Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks July 24, 2012 - 9:11pm

"We're just waiting for a debate and then a discussion on kittens."

Did I tell you I'm part-cat or was that just intuition?

Nick Wilczynski's picture
Nick Wilczynski from Greensboro, NC is reading A Dance with Dragons by George R.R. Martin July 24, 2012 - 9:23pm

Look, I'm against war too, and there is no way that the situation in Afghanistan, that ANY situation in Afghanistan is so simple as the one I described.

But my point is that drone strikes are worse even than normal war. Normal war has all sorts of qualifications and requirements and can be fought against the same way that peace activists have always fought against war.

But drones represent a culture of constant, indiscriminate war. They are an attempt to abolish the notion of peace. If you are anti-war then you need to know that drones invade not only Pakistan, but also your dreams of peace.

cosmo's picture
cosmo July 20, 2014 - 12:47pm

.

Jose F. Diaz's picture
Jose F. Diaz from Boston is reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel July 24, 2012 - 10:17pm

I have no political affiliation. I believe in what I believe. Politicians have just taken every view and split them down the middle leaving the country divided.

I think abortion is a viable option for women, Gay people should do as they please, and those who don't fight the wars don't get a say in how we fight wars. You have a choice to say whether we go to war or not, but not about the manner in which we win those wars. And there is supposed to be a winner. I think government should be less involved in our everyday lives. I think if you earn it you should keep it. If I feel moved enough to give to a charity, I will make the decision. I believe in the humane treatment of all, but I also agree with the death penalty for those who have proven they can't live by societies laws. I don't care if a police officer asks for my identification because I don't do unlawful things...most of the time. Becoming a lawful citizen is a hassle, but I believe it's worth the wait. Sometimes life works out and sometimes it doesn't, but that isn't an excuse to do as you please. I think if the presidential vote is within ten percent we should be have a second vote. If that second vote is the same, then we become a country with two presidents and no vice president. True bipartisanism can happen. The Swiss model for government rule is a really good concept even though I think the country is a bit too elitist (try becoming a Swiss citizen and you will see what I mean). We shouldn't restrict the law abiding if criminals can't live like decent human beings. The government doesn't care that you sit at home masturbating into a jello mold that you eat throughout the week. They will care if you try serving that jello to another person without their knowledge. But by all means, inform and offer away. If you feel ashamed doing something perhaps you should not be doing that thing. I have many more opinions that I live by, but I don't force my opinions on others. There IS such a thing as a decent human being and I believe deep down that I am one.

What is my political affiliation? Who cares, it's about what you believe in not your political affiliation. The term has lost all meaning in the last two decades, perhaps longer.

Thanks for listening to my apology. And I mean apology as in justification in speech or writing and not that I feel ashamed and need to express regret.

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks July 24, 2012 - 11:38pm

"But drones represent a culture of constant, indiscriminate war. They are an attempt to abolish the notion of peace. If you are anti-war then you need to know that drones invade not only Pakistan, but also your dreams of peace."

Nick, I'm agreeing with you; I'm just pointing out the logical fallacy that both sides represent. We want less people killed -- war demands that we don't consider our enemies people, so those that believe in war believe in drones (very broad, sweeping generalization.) I wholeheartedly disagree with drones after reading your last post and doing some research before I responded. I was trying to point out the fact that drones are war. They are exactly what we hate because they can, quite literally, be the perfect metaphor for war.

Joseph, that was well-reasoned and exactly why I started this thread. I want people to dig down to their core beliefs and tell me how they label themselves. It's interesting to see how people will do that. Also, I apologize if my drone comments to Nick offended you -- I know you're military and I know I'm not and I know that that definitely gives you more importance in the debate. I don't think I should be kicked out, though. War affects everyone, and while I'd want politicans to give more of an ear to you, I think they should listen to me, too.

How else can politics work? Plutocracy is a sweet concept, especially when you add "benevolent" like J.Y. did, but what are we going to do? Hold an election for someone to make all of the military decisions, and only veterans can run? Hold a teacher-only election for educational law? We could go even further and let business owners regulate business owners, let drivers choose speed limits, and have kids govern themselves. The problem with it being in everyone's "best interest" to let people of their own profession dictate their laws -- I mean, how many times have all of us complained that the president has no idea what it's like to be a teacher, or a veteran, or a gas station owner, or a librarian -- is that when we let them decide their best interests, they automatically choose things out of self-preservation instincts rather than the greater good. It's why Congress shouldn't dictate their salary; it's really the same concept. We're built on checks and balances because we're human, and therefore, we will always make sure our asses are covered.

