Bob Pastorella's picture
Bob Pastorella from Groves, Texas is reading murder books trying to stay hip, I'm thinking of you, and you're out there so Say your prayers, Say your prayers, Say your prayers January 9, 2013 - 9:56pm

I think the point Dwayne is trying to make is that you should do everything you can to protect your original idea. Seal it in a vault and throw away the key. Wear tin-foil on your head so 'they' can't steal it from you. But whatever you do, don't write a story about it. No, never do that. That's unthinkable. That way, years from now, when you're looking for something to read and you come across that exact same idea you had for a story that you locked away and didn't write anything about...well, this story that's published, it couldn't be the same idea, right? Because that idea is yours, and it's locked away, and no one can steal it, right?

 

On a serious note, it's not the idea that's important, it's the execution of the idea into a story, which probably has something that might look like a plot, and with characters and theme and it's dynamic and organic, and the ending is simultaneously logical yet unpredictable. Suddenly the idea, that original idea, is alive, and yes...yes now...it is truly your own original idea. Probably not too original, since they are no new ideas, but it's an original story written by you that can be shared with others, and that is something they can never ever take away from you. 

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 10, 2013 - 12:17am

Remember the light-bulb? That was just a rip-off of the torch, which was a clear derivative of the open fire, which was no more than a pale imitation of the sun. See? Nothing new under the sun.

[end sarcasm]

I think the disagreement stems from our different senses of what counts as an "idea." I tried to point this out earlier, but that part of my commenting seems to have been ignored. I haven't been saying people shouldn't write their stories. EDIT --- I did say something like "People who believe eveything has been done should only write manuals," which was just an aside which had less to do with the possibility of plagiarism and more to do with my belief that if you don't believe in the power of the imagination (cheesy as this sounds) to create, you will probably write stuff that is boring. If some writer I think is really great were to come to me and say, "JY, all my writing is pure, derivative bullshit. It's all just a rehash of shit I read before, which was itself all totally unoriginal tripe. I did not create anything new in all my pathetic, utterly artificial and impersonal works of shit-fiction," I would reconsider my opinion.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 10, 2013 - 11:11am

@J.Y. -

Remember the light-bulb? That was just a rip-off of the torch, which was a clear derivative of the open fire, which was no more than a pale imitation of the sun. See? Nothing new under the sun.

Well you might have meant it as sarcasim but is true. No one who did any of that had an orginal idea. They weren't trying too. They were working on refining and improving lighting.

"JY, all my writing is pure, derivative bullshit. It's all just a rehash of shit I read before, which was itself all totally unoriginal tripe. I did not create anything new in all my pathetic, utterly artificial and impersonal works of shit-fiction," I would reconsider my opinion.

And I would totally buy his work, because that is so honest I don't know what else to do with it.

And when I said till a writer accepts they aren't working on new ideas they shouldn't write anything I meant it. Not in a mean way, but literally. Till you sort your and you're you should stop writing till you get that settled in your head. You might put together two ideas that haven't been together, you might entertain, you might explain an idea better, or explain it to a group who haven't heard it before. That is the point of writing. And until you accept that you're chasing the wind.*

*I've realized my references are really hard to get, so I'm trying to point them out. Ecclesiastes, a book of the Bible, both says there is nothing new under the sun and refers to several things as chasing the wind. So I thought it would be neat to tie those together.

@Bob - That too. We are writers, not idea protectors. Stores get shop lifted, taxis get in car accidents, we get plagiarized. Just part of the game we want to play. Do the basics to defend (copy right, don't post online in full finished form unless you want to share) and move on.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 10, 2013 - 11:15am

^ This is a clear illustration of what I've said several times. I won't say it again.

Also, you cannot be serious that you would buy someone's book simply because they said it was unoriginal bullshit. You cannot really mean that. Your post, if taken at face value, is sheer madness.

Brandon's picture
Brandon from KCMO is reading Made to Break January 10, 2013 - 11:17am

Let me ask you guys something: do you consider the Snuggie a new idea?

