2012 - 3:24pm

Tom, do you have a story that you think is ready?

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts December 18, 2012 - 3:29pm

Publication markets = magazines, journals, anthologies, websites. Check out Duotrope immediately, since you've still got a couple days to use their search engine. You can search by genre, pay scale, etc. There are other places to find out about places as well, for me other than doing searches like on Duotrope the best way I find new publications is just keeping track of writers I like and seeing where they've published, or talking to people here about where they are submitting. I keep bookmarks of most of the publications I'm interested in, organized by genre and then broken into tiers; the top paying markets, the more prestigious markets, and then just generally cool markets that I like.

I haven't read enough of your stuff to remember exactly your style of fiction or any particular genre, but if there's a certain style you're going for maybe I can give a you a quick list of places to check out. I know Richard Thomas said he's putting an article here with his huge 300+ list of markets he likes at some point, so keep an eye out for that too.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 3:30pm

Just three finished and ready ones, so far, but yeah. I've added them as pieces to Duotrope and am starting to consider popping around and submitting one to a number of places tonight.

 

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 3:36pm

Just now I did a bit of math on one submission thingy that was listed as a professional payment, 5 cents a word. At 1,528 words, one of my stories works out to 76 bucks. Are people really selling short stories for 76 bucks? What are the rights like, is there exclusivity? Can I sell the same story for 76 bucks to multiple markets at the same time, or do they have some sort of exclusivity paperwork?

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts December 18, 2012 - 3:50pm

$.05/word is the pro rate, pretty much the best you can hope for outside of contests and lucky instances. Most places don't pay pro rate if they pay at all, even some well-known places that you'd want your name in. Each place is different, usually you are committing to First Electronic Rights or First Print Rights, and those commonly say that they should be the only place to publish that piece for a year, or two, or whatever.

Yeah, there's no real money going on in fiction.

JEFFREY GRANT BARR's picture
JEFFREY GRANT BARR from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my life December 18, 2012 - 4:01pm

/watches Tom's dreams crumble to dust

 

Sorry Tom. Look on the bright side: once you sell a couple dozen or so high profile stories, you can get a book deal and make roughly the same money a mid-level project manager at a small company makes! Won't that be something!

All of a sudden, I don't feel much like writing.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 4:05pm

If it's that hopeless, why does anyone do this? Is spending hours on something that's going to net you thirty bucks, if you're lucky enough to be chosen to spend hours making thirty bucks, rewarding? What's the endgame? Is this just a hobby that people pick up a little extra with?

Also, why must everything I'm good at pay dick? I'm tired of looking down moneymaking avenues and seeing dried corpses and thorned brambles with dying people ensnared on them, saying "it's a long hard climb to the top, but if you're good enough and if you put in your time, you too can do almost as well as your average entry-level officeworker." I'M GOOD AT STUFF, SOMEONE PAY ME TO DO THAT STUFF. DAMMIT.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 4:08pm

Sorry Tom. Look on the bright side: once you sell a couple dozen or so high profile stories, you can get a book deal and make roughly the same money a mid-level project manager at a small company makes! Won't that be something!

Pretty much. I've mentioned a few times that I'm in a high profile successful recognized band, and what I discovered on my way to that point is that your big-name bands- your bands you get excited about seeing and would get completely starstruck over- have members that are making what a supervisor makes at a fast food joint, just without those pesky benefits to weigh you down.

 

JEFFREY GRANT BARR's picture
JEFFREY GRANT BARR from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my life December 18, 2012 - 4:09pm

Doing what you love and suffering for it is what makes you a mensch. I do this because I love to write. I can't publish shit because I'm a shitty writer, but I'm working on it. I would love to be able to support my family with with it - I don't know if I ever will, but that's a goal. I'm lucky to have multiple goals - one of the others is to write cool software and give my kids the kind of upbringing I didn't get, so it works out well for me. The rest of you are probably fucked though. Merry Christmas!