Here's another interesting question; I'm only bringing it up out of curiosity. I recently read a blog post about the incest case in Germany. A brother and sister didn't meet until they were both out of their teens and began a relationship. Should incest be illegal? And if your reason for that is the prevalence of birth defects in children of incest, what if the woman agrees to be sterlized or some other thing? Should we regulate morality if we know that, without the law, the moral will be enough to keep it from happening? If we got rid of the law to steal, people would become thieves with no worries, which is why stealing is illegal. Well, what about laws like forbidding incest when, almost always, not having a law won't lead us to do it?

Sorry if I rambled, I'm exhausted.

Species84's picture
Species84 from Fluidic space is reading UNIX a standard operating system (1985) by Austen & Thomassen July 25, 2012 - 8:11am

@courtney,   it wasn't sarcasm .  I think it is fucked up when people work hard in 32 hour jobs and still are poor. It is sad.  What else can i say?    

The only way to end this when workers unite, do action, strike! etc .  Raise the red flag!  :)   

For instance: something i cannot understand from the united states is that you see old people (75 and above) working at walmart or other places... really hard for me to imagine.  Society shouldn't tread elderly that way, old 'folks' should rest,relax and take it easy. 

 

Jose F. Diaz's picture
Jose F. Diaz from Boston is reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel July 25, 2012 - 10:04am

Courtney, Like I said, I want you involved in the decision on IF we go to war, just not what you think is ethical way to go to war. If people are less likely to attack the U.S. and our allies because we have drones at our disposal then they are working. We like to call them deterrents. 

Species84, I hope you mean 40 hour work weeks. If the workers are being oppressed and are working in horrible environments then I think it is a great idea to strike and get the management to concede. If the workers want more money because they want to drive the same car and eat at the same fancy restaurants as the boss then not so much. Honestly, I don't see people working and starving. I see people working and getting angry that they still can't do all the same things as some other people. Mostly the ones they see on TV. The angry people strike which leads to the owners saying, "You're right, I've been horrible to you all. As a matter of fact, I'm just going to shut down the entire place. I've made enough money. Goodbye."

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading A truckload of books July 25, 2012 - 10:52am

Well, Joe...there are a LOT of people working that are unable to make ends meet. Hell, I've been there myself (and that was when it was much easier to find a decent job). And working more hours or getting a second job isn't possible for everyone, even if they can land the job, if they're taking the job to feed their kids, getting after hours child care is going to eat most, if not all, of their pay up.

It's pretty fucked. I don't pretend to have the answers. I don't think removing the minimum wage would help, but I recognize that raising it would likely lead to hiring fewer people to keep the profit margins where they want them to be. But it isn't as simple as 'if you get a job you can pay your bills and feed yourself'.

 

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks July 25, 2012 - 11:08am

I'm not going to back down completely because I think that I still have a right to have an opinion on how we fight wars. Yes, your opinion matters more when it comes to decision-making, but that doesn't mean I don't have a place in the public debate. Also, I'm not sure I'd call it a deterrent. If I knew my sworn enemy, whom I was preparing to fight, was coming equipped with a gun, I wouldn't back out. I would take a bigger gun.

And Renee is right. It's possible to have a job and starve. My family has done it, we've just been lucky enough to have family nearby and the food pantry where I volunteered gave us some extra groceries to make ends meet. That was five people in one house, four of whom had full-time jobs (and not thirty-two hours a week full time, but forty to sixty hours a week full time) and I was a high school student.

Raising minimum wage is a start, because even though it may slow job creation, it provides better standards for those working. Providing cheaper education is a start, but so is explaining to kids that a bachelor's degree doesn't guarantee them a job and that trade school might be better. Tax hikes to provide public assistance is a start. But I'm not going to tell you, Joseph, that your opinion doesn't matter because you've never worked and gone hungry, because fiscal politics still affect you, even if your health isn't on the line every day.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters July 25, 2012 - 11:12am

Educationis really the only way to make a difference.

America does not invest in the education of its people and has therefore fallen behind.