Clearly all it does is combine two pre-existing things together (a robe and a blanket), but does the action of combining two pre-existing things actually create a new thing?

Full disclosure: There's no right answer. I just want to see if I can get two full grown men to argue over the intellectual merits of the Snuggie.  

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 10, 2013 - 11:28am

"For me to poop on."

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 10, 2013 - 11:38am

@J.Y.

Also, you cannot be serious that you would buy someone's book simply because they said it was unoriginal bullshit. You cannot really mean that. Your post, if taken at face value, is sheer madness.

 

In the last 10 minutes I've had my writing style called 'scat diction' by two people on here, and now I'm mad. You guys need to get out more, or at least stop thinking about poo so much.

I am serious. I'd literally buy their work if they describe it that way. Yes I'd really buy it. Maybe not new, at 30 bucks in hardback, but at least in paperback or such. Authors often discuss how great stuff they wrote is, in a effort to find readers. If you got the guts, are stupid enough to say that without being brave, have that off beat of a sense of humor, or some combination of those I'm curious as to what your writing looks like. Maybe curious in the same way people used to go to freak shows (not that the disabled are freaks), but curious none the less.

@Brandon - Snuggies are backwards robe, so no not new at all. I'm not even sure how it is two ideas together unless you think backward and robe together is a combo.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 10, 2013 - 12:06pm

Odd that you bother to defend that absurd claim, but little else.

I wonder what you actually mean when you talk about ideas.
Please explain how a light-bulb was not new when, before the light-bulb, there were no light-bulbs.
Do you really think that all sources of light are entirely "the same idea?"
Do you think that if someone could make a lamp out of photoreactive DNA from deep-sea fish or whatever, it'd be the "same idea" as a light-bulb? (Not saying this would work; just a hypothetical.)

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 10, 2013 - 12:32pm

@J.Y.

Odd that you bother to defend that absurd claim, but little else.

 

I don't consider that point to be obvious, so it seemed like it needed more explanation. Really I don't think it is that absurd. The most brilliant people are often their own worst critic. I would go in half expecting the guy to be great but not able to see it in himself, but mainly I'd go for the freak show.

I wonder what you actually mean when you talk about ideas.

Basic concepts. I'm using Merriam Webster definition "3 b : an indefinite or unformed conception" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idea

Please explain how a light-bulb was not new when, before the light-bulb, there were no light-bulbs.

The idea was, "I'm going to make something so I can see better in the dark." Same as the candle, the torch, and the lantern. New invention? Sure. New idea? No.

Do you really think that all sources of light are entirely "the same idea?"

No, just the intentional ones that only serve as light. Fire, while providing light, would be a different idea since it was multipurpose. Not a new idea, but different.

Do you think that if someone could make a lamp out of photoreactive DNA from deep-sea fish or whatever, it'd be the "same idea" as a light-bulb? 

Yeah, same idea. It is just another application of "I'm going to make something so I can see better in places that would other wise be dark." A complicated difficult application, but even genetically engineered glowing things isn't new anymore if you want to be into that. 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,962873,00.html

So even if "I'm going to make something so I can see better in places that would other wise be dark, with genetically altered creatures," was a new idea at one point, which I don't buy at all, that time is past.

 

Frank Chapel's picture
Frank Chapel from California is reading Thomas Ligotti's works January 10, 2013 - 1:41pm

Id just like to say we've stepped thru the looking glass. That is all.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 10, 2013 - 1:47pm

That is kind of how I feel every day when I walk out of my house Frank.

Frank Chapel's picture
Frank Chapel from California is reading Thomas Ligotti's works January 10, 2013 - 1:51pm

Gov't worker eh?

Frank Chapel's picture
Frank Chapel from California is reading Thomas Ligotti's works January 10, 2013 - 1:51pm

Gov't worker eh?

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 10, 2013 - 1:59pm

No, just more how people act shocks me.