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts December 18, 2012 - 4:11pm

If you publish 4 or 5 5k word stories a week at pro rate, you'd be doing pretty damn well. Just be better. Though, fact, freelancing non-fiction pays heaps more, around the same kinda money you'd make as a fry cook.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 4:17pm

I am fucking bummed. I'm tired of being discouraged. It's all I've been for the better part of a decade now.

What's a good working rate of word output? I believe that 1,500 story took me an hour, but that's not a rate I could keep up with often. 4, 5k word stories a week are plausible for some, then?

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 4:19pm

Follow-up question. If you're really making so little per short story at BEST, why do these "markets" have any sort of hoops at all? How dare you have submission guidelines for me just so I can make a pittance. If you want the story, YOU find it and toss me a couple of silvers. If not, it's not worth my time to trace you down and fill out a submission email with all the details you request. Because fuck you. 

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 4:22pm

Don't mind me, I'm working things out here that have been rooted in all the careers I've muddled with. Ass garbage terribleness hell.

sean of the dead's picture
sean of the dead from Madisonville, KY is reading Peckerwood, by Jed Ayres December 18, 2012 - 4:25pm

If it's that hopeless, why does anyone do this? Is spending hours on something that's going to net you thirty bucks, if you're lucky enough to be chosen to spend hours making thirty bucks, rewarding? What's the endgame? Is this just a hobby that people pick up a little extra with?

Aren't you in a band?  

case closed.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 4:29pm

Yeah, but that's my "I do this because I like it," like Jeffrey, above. I'm going to keep doing it until it's a chore or an impediment and then I'm out. Besides, I get to be famous for a few nights a month before going back to my hovel. That's kinda rewarding. You writing-folks are missing that, being able to watch your audience absorb your works and give themselves over to it. 

I'm just mentioning it to rub it in for all of writing, since writing pooped in my orange juice tonight.

JEFFREY GRANT BARR's picture
JEFFREY GRANT BARR from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my life December 18, 2012 - 4:30pm

I know right? I mean, if there is one thing with a poorer outlook than writer - it's got to be music.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 4:31pm

I'd say artist but after jumping about to music and writing, art's looking pretty good again. I was failing at it, but I was failing to a lesser extent than this.

 

OtisTheBulldog's picture
OtisTheBulldog from Somerville, MA is reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz December 18, 2012 - 4:34pm

Tom - as a fellow musician - there's that thing about not quitting your day job. We pursue creative interests because we're passionate, not because of the money.

Me, like anyone, I'd love to support myself by writing. I'm realistic that it is very unlikely to happen. But I'm still pursuing a life in that direction. And once you get published, maybe a degree, there are other ways to make money than just pumping out fiction. I have a friend who has an MFA in poetry. He works for a pretty big corp putting economic terms into digestible reads for intra-company paperwork. Prior to that, he'd never takem an economic class. He just be good with the words. He makes bank. He writes his poetry on his time. Writes his music and busks in Boston on his time.

But yeah, it's a grinders game. I think the key is to find ways to support yourself so you don't hate yourself and still have the energy for your creative outlets. If you can start to make money off it, awesome. If not, oh well. You have to have that attitude. You're doing it for the love of it, not the money. And at the same time, you hold on to that hope/dream that the money might come. Because it does for some people.

I saw advice from Neil Gaiman, it was something along the lines of creating things to be proud of. He said when he chased the money, he often felt disappointed and bitter. But if he created things he was proud of, then at the very least, he had that.

Advice to live by.

kward's picture
kward from Alberta is reading Off To Be the Wizard December 18, 2012 - 9:42pm

From a purely making-money standpoint...Tom, why not follow the JA Konrath model? The Newbie Guide to Publishing guy.

If you want to make money at writing, put out a ten part fictional series of whatever length as ten separate ebook novellas on Amazon's Kindle site, then do it again. And again. Write them to the best of your ability. Write them with love. Check 'em for typos. Slap an attractive cover on it - format it for Amazon. Fire it off...

Charge 99 cents for each part.

