Boone Spaulding's picture
Boone Spaulding from Coldwater, Michigan, U.S.A. is reading Solarcide Presents: Nova Parade June 7, 2012 - 9:27pm

F*ck you, insomnia.

Chester Pane's picture
Chester Pane from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz June 7, 2012 - 11:23pm

Sweeeeeet! Fuck sleep. Sleep is for tired people!

Bekanator's picture
Bekanator from Kamloops, British Columbia is reading Ugly Girls by Lindsay Hunter June 7, 2012 - 11:25pm

I am tired.

Chester Pane's picture
Chester Pane from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz June 7, 2012 - 11:31pm

Sleep then but don't forget to dream.

PandaMask's picture
PandaMask from Los Angeles is reading More Than Human June 8, 2012 - 12:19am

Robots don't sleep...

JEFFREY GRANT BARR's picture
JEFFREY GRANT BARR from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my life June 8, 2012 - 12:40am

If you're having trouble sleeping, discover the wonder of ASMR. Google it; you're welcome.

I say fuck sleep: let that bastard catch me when I'm not looking.

J.Dulouz's picture
J.Dulouz from New England is reading The Sirens of Titan June 8, 2012 - 3:26am

Insomnia is your writing coach, Boone. He's sayin', "hey, better get going on that horror story, buddy!" He only wants to make you better. Do not upset Insomnia. He will kill you.

 

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 3:41am

I just got to work Boone. Keep me company and tell me tales of Michigan. 

Chris Davis's picture
Chris Davis from Indiana is reading A Feast of Snakes by Harry Crews June 8, 2012 - 3:49am

That sucks man, one of the only things worse than insomnia is when you have insomnia with an annoying song stuck in your head.  So try not to think of any awful songs that make these sleepless hours seem longer.  For example, don't think of a song like Walk the Dinosaur By:Was(not was).  That would be an awful song to get stuck in head. Especially that really catchy african chanting part were they are all like "boom boom shaka-laka-laka boom".

 

Jack Campbell Jr.'s picture
Jack Campbell Jr. from Lawrence, KS is reading American Rust by Phillipp Meyer June 8, 2012 - 4:05am

No tales of Michigan before bed. You don't want to be up all night with nightmares.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 4:06am

This is true. Detroit is a post apocalyptic wasteland. 

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters June 8, 2012 - 4:11am

I'm so fucking tired of the apocalypse.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 4:18am

Why? It's really the only conceivable way I can think of where it would be OK to be a male again. Not a caricature as shown in the media or something. I am tired of being put in a box thanks some bra burning young ladies in the 60s

Jack Campbell Jr.'s picture
Jack Campbell Jr. from Lawrence, KS is reading American Rust by Phillipp Meyer June 8, 2012 - 4:19am

Ha! That is awesome.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 4:32am

Awesome or not, it's the truth. 

Betty Friedan once said: 

"Each suburban wife struggled with it alone. As she made the beds, shopped for groceries, matched slipcover material, ate peanut butter sandwiches with her children, chauffered Cub Scouts and Brownies, lay beside her husband at night — she was afraid to ask even of herself the silent question — "Is this all?"

I think it can be reversed now, or made gender nuetral at the very least. I have posted this quote before, but it is still applicaple and describes this cookie cutter bull shit every man in this country faces. 

"Men weren't really the enemy - they were fellow victims suffering from an outmoded masculine mystique that made them feel unnecessarily inadequate when there were no bears to kill."

Being male doesn't mean being the womanizing assclown on the sitcoms or the bad ass action hero guy or even god-forbid the ultra sensitive coffee house hipster. It is something that men taught their sons and it has disappeared for all but a privileged few. Something that we have lost the more civilized we have gotten.

If anything our culture has twisted it. Men are now denigrated as poor fathers, lazy, stupid, caring only for football. Or even the enlightened male who cares for his mates emotional needs, only to be caste aside as too feminine and ruled over by their liberated wives. "Yes dear."

You women aren't the only ones suffering quietly, wondering about your place in the new modern world. We are suffering right along with you, only we had this thrust upon us. We had no bras to burn. So if we have to escape into nihilistic fantasies to feel the way our ancestors felt, then so be it. 

 

God damn. It's too early for this. I'm going to get coffee

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters June 8, 2012 - 5:05am

OMG - did you really make an argument that women's rights somehow impede your male-ness?  Maybe you just are not a strong enough man in general.