Frank Chapel's picture
Frank Chapel from California is reading Thomas Ligotti's works January 10, 2013 - 2:15pm

Yea. You know what shocks me is hazard lights. Ppl park on red curbs, traffic lanes, in the middle of a fuken intersection and slaP that triangle and say "YA, HAY HAZARRD." I think about getting down and puncturing their tires with a combat knife.

On the other hand my wife (French) was shocked when she found out us 'Mericans slather our popcorn in butter.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 10, 2013 - 4:39pm

Definition 3B: one out of eleven possibilities. Okay, I get it. Now there is at least one clearly enunciated reason why this makes no sense.

Also, you failed to explain the "entirely" part. If you only want to answer parts of the questions, not much I can do about that.

If you have any interest in following through with your own method, please look up the word "new" and tell me which of those defintions you exclusively use.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 10, 2013 - 4:39pm

"defintions"

Bob Pastorella's picture
Bob Pastorella from Groves, Texas is reading murder books trying to stay hip, I'm thinking of you, and you're out there so Say your prayers, Say your prayers, Say your prayers January 11, 2013 - 7:44am

@Bob - That too. We are writers, not idea protectors. Stores get shop lifted, taxis get in car accidents, we get plagiarized. Just part of the game we want to play. Do the basics to defend (copy right, don't post online in full finished form unless you want to share) and move on.

Um, that part about protecting our ideas, with the vault and the tin-foil helmets, I hope you know I was being sarcastic. 

 

I just find it hard to think that there are new fiction ideas floating around out there. Original stories, sure, I get it. 

So let's take an idea. Here's one of mine I'll give away for free, and I think it's original: "An Academy Award winning actress decides to become an adult film star."

There's NEVER been a story about that idea. Sure, there's true-life stories about porno babes breaking into mainstream acting, but none of them have won, or even been nominated, for an Academy Award, so fiction-wise, it's original. 

And that's exactly how it will stay until I turn it into a story. Since you can't legally protect an idea, it's virtually fucking worthless. It's a new idea, or was until I mentioned it. But since it's just an idea, its value means nothing. And I'm willing to bet if I search long enough I could find a story that's very similar to my idea. But it would be different because...wait for it...someone else wrote it. And that's the point I'm trying to make, that it's not the idea that's original, it's the writer, the story, the execution of the idea. 

But this new idea that's never been done before? I think someone needs to check out the TV Tropes website. Whenever I starting thinking that maybe I thought of something no one else has thought of, I go there and BAM, dream shattered. 

Like kicked in the balls shattered. 

When I was in my 20's, I wrote a novel about a cop framed for murder because someone spliced footage of him into a videotape of the murder. Then Michael Crichton wrote Rising Sun. That bastard stole my idea. Not only that, but he did it better than me. I was so mad at him I wouldn't read his books for years. Years later I realized that my idea was actually quite old, since he probably thought of it before I did since the book came out around the same time I started mine.

Oh well, there are no new, original ideas out there. Just original writers. 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 11, 2013 - 2:59am

@Bob I was agreeing with you. I reworded it so others could follow along.

@J.Y. - I don't see how any of the other 11 apply, and entirely seemed answered to me. But in short it is entirely the same idea because the motivation (a desire for light) and the obstacle (darkness) and the method (make stuff that lights up) are the same.

alexgamen's picture
alexgamen from Argentina is reading 1Q84; The Way of Kings January 11, 2013 - 6:24am

@Bob - I agree with everything you said except this:

 

Like kicked in the balls shattered.

 

I've had my balls kicked, and it's more of a squishy terror feeling. If balls could shatter... my god, the horror.

 

 

fport's picture
fport from Canada is reading The World Until Yesterday - Jared Diamond January 11, 2013 - 9:34am

I'd say alexgamen. I was one of those kids that got back pressure to the bowels from a bully who would catch me as I went in the second darkroom door with a kneelift and the ballerina who would try to put them into my throat.

If they shattered would you walk around with a tinkling sound as well as the courdory swish?