When someone in the great cyber nether-world discovers Part 6 of your series floating amongst the millions of ebooks on Amazon, they'll come to realize there's another 9 parts out there they'd like to read and will pay for the pleasure. Next thing you know they write positive reviews on all ten parts - and then start in on your next ten-parter. Then someone else happens along based on those good reviews, and does the same thing - bam, more sales, more positive reviews. And so on. And so on.

Okay, so you might not become a millionaire, but it might get you paid as much as you'd be paid doing something you hate - and with a 30% royalty rate no less (70% if you charge more than 99 cents). Hell, you don't even have to edit your work all that much; just ask Amanda Hocking.

*Bracing for the purist hate I'm surely about to receive.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 18, 2012 - 9:54pm

Sounds good to me. I'm all for serial fiction.

I've been considering putting out an anthology of my short stories. I know I said I have three, but I have a number of others that need editing / finishing, two of which should be around 10,000 words. 4 bucks on Amazon or something. I have 25,000 fans on FB, for the band, and I don't mind schilling to them. Not that they're the types to own Kindles.

kward's picture
kward from Alberta is reading Off To Be the Wizard December 18, 2012 - 10:04pm

Tom, I believe you can also read your amazon download on your laptop or tablet as well. Not sure on that.

25,000 fans? Golden opportunity. Built in audience. Set up a Kindle Direct Publishing account, get some of covers for your stories, and sell each of them separately. 99 cents for shorts, something more for longer works. No gatekeepers, no rejection letters, just money in your pocket.

While you're at it, feel free to send all those fawning eyeballs to my piece of crap first stab at beginning a sci-fi series "Bloodline: Prelude to the Cannibal Collapse". Yes, it's bad...but it's also 99 cents. I wrote it, one draft, that's it - e-published it. I make nothing from it, but that's because that's not how Amazon works. To make money there, you have to have a bunch of things published...you make money by way of the "long tail".

You could be sitting on your solution to getting away from doing something you dislike for a living - pretty cool.

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks December 18, 2012 - 11:42pm

Nobody's crushing anyone's dream around here. Yes, it's hard, and yes, it's time-consuming, but it's also rewarding, fulfilling, and fucking fun to write. None of us would be here if we didn't agree with that. We all know it's not technically realistic to write for a living, but damned if I'm not going to do it for life.

Here's the thing: there's definitely not money in selling short stories. Once you have enough credits, are good enough, and know enough about submitting, you can probably make about a hundred bucks a week selling your stories... but that'll be years from now. Don't let that stop you. Do a pyramid style submission schedule: get a huge number of stories published on free sites, then half that on token payment (less than 1 cent per word, usually a lump sum like five dollars per page or something similar), then half of that on semi-pro (1 cent to 4.9 cents per word), then turn the pyramid over and start submitting to pro markets.

I've noticed that you talk a lot about music in general, not just specific to your band, too. Someone already mentioned freelance non-fiction; why not look for a job writing reviews? It's not fiction writing, and not nearly as fun (to me), but if you have a passion for it, why not? Find a magazine geared towards your genre (and honestly, I usually see harder rock reviews alongside horror and genre magazines, not sure why) and then start seeing if anyone is looking for applicants. Or, just write a bunch of fucking reviews and submit.

Don't let this shit get you down. Kward is right, there's the serial idea. A huge market exists for erotica short stories, which can be published as books on Amazon. A really popular style of selling is to offer the first for free and the rest (be it sequels or similar tastes) for .99, then 1.99, then 2.99 for the rest.

There are dozens of ways around "the system." Make enough money writing erotica to support you while you write the Great American Novel, or go shovel shit for a living and write at night. Just don't stop writing, and don't get discouraged.

A note about submissions: yes, it's bullshit that they ask so much. I'm not joking, a magazine literally said "put Sparkle Pony beneath your contact info to prove you read this page." I haven't seen that shit since, like, MySpace. Anyway, it can be tough and boring and take hours, but the more you submit, the more likely you are to get paid.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 19, 2012 - 8:27am

why not look for a job writing reviews?