JonnyGibbings's picture
JonnyGibbings July 25, 2012 - 12:46pm

Well for me it’s easy. I’m against whoever is in at the time. Doesn’t really matter who, because each time the faces and the names change – the shit stays the same. We have a coalition now in England – a two party tie up. Lib-Dem (Liberal democrats and Conservatives. Should have been Con-Dem! Two of the biggest middle class wankers you could possibly imagine running the country. They call it a coalition, I call it a hermaphrodite – a prick and a cunt!
Voting is like being given a choice of which bowl of shit to eat. Except last time, instead of three  bowls of shit, there was a fourth empty bowl, where you could scoop two shits together. Still shit.
I wish they’d say “Well, I’m full of shit and how do you feel about that’ Because at least then they’d be honest! We had Nick Clegg – a right slimy prick. Promise wonderful things. A welcome change, but he was just the same fuck-punch in the ass as the rest of em. When they knocked on my door to campaign for my vote, when I opened the door, they may as well have just pissed on my feet.
It is still the ‘Haves’ protecting themselves, and the cost to the ‘Have not’s’ When your rich and get money troubles, they give you money. When your poor and have money troubles – they take the money away!
So, I’m against whoever is in…
http://jonnygibbings.wordpress.com/2012/03/24/binge-drinking-budgets-and...

GaryP's picture
GaryP from Denver is reading a bit of this and that July 25, 2012 - 12:50pm

I wouldn't be surprised if someone (somehow) discovers that Dem and Repub politicians (and power brokers) have been colluding for quite some time on this whole partisan hyperbole, enflaming the rank-n-file to 1) maintain power/money 2) keep people in line.

We need a large chunk of moderates from both parties to tell their respective parties to fuck off and start their own party. Leave the far right and the far left as fringe parties.

You (or your super PAC) is fined HEAVILY if your political ad contains falsehoods or misleading information, as verified by non-partisan group(s).

All news sources (I'm looking at you, MSNBC (the cable channel) and FOX) are also fined heavily for lies and misleads.

With that said, I'm liberal and truly believe that the Moral Majority and the Teabaggers have all but destroyed any decency the GOP had.

EDIT: Pretty much agree with Jonny.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated July 25, 2012 - 12:56pm

You guys do realize that war is on a massive down trend right? Although I think victory is far more important then peace.

@Court -

Dwayne, Michael; I see where you're coming from. The thing is, those stop-gap measures work. Short-term, sure, but they work. The problem is that we don't always have time to wait. There were two ways to end segregation: bussing or tearing down the walls between races built by class and social warfare. Did we really have time to wait? Bussing was an imperfect solution, but a solution.

 

I don't know what you mean by the word work, but we must disagree. Bussing or putting kids in the same school didn't solve the problem over night. It was at best a small step in the right direction. The real changes in racism in the U.S. came slowly over decades. It also ignores the efforts of Martin Luther King JR. and the countless other private individuals who did NOT work for the government involved in putting pressure through protests and boycotts.

The government worked when they gave me free birth control simply because I was poor. It stops the economically disadvantaged from digging themselves deeper into a hole (and don't give me that bullshit about not having sex -- fuck that. If the rich can fuck indiscriminately, I should get the same privilege. The difference is that I don't abuse it and fuck football teams. I'm monogamous and probably cost less in health care than the withered, rich women who take birth control and get STDs. But I digress.)

 

The government worked when they gave me so much money in student aid (grants, no less) that a student with a 2010 SAT score (achieved while living in a hotel with no preparation) and no money for college can have their entire tuition paid in free money, not loans, and be prepared to go on to law school without racking up literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.

 

The government worked when they allowed us to put a referendum on the local ballot for more money for my school, which passed. The government worked when they built the public school. The government worked when they offered free lunch to poor kids.

 

If by 'worked' you mean 'took someone else's money and gave it to you' then yeah sure. It sucks you are/were poor, and I'm not opposed to people getting help. That doesn't mean it's a good idea for others to take money without permission and redistribute it. I've been poor most of my life, and from what I see government 'aid' it traps people in a cycle of depending on handouts. If you make to much money you loose your low cost housing, medical aid, low cost education, food stamps, and what not.

 

The government works better on a small scale, sure, but it sure fucking works sometimes.

So does playing the lotto as a retirement plan, doesn't make it a good idea.

Paying for this or that always sounds like a good idea, but in practice it just doesn't seem to work. We've had poor people and drugs and disasters of inner cities for decades, and have had entitlement programs aimed at all of them. Giving stuff away for free isn't a magic wand.

@Avery - Worse the education in America is focused on 'get a degree' with no one telling young folk to worry about what is and is not a marketable skill. Which is Court did say.

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks July 25, 2012 - 2:20pm

Avery, I agree, but add what Dwayne said.

Jonny, I definitely see where you're coming from. The fact of the matter is that no matter who is in charge, things always seem to stay the same. Slow progress may be progress, but that's not why we have government. Bipartisanship is great until nothing gets done because of bickering and in-fighting, and it's great until we over compromise.