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 11, 2013 - 11:06am

Dwayne --- If there is a thing which is both green and yellow, but mostly green, you don't call it "yellow," because it's not entirely yellow. If it's mostly green, you call it "green" or "yellowish-green" or something else. If something is new but has a few elements which are the same as something else, it's not entirely the same. It might be mostly the same, or only a little the same, but it's not entirely the same.

the motivation (a desire for light) and the obstacle (darkness) and the method (make stuff that lights up)

That is not one idea, even by your chosen defintion: 3B.

You cannot do it.

Jonathan Riley's picture
Jonathan Riley from Memphis, Tennessee is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland January 11, 2013 - 11:28am

The idea was, "I'm going to make something so I can see better in the dark." Same as the candle, the torch, and the lantern. New invention? Sure. New idea? No.

^How come the idea is limited to this. Is the idea not "I'm going to make something so I can see better in the dark that can't burn down my house."  Or in J.Y.'s scenario, something that helps you see that is also energy and cost effecient. Just because there is already light, doesn't mean that there can't be new ways to make it and use it. According to Dwayne fire was not an idea, because it does the same thing the Sun does, except the sun doesn't help you see at night. Fire does. But fire can't help you see in your car, unless you drive arround with candles in it, that can be quite dangerous. So the lightbulbs do something that fire and the sun can't. So it is new.  

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 11, 2013 - 11:34am

Good points, JR.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 11, 2013 - 11:40am

It feels like you are nit picking, but honestly no I don't agree with any of that.

You might have a point on the yellow and green thing, excepted yellowish green was thought of a long time ago. Even things that look like new ideas aren't when you examine them. At best they are a new application, or one you seldom see.

Yes it is a idea by that definition. "I'll make something to light up this dankness." Most ideas regarding problems have those 3 parts.

Not sure what you think it is I can't do. Thing you are missing is that people haven't changed in a very long time. We still want the same stuff, care about the same things, and so we have the same problems. So we have the same ideas. Like we need to feel special, so despite not being able to put of anyone in history having a new idea you claim it happens. If someone had a really, truly new idea we wouldn't have to have this debate. You'd be like, "Don't you remember X who thought of Y last year?" And I'd have to be like, "Oh right. My bad."

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 11, 2013 - 11:46am

For you, the one who selectively argues only certain points and limits the word "idea" to the second part of the tertiary definition, to say anyone is nit-picking is ludicrous.

The fact that yellow-green is not a new phenomenon is irrelevant to its application as an analogy. You did not address this by saying "yellowish green was thought of a long time ago."

Jonathan Riley's picture
Jonathan Riley from Memphis, Tennessee is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland January 11, 2013 - 11:48am

What would be the point Dewayne? You would just refute it as being a new idea. You would say that invention of central heating wasn't a new idea because animals in the wild are coated with fur. Plumbing wasn't new because wolves bury their shit. And then we would disagree.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 11, 2013 - 11:50am

Plumbing wasn't new because wolves bury their shit.

lol

Flybywrite's picture
Flybywrite from Rocky Point, Long Island is reading The Bride Comes to Yellow Sky, by Stephen Crane January 11, 2013 - 12:18pm

I have now arrived to end this thread.  It is what I do.  I would like to close this one with the stupid idea that there has never been an ape like the original King Kong or lizard like the original Godzilla or writer like the original Barton Fink.  But even if its the case the afterlife is one big mish-mosh made out of infinitely recombinant abstracts, endless possibilities, and billions and billions of subjective essences that refuse to stop mating, I'm still going to do whatever I can to never, ever, ever see Taylor swift live or Barton Fink 2. 

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 11, 2013 - 12:33pm

The afterlife?

Bob Pastorella's picture
Bob Pastorella from Groves, Texas is reading murder books trying to stay hip, I'm thinking of you, and you're out there so Say your prayers, Say your prayers, Say your prayers January 11, 2013 - 12:48pm

Ah yes, the rhetorical agrument in all it's glory. Debate on, please. 