A fine idea, but for my mindblowing fickleness. I just can't appreciate some genius. I can listen to widely-praised albums of the year and hear nothing but blech. It wouldn't be fair.

I could easily write other sorts of music articles- life on the road, interviews, all that. That occurred to me just yesterday. I might give it a try, but if the rate is 5 cents a word at best, I'll just keep doing art.

I wish writing were a person talking to me at a party, and saying "yeah, you should come over, we'll hang out!" I'm into it, art hasn't been returning my calls. Where's your place, writing? "It's in the left-hand corner of the dumpster behind the Dairy Que-" and I place my palm on writing's face and push him back into the rose bush at his back. While he's lying there, scratched and baffled, I upend the contents of my Dixie plate full of greasy party food on his floppy, stylish hairdo. I turn and stalk away. Over there, art notices the commotion and smiles at me like she used to. I'll give her a call later. For now, I'm busy storming out of the party.

Carly Berg's picture
Carly Berg from USA is reading Story Prompts That Work by Carly Berg is now available at Amazon December 19, 2012 - 4:25pm

Tom, my opinion is that the days when someone could make a good living writing short stories are long gone. That was in the time of Dorothy Parker and F. Scott Fitzgerald. I guess it's because of all the competing entertainment now. There is more supply than than demand.

But that's not the magazines' fault, that comes from the paying/reading public. Most of the publishers aren't taking advantage, they just don't make any money and do it "for the love" themselves. Even the ones that pay are usually more an honor payment than anything that pays bills. Like with the rest of the arts, we do it because we're crazy it's fun.

From what I hear, non-fiction is a different animal. "Professional pay" is five cents a word for fiction (lolol?). Times that by ten or twenty (?) for nonfiction. Also, not sure how reliable this is, but I heard that 90% of books sold are nonfiction. There's a huge paying market there (excluding memoirs). If making money with writing was my priority, I'd look that way.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 19, 2012 - 10:46am

90% of books sold are nonfiction?? Lotta boring people out there.

 

Carly Berg's picture
Carly Berg from USA is reading Story Prompts That Work by Carly Berg is now available at Amazon December 19, 2012 - 10:47am

LOL! I guess it depends on what they're trying to learn. :P

Jack Campbell Jr.'s picture
Jack Campbell Jr. from Lawrence, KS is reading American Rust by Phillipp Meyer December 19, 2012 - 1:41pm

85% of them are Dummies books.

dufrescm's picture
dufrescm from Wisconsin is reading Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep December 19, 2012 - 2:08pm

Tom, it's not all submissions and self-publishing.  Sometimes you just gotta look in a different direction.  For example, I get paid to write (on a contract basis) for Wizards of the Coast.  I work evenings and weekends on my schedule, for about 7 or 8 months out of the year, and what I get paid is based on accepted submissions.  The better I write = the more money I make.  It's certainly not enough to live on, but it's a nice supplement.  Plus I get bragging rights when I play cards with my friends and get to say "I wrote that" or "I named that card".  AND I get to feel like I'm a professional writer, not just a struggling amateur.  AND I get to put that on my resume when I send that out looking for more contract work, or something like that.  AND I've got a foot in the door, in case I ever had enough time/energy/skill/confidence to branch into other things that they publish, like D&D novels or stuff like that.  

 

My point is not to say how awesome that job is (even though it really is the bee's knees).  My point is: don't get discouraged by the difficulty of the "normal" route.  Just find an alternate route to writing for a living.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated December 19, 2012 - 2:32pm

I think to a certain extent it almost works in reverse; doing stuff for free doesn't help when you are just starting and there is no old product for people to go buy. Once you have a books/short stories/whatever that people can buy it might be worth it.

@ Tom also the 76 bucks thing doesn't have to be all you make off it. There are reprints, and anthologies and what not. Later if you get more well known collections of your work. It isn't a huge amount, but it can bring in dribs and drabs for quite a while.

