General Discussion : It's the "I'm NOT Going To Sleep" thread again....

I'm sorry, I'm lost.  Have we decided that it is or isn't silly that women get to vote.  We jumped right past that and moved to the economic discussion before I got answers.

Speaking on behalf of that nice group of white guys, you're welcome.

If you are from a poor rural area, there is no college to walk in to. Maybe a technical college. We need mechanics to work on the tractors. Hell, my parents still don't own a computer and you couldn't get anything but 56K in the town till a couple years ago. In order to use a cell phone, you have to stand on the porch so that you can get one bar.

The guidance counselor was no real help. It was a job for the wrestling coach to have the rest of the year.

I'm not saying it was impossible. Obviously, it wasn't. But it is a lot bigger challenge to get out of a place that that than people think. For one thing, you have very little basis to think you can.

Personally, I thought I was going to go to Florida and draw cartoons for Disney, which is probably the only reason I got out of there at all.

Boone should really change the name of this thread. 

Anyone else remember Panda Porn feat. Balls of Steel? It feels like this is part two. 

Also a community college in every county of VA. 

Most of the issues men and women face are from sociological factors.  Feminism hasn't made men "weaker".  What really is the standard definition of being a "man" in the first place?  What is this weakess?  Think what you like, but men still have more opportunities in life than women do. 

Whether or not it was ever intentionally done, a lot of white males feel they are constantly villified. They are reminded every day in the media that they are the bad guys who hold everyone else down, even the ones who never had any power and will never have any power. They feel guilt for things they never did.

I'm not exactly sure where white males are villified in the media. In every show, every commercial, they're the ones on top. You'll never see a show with Africian Americans all enjoying a beer at a rager with a bunch of hot chicks.  If you look at all the commercials aimed at men, the theme is always about being young and carefree and having whatever you want.

Today's culture is all about consumerism, and the unhappy people are programmed to be the ones who can't buy more shit.  I think the real guilt people have these days (men and women) is over the things they think they deserve.

I realize that a lot of middle-aged men are the ones who feel like ass most of the time, because culture is dominated by youth, and by the time you're fifty you're pretty much irrelevent.  My dad used to own a camera store, but once that went out of business he had a difficult time going through various retail jobs because there was literally no workplace that really wanted a forty-five year-old man.  My dad ended up in landscaping for a bit, but now he's a janitor.  You lose your opportunites when you get older.

why the argument is being put forth that white men are not just as capable as anyone else of doing this.

And here you've hit it on the head, or are at least getting close.  Because what men in this country experience isn't so much an oppression or disadvantage as it is a vast malaise.  It is very difficult to perceive the existence of something like that in one's own life, much less in society in general.  Which, of course, makes it difficult to fix.

Now, should this conversation follow its natural course, eventually we would arrive at the realization that we are all in the same boat, no matter which side of it we happen to sit.  We would talk about how we all allow money and our perceptions of illusion as necessity to govern our lives and restrict us all to the life courses and styles we have fallen into.  How we all think of cable tv and air conditioning to be both inalienable rights and absolute necessities for existence, and let HGTV tell us what kinds of homes we should live in.

But that would be way more boring than talking about who is more oppressed.

There are a lot of commercials where married men appear as whipped dogs.  I don't think it's more common than the commercials where single men run around chasing giggling girls, but they're there.  Maybe not in Canada.

There are a lot of commercials where married men appear as whipped dogs."

ALOT!

"Also, there seem to be lots of community colleges in KS that people could reasonablly get to.  I admit, the western end looks a but more sparse, but not impossible by any means."

I am actually from Iowa. I came to Kansas with my ex-wife because she wanted to get a master's degree. When we got divorced, I stayed.

There are community colleges in Iowa, and there a lot of private colleges connected with different religious denominations. It's like someone dropped a bunch of teachers and preachers in Iowa and told them to entertain themselves.

But it is one thing to have them there, and another to think of them as an option.

If it hadn't been for scholarships I got for art, jazz band, theater, and academics, I never would have made it through community college. I didn't learn anything about loans until I was there. College loans have been my best friend. Which is good, because I am going to know them for the rest of my life.

"I am going to know them for the rest of my life."

Me too.  Sometimes, like any good friend, they make me feel sick.