 

Meanwhile, back at the Ranch, Bob's figured out a way to get through all those vaults and tin-foil helmets. Yes, our dear readers, he's stealing ideas, and turning them into stories, making them original and new. He's nothing but a hack and petty thief and no idea is safe now. 

 

With fire-breathing unicorns that fart kaleidoscopes of multicolored glitter angels with wings made of stone. 

 

alexgamen's picture
alexgamen from Argentina is reading 1Q84; The Way of Kings January 11, 2013 - 1:54pm

I have now arrived to end this thread.

 

Good luck with that. God knows I've tried :)

Meanwhile, on another Earth, original poster Ahmet is laughing maniacally at our ramblings.

 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 11, 2013 - 7:12pm

@Riely

How come the idea is limited to this. Is the idea not "I'm going to make something so I can see better in the dark that can't burn down my house." 

Electric fires happen, and I'm betting the first people to make light bulbs in a era of less dependable wiring new that. Are the records of them making such claims? I wasn't able to find any on a quick search.

Or in J.Y.'s scenario, something that helps you see that is also energy and cost effecient.

Not new idea, same thing the guy making candles thought.

Just because there is already light, doesn't mean that there can't be new ways to make it and use it.

Ways yes. Ideas no.

According to Dwayne fire was not an idea, because it does the same thing the Sun does, except the sun doesn't help you see at night. Fire does.

It isn't a new idea because it is a natural event that people took advantage of, not a invention.

But fire can't help you see in your car, unless you drive arround with candles in it, that can be quite dangerous. So the lightbulbs do something that fire and the sun can't. So it is new.

New invention yes. New idea, no. Putting bacon on a burger wasn't a new idea, it was two older ideas. Bacon, and burgers. And coming up with a better way to do something isn't a new idea, it is improvement and the old idea. And even if someone does do something that hasn't been done before, that doesn't make the idea new. People had been trying to come up with better lighting for a while, the light blube was just an old idea finally working better.

What would be the point Dewayne? You would just refute it as being a new idea. You would say that invention of central heating wasn't a new idea because animals in the wild are coated with fur. Plumbing wasn't new because wolves bury their shit. And then we would disagree.

For the point, see below. But I'd refute it because you haven't brought up a new idea yet. Central heating wasn't a new idea because it was a better air duct on things that already existed, air conditioners and heaters. Which were the next step after boilers, which came after Franklin stoves, and a bunch of other steps between. Innovation comes from putting together things we didn't use together, not from new ideas. It is like chasing your own tail. Even if the dog catches it they don't get anything they didn't already have.

 

@J.Y.

For you, the one who selectively argues only certain points and limits the word "idea" to the second part of the tertiary definition, to say anyone is nit-picking is ludicrous.

 

I'd say 3 b and 4 are the most commonly used, with 5 and 6 being close behind. 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idea

1
a : a transcendent entity that is a real pattern of which existing things are imperfect representations
b : a standard of perfection : ideal
c : a plan for action : design
2
archaic : a visible representation of a conception : a replica of a pattern
3
a obsolete : an image recalled by memory
b : an indefinite or unformed conception
c : an entity (as a thought, concept, sensation, or image) actually or potentially present to consciousness
4
: a formulated thought or opinion
5
: whatever is known or supposed about something <a child's idea of time>
6
: the central meaning or chief end of a particular action or situation
7
Christian Science : an image in Mind

That being said, thoughts, opinions, central meanings, and chief ends have all been had before. If anything I'd say they support my idea better, but it seemed unfair to use one I supported less because it was easier to defend. Do you feel there is a better definition?

The fact that yellow-green is not a new phenomenon is irrelevant to its application as an analogy. You did not address this by saying "yellowish green was thought of a long time ago."

This is a point we disagree on. You choice to bring in an analogy, and I argued back by analogy. It seems fair.

The point I'm getting at, which you seem to either miss or be unwilling to address is I don't see evidence regroup ideas together counts as a new idea. Secondarily, I literally don't think humans are able to think of new thoughts, the billions of us who have lived over the years have had all the ideas that we can have. You disagree, which I won't pretend makes any sense to me, but it is a free country. Well it is here, not sure where you are J.Y.