Gary, most of what you said is eerily true. It's not too crazy to imagine that it's literally just a game. That's why we have politic news channels running all the time -- it's entertainment for the masses. It gives us something to fight about. When the Casey Anthony case was the hot story, I honestly wondered if the government gave every generation a court case that riles every citizen and makes everyone agree with each other, like the O.J. Simpson case. If they don't, they need to -- it's the same reason why the death of bin Laden was such a big deal. We truly felt united.

Dwayne:

"You guys do realize that war is on a massive down trend right? Although I think victory is far more important then peace."

First, it's kind of sad how quiet it's being kept that the fact is that troops are being pulled out in massive numbers. But it's because people want to win, not to solve anything. Peace is infinitely more important than victory, because while victory may make us a larger global power, we also draw attention to us and make people hate us. We need to work towards peace, not towards ultimate domination. Imperialism is bad in any form.

"It was at best a small step in the right direction."

That's my point. The government either has to implement programs that will take ages to make a change, but will solve the problem, or make a small change that acts quickly and does little but helps move it along. The power of people like MLK Jr. comes from the fact that, because of their actions, the government stood up and listened. MLK Jr. wouldn't matter if he hadn't changed the government's policy. If he had just been someone spouting ideals and no change had come of it, he wouldn't matter. In reality, the only way to make a difference is to change things at the highest level. If citizens hate big business and boycott Walmart, it might change them, but then another, new Walmart will come into play and go by the same laws that the old Walmart had -- so we haven't changed anything, not until the laws which govern them change.

"If by 'worked' you mean 'took someone else's money and gave it to you' then yeah sure."

Yes, that is what I mean. What was I supposed to do, drop out of high school and get a full-time, minimum wage job at McDonald's flipping burgers so I could pay outrageous prices for medical bills and a college I'd never attend since I couldn't finish high school? My parents both work over forty hours a week apiece; we're still under the poverty line. My parents can't go back to school, and what would be the point of it? They're both skilled laborers with highly needed skills (both in mechanics) and do literally everything they can, but my father's work-related injuries have bankrupted us twice. Unless the government helps me out and gives me the same opportunities as the students who go to my school, have Mommy do their homework, and don't have half the drive or focus that I do, I'd be stuck in the same cycle of poverty as my parents.

Also, the referendum was a choice by my school district. It was decided by votes on our local ballot -- and was necessary because Mitch Daniels cut so much money from the education budget that we'd have classes of sixty students, a freshman-sophomore and junior-senior campus to cut back on teachers (because the more students you have, the more lenient the ratio) and almost all of our physical education facilities would've been shut down. My community decided to vote yes on the referendums. It was made possible by our local government offering us that option.

"...it traps people in a cycle of depending on handouts."

That can be true, but it's a sweeping generalization. My family has reluctantly accepted meager government benefits -- my health care plan, unemployment after my mom was laid off, unemployment when my dad was fired -- but we've never taken welfare or food stamps. I think it's stupid that they did that -- seeing as we literally went hungry sometimes -- but because people cry about "welfare queens" and "playing the system" my parents were afraid of the social repurcussions of taking too much from the government when we've paid taxes all our damned lives.

"So does playing the lotto as a retirement plan, doesn't make it a good idea."

You have a 1 in 176 million chance of winning the jackpot. There's a stark difference between those odds and the number of times the government has suceeded.

"Giving stuff away for free isn't a magic wand."

Is it giving it away for free if a woman gets laid off after paying 22% income tax for fifteen years at the same company? That's a highly specific example; I want to know how it's "giving it away for free" when the programs are funded by money that I contribute through my taxes. That's why taxes exist, to pay for these "free" services, like the road you drove on, the police who patrol your neighborhood, and the firemen who douse your burning house.

Jose F. Diaz's picture
Jose F. Diaz from Boston is reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel July 25, 2012 - 5:34pm

Okay, we all have these tremendous ideas of how a government and its people are supposed to act. Now let's start working on novels that will make people really listen to our ideas. 

 

Dulce et Utile!!!

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated July 25, 2012 - 7:14pm

I finished writing two books this morning. Now I get to pull teeth revise them.

Nick Wilczynski's picture
Nick Wilczynski from Greensboro, NC is reading A Dance with Dragons by George R.R. Martin July 25, 2012 - 7:46pm

 If people are less likely to attack the U.S. and our allies because we have drones at our disposal then they are working. We like to call them deterrents. 