"I'm not exactly sure where white males are villified in the media. In every show, every commercial, they're the ones on top. You'll never see a show with Africian Americans all enjoying a beer at a rager with a bunch of hot chicks.  If you look at all the commercials aimed at men, the theme is always about being young and carefree and having whatever you want."

I think that is the basic issue. Most men will never have any of that. But that is the expectation we are given by the media. It doesn't do us any favors, expectations or image-wise.

It's back to that Palahniuk quote. The media tells me I should be a rich, good-looking movie star whom women desire. I am none of those things, so what is my value? That is part of the identity shift I am talking about. I think men are in search for a new identity.

"Me too.  Sometimes, like any good friend, they make me feel sick."

Tell me about it. I am at the beginning of a master's degree right now. My loans might outlive me.

The smart thing to do, is to not feel like your self worth comes from a tampax commerical."

Agreed, but it does happen

You're exactly right, Hopkins.

And a lot of modern feminism (apart from the deeper issues of abortion, rape, contraception) is about the way women are portrayed in media.  There's just no real way to shake off that sexual aspect.  I don't think it'll ever really go away.  It doesn't matter what you do as a woman, you still have to be a "woman", which is really just an object in the truest light.  Be a career woman, but look great in your power suit while you do it!  Be a stay at home mom, but look great while you're breast-feeding, and yet DON'T offend people with your breasts!  Whore.

is about the way women are portrayed in media."

Think about it, this is a male and female issue though. We're bombarded by stuff like that. Turn on the news, brown people are coming to get you, new virus, terrorist. Commercial, if you don't buy this they won't like you, if you don't get this you're not attractive. It never really ends. It's everywhere. Billboards, ball games, the radio, tv, internet. You can't help but internalize some of it.

The media portrayal of women is absolutely ridiculous. As much as I am bitching about being a man today, I can't imagine being a women, especially a teenage girl, in this media environment. There are so many unfair expectations placed upon them at an early age.

I dated a woman once whose 6 year old daughter came home crying one day because some other girl told her she was fat. (She wasn't.) We are giving body image problems to girls barely old enough for school.

"Sometimes I hope they do.  The best thing about working for a college right now, is that they will pay for my continuing education - which I am not taking advantage of right now (I'm the worst)."

The college I work at will pay for one class, so it will help. My public service position also helps because, at least right now, I can get my loans forgiven in ten years. I'm not holding my breath on that, though.

By the way, I want to apologize to everyone who had to read my posts today. I've noticed a ton of spelling errors, grammar mistakes, and outright missing words. My four year-old keeps getting in bed with me. I haven't slept a full night in a week. Apparently, my typing is suffering.

" I can get my loans forgiven in ten years"

I hope they keep this up.  They used to do it in KY for nurses, and they snatched that away in recent years.  Teachers still get it, for now. 

In order for our society to suceed in the world, I believe education has to be seen as a right and not a privledge, but that's a whole other can of worms.

The whole education system needs to be revamped if we open that can of worms. Our system is not preparing children for the world. It is about preparing them to take tests, and that is it. I  don't call that an actual education. I feel bad for the good teachers.

is to see a woman as an object to some extent.  I know not all guys harass women by making cat calls,"

Yeah. That is just ignorant people to begin with. The woman in my family would really go after me if I acted like that and then the men would have their turn. I'll never forget it. I was helping my father feed one day and he said "You're going to be a man soon."

"Yeah."

"If you ever lay a hand on a woman, you will be dealing with me. I never treated your mother like that and I don't expect you to do it."

I think alot of that catcalling, objectified, abusive behavior is learned which makes me mad when I see those commercials and shows and movies and such. For men without fathers, in some cases, that's all they have to go on.

@Jack- yeah the educational system needs to be totally redone. One size does not fit all. Ever. 

Is the term you are looking for social promotion? They don't want to keep a kid back because it will stunt them socially, so they assume they will catch him up in the next grade. I know there are a lot of kids these days who can't read but still make it through school. I've had college students who could barely write.

"If you ever lay a hand on a woman, you will be dealing with me. I never treated your mother like that and I don't expect you to do it."

Fear and respect of my father kept me out of more trouble than not. At first you don't do it because you don't want to get in trouble. Then one day you realize you've become the type of man your father wanted you to become.

So I can relate to that. Especially as a relatively new dad. It's extremely important to me that my son has me as a model of what a man is and not what he sees on television.

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