Seb's picture
Seb from Thanet, Kent, UK January 11, 2013 - 3:03pm

So Shakespeare thought of nothing new? Dickens? Hemingway? McCarthy?

How about Tesla? Einstein? Freud?

Admittedly we've got lazy as a species over the last fifty years, as we're just doubling up on everything we've ever done, but to say we cannot create original thoughts is ridiculous. How would we have invented the washing machine?

They make bendy glass smartphones now. To assume all thoughts have already been had is to be close-minded in an absolute sense.

And now, to end this thread, I call upon the (self-appointed) wisdom of David Icke, former-sports-commentator-turned-conspiracy-messiah to tell you all about the Reptilians that rule the world from the moon, using the Illuminati. If you haven't heard of it, I swear to you this is genuine. And he swears it's all true. Honest.

Bob Pastorella's picture
Bob Pastorella from Groves, Texas is reading murder books trying to stay hip, I'm thinking of you, and you're out there so Say your prayers, Say your prayers, Say your prayers January 11, 2013 - 3:05pm

So Shakespeare thought of nothing new?

 

No, actually, he's one of the most famous plagerists ever. 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 11, 2013 - 7:11pm

So Shakespeare thought of nothing new?

No.

Dickens?

No.

Hemingway?

No.

McCarthy?

 

No.

How about Tesla?

No.

Einstein?

No.

Freud?

No. All of those people did work based on those who came before them.

Admittedly we've got lazy as a species over the last fifty years, as we're just doubling up on everything we've ever done, but to say we cannot create original thoughts is ridiculous.

Ridiculous? The logic holds, you just don't like it. From a spiritual perspective I'm not aware of any religion that claims anything will be new and different, science says our brains are unchanged from well before recorded history. So the major traditions of the thought don't seem to support the concept of new ideas.

How would we have invented the washing machine?

 

My guess is that like everything it was a step by step process, each a slight improvement on existing idea. James King's drum machine owed a lot to the earlier drumless versions. Alva J. Fisher's first electric one was based heavily on James King. Same process, nothing here looks new.

They make bendy glass smartphones now. To assume all thoughts have already been had is to be close-minded in an absolute sense.

And phones went through how many different small steps based on the work before them? I don't assume, I'm looking at the known evidence. I see none to support new ideas, so I consider the issue dead. And for the record I don't think closed minded or absolutes are bad, we need a bit more of them.

 

And now, to end this thread, I call upon the (self-appointed) wisdom of David Icke, former-sports-commentator-turned-conspiracy-messiah to tell you all about the Reptilians that rule the world from the moon, using the Illuminati. If you haven't heard of it, I swear to you this is genuine. And he swears it's all true. Honest.

To me it is odd that you don't get that this is the best evidence you have of a new idea, because I have no clue how he got to this.

fport's picture
fport from Canada is reading The World Until Yesterday - Jared Diamond January 11, 2013 - 5:16pm

/me checks browser window

This is not a usenet newsgroup, honest to terwilligers. Dwayne, one chill pill eh.

Jonathan Riley's picture
Jonathan Riley from Memphis, Tennessee is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland January 11, 2013 - 7:19pm

Edit.

Dwayne wins. No person came up with the idea of music (We invented instruments but music wasn't a human's idea) ever because nature makes it's own music, birds chirp, thunders roll, wind whistles, Everything is imitation of creation, we humans are pretty much worthless.  No human has ever had an original thought.

This depresses me.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 11, 2013 - 7:25pm

@Riley - 

Sure someone at some point in a cave had a new idea. There was a first. I'm just saying I think the last one was had long before the recorded history we have access to began, and this is a new era.

Putting bacon on a burger wasn't a new idea, it was two older ideas. Bacon, and burgers.

Even if you are right, it only shows there aren't any new ideas and even people who accept that have trouble taking it far enough. It doesn't show there are new ideas.