That's an interesting theory, but I don't know if you understand how a deterrant works.

You see, we had this Cold War, and both sides had nuclear weapons. This deterred them from going to war with each other.

On the other hand, let's say that you are an innocent civilian whose family has been murdered by a drone strike in Pakistan. It happens a lot. Is this innocent civilian less likely to join a terrorist group?

Because fear won't win the war on Terror. Fear started the war on terror. Frightened Palestinians and frightened Saudis who were up against forces that they knew outgunned them. And so they took that fear and they tried to push it back on the people they were afraid of. They expected to die against these forces that were arrayed against them, that's how suicide bombers work.

Outgunning them further, it doesn't seem to me like that is the way to solve that problem. Neither does murdering random civilians.

Jose F. Diaz's picture
Jose F. Diaz from Boston is reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel July 25, 2012 - 8:28pm

On the other hand, let's say that you are an innocent civilian whose family has been murdered by a drone strike in Pakistan. It happens a lot. Is this innocent civilian less likely to join a terrorist group?

Where the hell are you getting your data? Do you have an inside man in the Pentagon who gives you up to date information as it comes in or are you just regugitating information from CNN? Please give me some hard data to support this gigantic number of civilians who are dying because we don't give a shit and just bomb people for no apparent reason.

Because fear won't win the war on Terror. Fear started the war on terror. Frightened Palestinians and frightened Saudis who were up against forces that they knew outgunned them. And so they took that fear and they tried to push it back on the people they were afraid of. They expected to die against these forces that were arrayed against them, that's how suicide bombers work.

Fear started the war on terror? Really? That is your take on what happened huh? It had nothing to do with the U.S. underbidding Osama Bin Laden as protectors of Saudi oil? He didn't get pissed that he lost X amount of money and sought retaliation against this perceived disrespect? We had all these weapons and they got frightened and attacked first. That is why you think 9/11 happened? May I remind you about prior to 9/11:

-On February 26, 1993, Islamic terrorists attempt to bring down the World Trade Center towers by detonating truck bombs in the underground parking garage. The attack fails to topple the twin towers but kills six and injures over 1,000.

-On February 24, 1997, an armed man shoots at tourists on the Empire State Building observation deck. The gunman's note claims that the attack is punishment against the "enemies of Palestine."

-On August 7, 1998, Al Qaeda bombs the U.S. embassies in Nairobi and Tanzania, killing 225 and wounding 4,000.

-On October 12, 2000, Al Qaeda bombs the USS Cole, killing 17 U.S. sailors and wounding 40 near Aden, Yemen.

I omitted many other terrorist attacks that occurred. At least ten more.

Yes sir, you are correct. We started the whole thing. PLEASE, for the love of who ever the hell you hold as a higher power (if you do), go do some research before you continue this conversation. The news is no longer a viable source of information. They are reality TV with facts sprinkled in. 

Jose F. Diaz's picture
Jose F. Diaz from Boston is reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel July 25, 2012 - 8:33pm

And if you don't feel deterred by a group who has a larger arsenal than yourself, by all means go attack a military base. They will be more than happy to show you why you feel a bit hesitant to start opening fire first. Doesn't even have to be American. Go knock yourself out.

We have all the toys so we don't have to use them. Much the same reason why kids practice karate, not to use it, but just in case some idiot decides to feel threatened and attacks.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like July 25, 2012 - 8:36pm

JDD - What do you think of the proposed 500bil defense cut?  Budget needs work.  Wars are ending (doesn't mean there won't be new ones.)

Jose F. Diaz's picture
Jose F. Diaz from Boston is reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel July 25, 2012 - 8:42pm

The cuts come from letting go of personnel to man the ships, drive tanks, and fly planes. The equipment is always being revamped as technology changes. Granted we let go of plenty of old gear and stop ordering thousands of BBB's (Beans, bullets, and bandaids). So long as the money goes towards education and other worth while programs I am all for it. Unfortunately, my one voice will not make this happen. I will change the world through my writing one day. Until then I go to school to learn how to present the best voice I can when the time comes.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like July 25, 2012 - 8:46pm

Worthy goals.  Good luck.

Nick Wilczynski's picture
Nick Wilczynski from Greensboro, NC is reading A Dance with Dragons by George R.R. Martin July 25, 2012 - 8:53pm

These are numbers.

I feel a need to offer them up to at least cover my retreat. I don't want to argue about this subject with you, it would be inappropriate.

Thank you for your service Joe.