"We had no bras to burn"

Fuck you.  Men, certainly white men such as yourself, have had every opportunity to be whatever the fuck you want to be.  No one is oppressing you.  If you don't like what you are, that's on you.  Change it.  Generations of women did it, surely you can.

Yuo made this modern world, and now you wonder about your place in it?  Grow up.

 

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 5:08am

I made nothing. I was born and had choices other people made forced on me. I think alot of women's rights movements were fundamentally flawed to begin with. It should have been about true equality, but instead it just made men the enemy. 

Let's be honest too, the ONLY time things have ever been equal with gender is when every hand was needed just to survive. So yeah, let's retreat back into the fantasy. 

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters June 8, 2012 - 5:20am

You are obviously bitter with women over something.

Made men the enemy?  Again, this is so laughable.  We are taught that IN THE BEGINNING women ruined paradise.  Then we went on to be temptresses, whores, virgins, the weaker sex, the good little woman, the I Think I'll Keep Her, not smart enough to vote, not rational enough to make choices, to this day there are still men trying to regulate with laws the things I do with my own body.  Who made whom an enemy?  Classic.  Reminds of the "class warfare" bullshit.  It's so easy for the person with all the power to get offended when those with so little ask for their fair share.

You made no choices?  Then you are being passive and weak in your own life.  Go make a choice.  I would never say that I had choices forced on me.  Everything I have in this life was a choice I made.  If you want to go live in the woods without society, go do it.  No one is stopping you but yourself.  You wouldn't be the first modern person to do it. 

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 5:48am

You are obviously bitter with women over something."

 

Why do you keep accusing me of this? Don't project your own issues with men on me and more importantly don't thrust your tired victim mentality on me. Humans are shitty to each other, regardless of gender, race, socioeconomic status, religion or even sexual orientation. That's not new.

I made no choices in the same way women are chained to the workplace by their sisters. I know alot of women who would rather be the vilified stay-at-home Mom, but instead, thanks to the new reality and decisions made long before they were born, they can't afford to do so. Once upon a time a one  income home was more than doable, no longer. We're all slaves to the choices our ancestors made. 

You want a fair share, fine, I got no problem with it. I take offense when it is forced on people who don't want it or forces me to make decisions based on someone elses choices. I take offense when my gender is vilified because an asshole in the 50s decided to have his scotch and beat his wife. I got no problem living in the world, no matter how flawed, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. 

 

 

Chris Davis's picture
Chris Davis from Indiana is reading A Feast of Snakes by Harry Crews June 8, 2012 - 5:45am

@Matt - If you're one of the people in a heated discussion then who is going to post pictures of puppies to defuse it.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 5:49am

No, no- we're not attacking each other or destroying things. Just having a debate. I can't speak for her, but I enjoy a good debate every now and then and it has been many moons since her and I have had a good one. This isn't the destructive kind. 

If it'll make you feel better though. 

 

 

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters June 8, 2012 - 5:59am

“Don't project your own issues with men”
I don’t feel like I need to respond to this, because, come one.  I obviously love men.
“chained to the workplace by their sisters”
That is so over the top dramatic I can’t even look at it.
“vilified stay-at-home Mom”
Vilified by whom?  I have no idea what that means.  SAHMs are wonderful, and it’s a great choice.  If women want to do that, they can.  Budgets would be tight, but it can happen.  If you would like to direct any of these sad women to men, I will be happy to direct them to some amazing SAHMs who operate on a very tight budget, grow their own vegetables, make jam, and are living very happily.  Because they made the choice to live that life, and they accept everything that goes along with it.  It is ALL about choices.  IF you want something, you go get it, you make it happen.  You don’t cry about the past and what you can’t do.  And I’m serious, I know an amazing woman named Ariel that would be happy to talk to other women about her SAHM life and ways to make it easier and offer support.  I’m not a slave to anything.
You take offense to my fair share being forced on you?  That makes no sense.  When my fair share wasn’t a legal issue, I didn’t get it.  My right to vote had to be put in the law books to make it happen.  Sorry about it.  I’m not judging you based on some asshole in the 50s.  I am judging you based on the ridiculous things you are spouting off right now.
 

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 6:16am

I obviously love men."

I just choked on the absurdity of this. 

 

Budgets would be tight, but it can happen.".

Really? Clearly you've never spoken to an inner city parent. Some of whom work three jobs to make ends in meet. 