JEFFREY GRANT BARR's picture
JEFFREY GRANT BARR from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my life December 19, 2012 - 2:38pm

Dufrescm you write magic cards? That is the coolest thing I've heard all day! I havent played seriously  in a couple years other than the occasional fun draft, but man that has got to be my favorite game ever. You're the man!

dufrescm's picture
dufrescm from Wisconsin is reading Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep December 19, 2012 - 2:44pm

@ Jeffrey: I've been writing names and flavor text for about 6 years now (I started with Planar Chaos).   I got that gig by sending and email to Matt Cavotta (who was writing the flavor of Magic articles on their website back then).  It was a terrible attempt at a "query letter", but he gave me a shot, and it worked out.  Aside from all of the other cool stuff the job gives me, I've learned how to be very concise when I need to be - those cards don't leave much room for text, most of the time.  Also, I am a woman ;)

dufrescm's picture
dufrescm from Wisconsin is reading Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep December 19, 2012 - 3:07pm

I just finished reading one of the many awesome Chuck Palahniuk essays on this site, and it ended with: "If nothing else, it’s important to see that your goal is something done by human beings no smarter or stronger or more anything than yourself.  Keep telling yourself:  “If that horse’s ass can write a book and find a publisher, then it should be easy for me…”, which seemed like pretty good advice, considering the discussion we're having  here.  :D

JEFFREY GRANT BARR's picture
JEFFREY GRANT BARR from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my life December 19, 2012 - 5:01pm

They let girls write magic cards???

*burns all cards*

Carly Berg's picture
Carly Berg from USA is reading Story Prompts That Work by Carly Berg is now available at Amazon December 20, 2012 - 3:17pm

To me, the money question brings up another question. Who's crazier, the ones who only do what they get paid for or the ones who do what they enjoy even if they don't get paid?

Not that I have an answer or anything...

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones December 20, 2012 - 6:37pm

Dollars is how the man holds you down.

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 20, 2012 - 6:43pm

Interestingly, dollars is also how anyone else does anything.

kward's picture
kward from Alberta is reading Off To Be the Wizard December 20, 2012 - 10:03pm

True that, Tom!

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated December 20, 2012 - 10:40pm

Wouldn't it be crazy to pass up money we could get for something we'd probably do anyway? Money is how we show each other something has value, and nothing wrong with wanting your writing to be something people value.

Devon Robbins's picture
Devon Robbins from Utah is reading The Least Of My Scars by Stephen Graham Jones December 21, 2012 - 6:47am

I might give it a try, but if the rate is 5 cents a word at best, I'll just keep doing art.

 

I'm not saying that you don't need money. The approach seemed a little jaded to me. I think you should participate in the arts for the arts. I'm a fan of being genuine. Are you a writer, or a money maker?

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters December 21, 2012 - 7:33am

The approach seemed a little jaded to me. I think you should participate in the arts for the arts. I'm a fan of being genuine. Are you a writer, or a money maker? 

I couldn't agree more. 

TomMartinArt's picture
TomMartinArt from Amherst, MA December 21, 2012 - 8:12am

I'm not saying that you don't need money. The approach seemed a little jaded to me. I think you should participate in the arts for the arts. I'm a fan of being genuine. Are you a writer, or a money maker?

I couldn't agree more.

Let's step back and calibrate the discussion a bit. I'm not a writer, I'm a creator. I make things. I can create illustrations, paintings, music, stories, lyrics, poetry and mere concepts. Almost anything. I suck at sculpture and that's about it. This isn't bragging, it's necessary to lead to my next point- I don't feel a need to do any one of these things more than the others. If one takes over, that's fine. I'm playing around with my talents, playing whac-a-mole with my abilities... and yes, I want to make money with at least one of them. I'm dead poor. While I'm good at stuff, I'm awful at business and paperwork and haven't managed my freelance art career well. Writing, for a time, looked like a good candidate for me to step into. Make make make, sell and move on. 

So your short answer is that I'm looking to exploit one of my talents to make a living and if writing isn't a moneymaker, I'm going back to giving writing the time of day twice a year or so.