Jose F. Diaz's picture
Jose F. Diaz from Boston is reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel July 25, 2012 - 9:32pm

I appreciate the numbers. I don't see how it would be inappropriate, but whatever. When you have an opportunity please tell the enemy to stop hiding with civilians and children. It would greatly increase our drone effectiveness. I'm joking Nick. Lighten up. lol

JonnyGibbings's picture
JonnyGibbings July 25, 2012 - 10:36pm

A little boy goes to his dad and asks, "What is politics?"

Dad says, "Well son, let me try to explain it this way: I'm the breadwinner of the family, so let's call me capitalism. Your Mummy, she's the administrator of the money, so we'll call her the Government. We're here to take care of your needs, so we'll call you the people. Carla, your nanny, we'll consider her the Working Class because she has to do all the things we don't want to, like shitty nappies. And your baby brother, we'll call him the Future. Now, watch what the family does, how it works. Think about that and see if that makes sense,"

So the little boy goes off to bed thinking about what dad had said.

Later that night, he hears his baby brother crying nombody comes to help, so he gets up to check on him. He finds that the baby has done a huge stinking shit. So the little boy goes to his parents' room and finds his mother sound asleep Shee has been stealing some of the money his Father gives her to pay Carla the Nanny, and buying blackmarket valium and Russian vodka with it. He can't wake her as she is sedated. He goes to the nanny's room. Finding the door locked, he peeks in the keyhole and sees her teid up over a chair, and his Dad ass-fucking her. He gives up and goes back to bed. The next morning, the little boy says to his father, "Dad, I think I understand the concept of politics now."

The father says, "Good son, tell me in your own words what you think politics is all about."

The little boy replies, "Well, while Capitalism is screwing the Working Class in the ass, the Government is stealing it's money and is sound asleep, the People are being ignored and the Future is full of shit."

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters July 26, 2012 - 4:54am

I laughed, I cried, I got more coffee. 

All in all, that was a lovely story and my heart is warmed.

Species84's picture
Species84 from Fluidic space is reading UNIX a standard operating system (1985) by Austen & Thomassen July 26, 2012 - 7:14am

@Gibbings

great story.  

Lydon for president!

Jack Campbell Jr.'s picture
Jack Campbell Jr. from Lawrence, KS is reading American Rust by Phillipp Meyer July 26, 2012 - 8:06am

Maybe I am being a bit cold to the couple of civilians that died, but that doesn't seem indiscriminate to me, and in fact, I would call the drone strikes very effective. I would imagine a strike team would have more potential collateral damage than that. In fact, this year, the minimum reported civillian casualties is zero, militants have been killed, and there has been little risk to our soldiers. That sounds like a win to me.

Jose F. Diaz's picture
Jose F. Diaz from Boston is reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel July 26, 2012 - 8:54am

You want to talk indiscriminate strikes? How about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Anyone heard of the fire bombing in Dresden? I think we've come a long way.

Species84's picture
Species84 from Fluidic space is reading UNIX a standard operating system (1985) by Austen & Thomassen July 26, 2012 - 10:23am

Yes i heard about that bombing. :) it was nasty and unnecessary...  Still if you put it on a scale (if that is possible somehow) the damage caused was pretty much neglectable by what Nazi-Germany did. I geuss it was somesort of a revenge thingy.

----back to the present----

Secret illegal CIA (US) prison camps world wide... Now that is fun!! No drone can beat that creepy shit.

And yes people HATE america for it  and for lots of other reasons. To bad my country affiliates so much with the US.

So bring home the troops (drones included) and keep them there. We dont need you , we dont want you. 

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks July 26, 2012 - 11:56am

Napalm use in Vietnam, suspension of habeas corpus in the Civil War, and the somewhat credible rumors of rape during WWII. Oh, and Guantanamo.

Seriously, though -- where's the line for acceptable behaivor during wartime?

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated July 26, 2012 - 12:15pm

Winning.

cosmo's picture
cosmo July 26, 2012 - 12:29pm

Seriously, though -- where's the line for acceptable behaivor during wartime?

The Geneva Conventions of 1949. I think there's a clause in there that says it's okay to ignore them if too much sand gets into and breaks your iPad.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 26, 2012 - 1:40pm

I used to be pretty staunchly conservative, but as i got older and learned about the concept of grey instead of just black and white, my views changed. I am a firm believer in voting for who you truly believe is the best possible leader for the country, and deeply miss having the privilege of voting.

As for what I would define myself as now, you tell me...