 

Also no, I don't want other people's problems to affect (effect or affect?)  me.I am saying that... Wait. No. I'm getting bored with this argument and losing my train of thought. Someone else have anything else we can fight about?

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters June 8, 2012 - 6:23am

" I'm getting bored with this argument and losing my train of thought."

I think this was you saying I won.

"it can happen"

I'm not saying that a single mother is going to be able to be a SAHM.  That would be naive.  I'm saying that our lives are made up of the choices WE make.  I'm saying, take responsibility for yourself, and don't blame me, women, or anyone else for your dumb life.  If you want to change things, make them change.  Each person is able to do this. 

 

Chris Davis's picture
Chris Davis from Indiana is reading A Feast of Snakes by Harry Crews June 8, 2012 - 6:26am

It's sad how much happier those puppies made me, thank you sir.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 6:27am

I'm saying that our lives are made up of the choices WE make.  I'm saying, take responsibility for yourself, and don't blame me, women, or anyone else for your dumb life."

Don't I always say this? This is even my argument against extreme social contractualism. See this is why, when our points start to merge, that's when we should call it quits. 

 

Besides, I won and you know it. 

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 6:28am

It's sad how much happier those puppies made me, thank you sir."

HA! We're not trying to drag people down!!!! See the debate is even over now! 

 

Here! Happy thoughts! 

 

Jack Campbell Jr.'s picture
Jack Campbell Jr. from Lawrence, KS is reading American Rust by Phillipp Meyer June 8, 2012 - 6:39am

The power of white men to be what they want to be is highly overrated. The ability to contol your life is a lot more economic than people think. Nearly all the men I grew up with still live in the same desolate town. They work the same jobs they have been working since they were 18 years old. They were born there, they'll work there, and they will die there, regardless of anything they want to do about it.

Every once in awhile, someone escapes. However, more often, the women escape that area than the men. Mostly because of academics. Boys in that area are ridiculed if they are smart, or do well in school. They get told there is no time for studying because they need to get to work, get to the harvest, get to the football feild. Girls are praised for doing well in school. As a result, the girls go on to college. The boys might go to war. Then they come back and work in the corporate livestock houses that replaced their grandfather's farm.

No one gets asked what they want to be when they grow up, because chances are it won't matter.

Now, everyone in that area is white. I didn't see a black person till college. But most of those guys, all white males, never had a chance to be anything other than what they are. They are constantly reminded they are failures because people insist white males can do whatever they want.

That's why Fight Club connected well to so many guys. "We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our great war is a spiritual war. Our great depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars, but we won't. We're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off."

Whether or not it was ever intentionally done, a lot of white males feel they are constantly villified. They are reminded every day in the media that they are the bad guys who hold everyone else down, even the ones who never had any power and will never have any power. They feel guilt for things they never did.

Honestly, I find the whole thing extremely interesting. The dynamic of social identity is changing. It will be interesting to see where it ends up, even for white males.

Chris Davis's picture
Chris Davis from Indiana is reading A Feast of Snakes by Harry Crews June 8, 2012 - 6:34am

Now that this debate is wrapped up, does anyone know if Boone finally got sleep?

Jack Campbell Jr.'s picture
Jack Campbell Jr. from Lawrence, KS is reading American Rust by Phillipp Meyer June 8, 2012 - 6:40am

I assume he did. I hope he put the cigarette out first though. Fires start that way.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like June 8, 2012 - 6:43am

You guys should debate whether or not we should go back to the gold standard.

Hint:  we shouldn't.

Jack Campbell Jr.'s picture
Jack Campbell Jr. from Lawrence, KS is reading American Rust by Phillipp Meyer June 8, 2012 - 6:47am

I think we should go to a credit system based on chips inplanted to the base of our skulls. When you buy something, they just scan your retina.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters June 8, 2012 - 6:47am

“regardless of anything they want to do about it.”

This is where I call bullshit.  What ARE they doing about it?  I can rattle off dozens of options for people who are willing to take them.  It is not easy.  So complacency is what plays a huge role in this.  It’s motherfucking hard to break out of your rut.  That does not make it impossible.

I think men are blaming, blaming, blaming and taking no responsibility for where they are.  If you have ambition and drive, then you can make it out of whatever shit hole you happen to be in. Come on, Chip.  Let's be real here.  I can tell you story after story of someone who rose from nothing to be something, but does that make a difference?  Or would we rather sit back and do nothing, safe in our security blanket that tells us it is not our fault and "society" is to blame.  Be the change you want to be, to paraphrase Gandhi.  He never said bitch about the change you wish you saw.