I believe in taking what you need as a country. If you don't have enough affordable petroleum, take it, even if it's by force - but never pretend you're searching for WMDs when you're really trying to secure resources. I also believe in scorched earth warfare. If you are going to war, you need to go all out or stay home. Everyone will die, that is a fact of life, so all this pussyfooting around trying so hard to keep from killing supposedly innocent people is just stupid because chances are those people will have awful lives and die meaninglessly whether it is by cancer at 87, or a nuclear blast at 12.

I believe in the death penalty for all crimes beyond minor traffic infractions like speeding or improper parking. You stole something, death. You molested a little girl, death. You were caught buying cocaine, death. Everything beyond minor traffic violations have a permanent and cumulatively negative effect on the lives of law-abiding citizens, and no one should have the right to permanently hurt someone else's life So kill 'em. Do it publicly, and make everyone watch every execution. It should be televised on all channels of television and radio. I guaran-god-damn-tee you it will have an immediate result of far less crimes being commited. Those who still choose to commit crimes knowing full well that they could be put to death are the ones who deserve death the most and who will be weeded out of the gene pool first.

This leads me to the next belief - genetic engineering. If we can develop the science to do it, why not engineer soldiers? Why not engineer out of the gene pool such maladies as Down's Syndrome, mental/emotional disorders, genetic obesity issues, and more rare but serious genetic disorders like VACTERL Syndrome (which I have.) I shake with anger at the thought that our government forbidding certain types of stem-cell research could be preventing the discovery of ways to make sure I don't pass on my condition to my children. I believe science for the sake of societal benefit should be by any means necessary.

I also believe that if one of those means that might be necessary for the advancement of a better civilization happens to be testing on humans, so be it. There are hordes of useless homeless people and inmates in overcrowded prisons who do nothing but consume resources that would better serve productive members of society. I've been homeless, and I've been in prison, so I'm not just saying this idly. I firmly believe that if people don't want to enact my death penalty for most crimes, then they should at least put these dredges of mankind to good use by experimenting on them.

I know that many of you probably think I'm evil now, or at least making a long and sick joke. Unlike a lot of what I type in my posts in the discussion forums, which is usually very tongue-in-cheek, I mean every word of this post. I probably have pages more I could put in this about my beliefs, but I just wanted to touch on the first few that popped into my head. If anyone cares to try to codify what sort of political affiliation I would have based on my stated beliefs, I'd be curious to know what you'd call my party.

cosmo's picture
cosmo July 26, 2012 - 1:52pm

Yikes!

/mental note: don't rile Strange Photon

 

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters July 26, 2012 - 2:03pm

@SP - I have to think you're lying.  I mean, I hate to enact Godwin's law in here...but

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks July 26, 2012 - 2:55pm

I think we've proven that no one here fits into a party, but in all honesty your views are extreme right, nearing communism.

Also, human expirementation is great, but there are plenty of willing people. My grandfather let them test on him for almost the last seven years of his life because he was so riddled with cancer. Prisoners, maybe. Homeless people, no; I was homeless (squatting, but legally homeless) from fifteen to seventeen and I'm not sure why that would put me in line for expirementation.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 26, 2012 - 3:02pm

Courtney, I see it as a matter of usefulness to society. If someone is homeless they're likely jobless, and thus not productive, so experimenting on them would give them a value to society at large. And so far right it's nearing communism? That doesn't make sense... Communism is the logical progession of liberal thinking, not conservative thinking, so kinda heading in the wrong direction there. My woman likes to say I'm basically a fascist, but she has no real beliefs and just says she could care less what people do, so she might not be an accurate or objective judge.

And to Avery, one of these days you're really gonna hopefully learn when I'm being serious and when I'm not. This time - serious. Last time, when you thought I WAS serious - joking (or lying as you seem dedicated to calling humor.) And what is Godwin's law? If you mean the whole worse than Hitler thing, then how on earth does that have anything to do with what I said?

 

cosmo's picture
cosmo July 26, 2012 - 3:04pm

I think we've proven that no one here fits into a party, but in all honesty your views are extreme right, nearing communism.

How is extreme right nearing communism? I don't get that.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 26, 2012 - 3:08pm

EXACTLY^^^^^^

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks July 26, 2012 - 3:10pm

I fucked up the terms, meant left. I think my subconscious automatically wants to put communism in the same group as conservatism because I'm a socialist (also the far end of the left) and I hate it when people consider them the same thing. Freudian slip, sorry.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 26, 2012 - 3:14pm

So, do you mean you think my views are extremely liberal, bordering on communism? I'm confused now.

I have no problems being labelled a Fascist, but being called a Communist really hurts my feelings. Hell, being considered extremely liberal is pretty offensive to me in itself. Though, I am for gay marriage, racial equality, and the right to kill your own baby if you so choose.

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks July 26, 2012 - 3:14pm

Also, 44% of homeless people have jobs today. Obviously, I didn't at fifteen, and working a minimum-wage job for eighteen hours a week (the maximum by law in Indiana) wouldn't have done shit to make me not homeless.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 26, 2012 - 3:17pm

I think it's sad that Indiana has such stupid child labor laws, especially considering how slave-like some children of farmers in the lovely Hoosier state are treated by their parents. I live in Northeastern Indiana, so I know a little bit about how limited the stupid laws were for you then. Sorry they couldn't have had laws to help you have a roof over your head at that time.

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks July 26, 2012 - 3:22pm

I need to clarify what I meant by communism. I don't mean the idealogy or political theory, but the attitude that comes from it. The Chinese kill their daughters because, to them, females have no value. That's what stood out to me that rang of communism -- the idea that being "worthless" is not subjective, but defined by society. I'll admit that I stuck you with that label almost singularly because of the idea of human expirementation. Nazis -- who were communists, not socialists, damnit -- thought it was okay to expirement on Jews, gypsys, and homosexuals because they were worthless by society's standards.

I can easily see where you'd be considered a fascist because of your belief system when it comes to war. It's a hightened form of nationalism -- correct me if I'm wrong, because it's been a while since I brushed up on fascism and tolitarianism, but that's almost the definition, right? A fascist believes that the nation/ethnicity is more important than the individual.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 26, 2012 - 3:28pm

You're pretty much right in your description of fascism, and after I mentioned your communism comment to my woman, she said she figured you meant it just as you clarified in your latest comment, so I guess it's a woman thing and I was too dumb to get what you meant.  :)

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks July 26, 2012 - 3:31pm

I pretty much ignored the labor laws once I turned seventeen. I'm not sure how I didn't get my boss into trouble, but she took the risk because she was my brother-in-law's sister.

I never had to sleep on the streets or anything, but we lived in three houses after they'd been foreclosed on. It was terrifying and not something I'll ever do again. We had to constantly be on the lookout for cops, our lights/heating/water got turned off at random, and moved when they finally figured out we were still there. It was not pleasant, but it instilled in me a healthy understanding of what needed to be done.

EDIT: It's actually fucking awesomet that she got it. I'm glad it didn't sound too fucking stupid after I explained it, too, haha. But wait -- did she read what you'd said or does she automatically assume people call you a communist for encouraging human testing? Because honestly, that's fucking funny if she does.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 26, 2012 - 3:39pm

I bet it did. When I was homeless, I got some meals at a soup kitchen and occasionally saw a girl in her teens who was squatting with a couple other young people and I always wondered if she had a much harder experience of homelessness because she was a female. I imagine there are a lot of issues that affect girls that don't affect guys when they're homeless. I loathed that time in my life, but like you, it did teach me a lot.

EDIT: I told her what I had posted, and then what you said about it, and she told me I was probably misundestanding what you meant by communist. She just calls me a fascist and like Hitler but without the mustache.

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks July 26, 2012 - 3:51pm

Actually, most of the time I was homeless, it was with my family. We all squatted -- my mom, dad, and older sister. I didn't know we were actually squatting until our power got turned off when I was fourteen and they had to explain it to me. After that, I noticed how short we were on money. I'd never taken an interest in clothes or anything, so it didn't hit me that the reason my clothing was years old was for any reason other than the fact that I didn't want to go shopping. It was strange -- after I found out, it made sense, but before, it seemed normal. Normal is relative, of course. We ate, but it was the sort of cheap food like Vienna sausages and Hamburger Helper (with stolen hamburger) that you can get at Dollar General. I think my experience was probably much, much easier than yours, because I was young and didn't realize what it was like to have a permanent house and regular visits to the grocery store and new shoes when the old ones were worn out.

Women do have it harder being homeless when they're on their own, I think that's why they stick in groups. My mom was homeless for a while and always talked about how the places she squatted were woman-only -- so if there was a man there when they woke up, they knew he had bad intentions. They didn't have to guess. They knew right then and there that they needed to defend themselves.

In all honesty, if I wasn't trying to be nice, I'd have gone ahead and called you Hitler. I see now from your photo that you do lack the mustache, so I suppose she's right.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics July 26, 2012 - 4:31pm

LOL, yeah I have a mortal hatred of mustaches, and I won't stand for them.