I think it more comes from selfish self-entitled behavior.  If you are not actively trying to change your situation, then you don't deserve a better situation. 
 

Chris Davis's picture
Chris Davis from Indiana is reading A Feast of Snakes by Harry Crews June 8, 2012 - 6:47am

@ J.Y. - I don't know if I've ever seen someone start and end a debate with the same post.

Jack Campbell Jr.'s picture
Jack Campbell Jr. from Lawrence, KS is reading American Rust by Phillipp Meyer June 8, 2012 - 6:56am

The reason those stories of people who rose from nothing are interesting is because they are the exception, not the rule. There is a lot of logistics to improving your situation. If you lack the skills to change them, then you have to get the skills.

So, what do you do? If you live in poverty, you can't pay for education. You might not even have the skillset to succeed in college anyway. I might actually own more books than the public library in my hometown, so you can't rely on that. You could move to a city, but the cost of living discrepancies would leave you homeless.

Think about it logically. If everyone could really be anything they wanted to be, then there wouldn't be anyone shovelling hogshit. Our society is built on the basis that few people will ever rise to be what they want to be. We need people to fail.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 6:58am

They were born there, they'll work there, and they will die there"

Which is why I left my home. I did something about it. AD don't say we all just sit back and do nothing. 

the women escape that area than the men.;"

This is true. Mainly the ones who decide NOT to get married right out of high school, or in some cases, in high school. 

They get told there is no time for studying because they need to get to work, get to the harvest, get to the football feild."

This is true again. Dude you're my favorite person now! LOL. We even drove combines and tractors to school because we had to work right after.

 

The dynamic of social identity is changing. It will be interesting to see where it ends up, even for white males"

Not to mention black males who are shown as immoral, absentee and either drug addicted or drug sellers. Simply not the case. I know ALOT of good decent black men who take care of their families. It's bull shit these standards and biases we are forced to live with. They don't stand up and say alot for the same reason their white brothers don't. We're too busy taking care of our families or  lives. Fight Club should be the new bible. 

Just because you can rattle off options, doesn't mean people know about them. We simply didn't have much of that information in my school. 

 

selfish self-entitled behavior."

I think this is a problem with our culture overall. Again you're aligning with my ideas. This is what I have against things like healthcare and welfare. 

You guys should debate whether or not we should go back to the gold standard."

 

In a perfect world, totally. We don't have enough gold to support our economy now, so if we did, our economy would crash. I've even heard rumors Fort Knox is empty. 

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like June 8, 2012 - 7:01am

@Matt - in a perfect world we wouldn't need money and the fiat / real currency debate would not exist

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 7:02am

Agreed. 

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters June 8, 2012 - 7:13am

" If you live in poverty, you can't pay for education."

If you want education there are ways to obtain it.  If you live in poverty, you would be able to qualify for financial aid with no problem.  If you make too much for that, you can get student loans.  If you don't want student loans, you can work like a dog and pay for it yourself.  You can apply for grants and scholarships, there are thousands,a nd there are financial aid officers at every college campus that know about them and will help you apply for them.  If your job got shipped to Mexico, you can apply for WIA and the government will pay for you to get a degree to get you into the workforce again.

There are not excuses except a lack of initiative.

"You might not even have the skillset to succeed in college anyway."

Agreed.  College is not for everyone.  This is one of those hard truths in life.  But if you are not the academic type, is it safe to assume your interests probably do not lie in academics?  Yes, someone has to be a garbage man.  That is life.  But The point is, that is not forced on anyone.  I believe that person is of equal value in our society as anyone else and that they should be treated better.  This is one reason I believe in a universal single payer health insurance program in this country.  No matter what choice you make in life, you should have your basic needs met and be able to live life with dignity. 

But the real point of this, how I started this, is to say that the women's liberation movement did not make men weaker.

If men have become weaker, it is of their own complacency in life, not because someone has taken something from them

I don't think those who rise above are the exception. 

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry June 8, 2012 - 7:18am

Aw, man, I hate that I've come in on the tail end of this! 

Susan Faluti (any good feminist should know who Susan Faluti is) wrote a fantastic book about this subject a few years back entitled Stiffed.  She began writing the book with the intention of analyzing and exposing the flaws of the American male.  To show his testosterone-packed, overly aggressive and territorial nature for the monster it is.  She began her research sitting in on spousal abusers counseling meetings (which seems an obvious place for initial research into the topic of how shitty men can be).  What she discovered from those meetings caused her to change the focus of her book.

Stiffed is the study of the social emasculation of the American male.  Some of what Matt has said is true.  There are links to the burned bras and man-hate of certain factions of feminism and the media.  But there are other and probably equally powerful links to Vietnam, the Cold War, and the growing realization that the government was untruthful.  That was an era that shook us to the bedrock of our group perception and part of the result of that has been the evolution of an overarching feeling of uselessness and purposelessness in the American male.

This actually is an issue that men in the country (and probably others, but I don't spend much time in any of them) have to deal with on an individual basis, and it is a difficult thing to do as thought processes are, but their very nature, insidious and sly.  The fact that Matt didn't hit all the salient points (as I did not, as well) does not make his argument invalid.

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 7:23am

If men have become weaker, it is of their own complacency in life, not because someone has taken something from them"

I think this is true to a degree. I do think some stuff is out of control. It doesn't mean we can't push past it (with the right tools) but it just makes things harder. 

you would be able to qualify for financial aid"

If my mother (my father didn't go to college) who worked and raised us while getting her masters hadn't let me know about aid and scholarships and things like that, I wouldn't have known anything about it. It wasn't ever covered in school. Ignorance (involuntary) is part of the problem here. 

Once again it's a matter of the tools. 

 

 

I think this should be a the theme song for this thread. 

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 7:22am

social emasculation of the American male."

 

BOOM! 

 

The fact that Matt didn't hit all the salient points (as I did not, as well) does not make his argument invalid."

Yeah, I do have to do SOME work. LOL

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry June 8, 2012 - 7:26am

Misspelled.  Her name is "Susan Faludi".

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 7:28am

I need to read that book. Think I may just order it. 

 

Also that's the third edit from you in these many hours. Very unlike you. 

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters June 8, 2012 - 7:28am

" There are links to the burned bras and man-hate of certain factions of feminism and the media.  But there are other and probably equally powerful links to Vietnam, the Cold War, and the growing realization that the government was untruthful."

Wow.  Am I to believe, and correct me if I am wrong, the argument before me is that after being BMOC for all of recorded history, the white man got all self conscious and butt hurt in the last fifty years and now they're emasculated? 

How convenient. 

"Ignorance (involuntary) is part of the problem here."

If you have interest in college, is it too much to ask for a person to have the initiative to go inquire about his own options? 
 

"BOOM"

You shouldn't try and help.

Jack Campbell Jr.'s picture
Jack Campbell Jr. from Lawrence, KS is reading American Rust by Phillipp Meyer June 8, 2012 - 7:30am

Oh, I don't think the women's liberation movement made men weaker at all, but I do think they get villified as a whole, rather than just the individuals responsible for any of the issues.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters June 8, 2012 - 7:31am

I don't blame you, Chip. 

I blame Matt. 

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 7:33am

Wow.  Am I to believe, and correct me if I am wrong, the argument before me is that after being BMOC for all of recorded history, the white man got all self conscious and butt hurt in the last fifty years and now they're emasculated?"

Really? For at LEAST seventeen hundred years at least 80-90% of the population of Europe (made of white folks) were serfs, little more than slaves....so yeah. No. 

If you have interest in college, is it too much to ask for a person to have the initiative to go inquire about his own options?"

Some people don't have anyone to ask. People are tribal and rarely venture outside their immediate groups. If your group is mostly minimum wage people, or folks that have stayed in their little town, they don't know any more than you do. 

I DON'T think the current educational system is for everyone though. One size fits all is rarely one size fits all, especially when it comes to boys and men. 

Matt Attack's picture
Matt Attack from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William Faulkner June 8, 2012 - 7:33am

I blame Matt."

LOL

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters June 8, 2012 - 7:37am

"Some people don't have anyone to ask."

Financial aid department.  No excuses. If you want to go to college, you have to suck it up, put on your big girl panties, and walk into the college and check it out.  The people there are very nice. 

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry June 8, 2012 - 7:37am

Am I to believe,

That's entirely your call.  You've likely read more stuff to support your argument than I have. 

On the other hand, most of what you're saying seems to be steeped in some resentment for terrible things that have happened to women historically and not necessarily directed at the here-and-now of women's victimization.