Sewage systems have went through a lot of versions, and each was based off ideas learned before them. There was never a big break between the old and new ways. We didn't go from a pit to modern sewage treatment plants. Even if we had it is still the same idea, "Let's get rid of and avoid human waste."

@fport - I'm fine. 

I'm not sure why you guys need there to be new ideas. It doesn't make you less human or diminish you, we don't lose anything. It is just an observation. If I was shown to be wrong it would be, "Well fancy that. I'm ordering a pizza. And I'll get some apples on it, that is new right?" I'm only on this topic because I wonder why someone would bother to debate against it, so why is this so important to you guys?

Jonathan Riley's picture
Jonathan Riley from Memphis, Tennessee is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland January 11, 2013 - 7:32pm

@ Dwayne, I didn't know you were responding to my last post, so I didn't mean to edit it before you could reply, but quite honestly I'm tired of the debate. Even if the "idea" isn't new, there is always a new way to do something that hasn't been done in that way before . Those "New ways" are worth protecting.

Brandon's picture
Brandon from KCMO is reading Made to Break January 11, 2013 - 8:14pm

Dwayne wins.

Dwayne feels like a big strong man now.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 11, 2013 - 8:17pm

[For the win]

Dwayne, if you really use 3B exclusively, then you cannot distinguish whether or not any "idea" is new, because the "conception" is yet "indefinite or unformed." No form, no analysis, and no telling whether or not it is new. So there. You've been contradicting yourself this entire time.

You cannot do it.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 12, 2013 - 5:12am

@J.Y. - Once the conception is no longer 'definite or unformed' isn't it a plan?

@Brandon

Dwayne feels like a big strong man now.

And you get to feel like the guy who is too cool to debate!

Brandon's picture
Brandon from KCMO is reading Made to Break January 12, 2013 - 3:55pm

Time-management, dude. Some of us have deadlines to hit.

You may have noticed that not too many members beyond J.Y. get heavily involved in these little skirmishes with you, and it's not for lack of intellect or an abundance of "cool factor." You've made over 2,000 posts on these forums, have tirelessly debated a myriad of topics in which you invested many hours and thousands upon thousands of words. And you take pride in your debates...I can see that. I think we all can see that.

The problem is most of us are here to become better writers and/or get published, so if it's a choice between doing that or debating with you...logic dictates to apply oneself to the task that yields the most benefit. I mean, that makes sense, right? Invest time in the thing that yields the most return.

I suppose you could argue that point if you want: debating with Dwayne vs. working on a project.

I can sell a project for money, further my career, etc. I can't do that with a debate with you.

So it's not really a matter of being "too cool." It's more: "how is debating with Dwayne not a waste of time?"

I have the advantage of being able to just sit back and watch you and J.Y. go at and he doesn't seem to be getting much out of it. Basically, I'm choosing not to repeat his error.

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig January 12, 2013 - 8:39pm

Original ideas are like art, amirite?

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 12, 2013 - 9:34pm

Original ideas are like art, amirite?

Sparrow --- Lol. I wondered if someone would bring that up.

@J.Y. - Once the conception is no longer 'definite or unformed' isn't it a plan?

Dwayne --- This question makes multiple kinds of nonsense.

not too many members beyond J.Y. get heavily involved in these little skirmishes with you ... he doesn't seem to be getting much out of it. Basically, I'm choosing not to repeat his error.

Brandon --- Whatever.

A: I don't regularly argue with Dwayne, but yes, I do like arguing about shit.
B: If you watch TV, movies, play video games, you probably waste as much time as I did in this forum "debate." This is one form my entertainment takes.

Sell another story so you can buy worm-pills for your Pomeranians. I get you want to encourage writers to actually write, but there's simply no cause or need for your jabs at my activity. I think erotica sucks, but I don't pop up and tell people not to write it. (If you really do write all day and don't fool around with any sort of entertainment, then I guess I'm talking out of my ass here, but c'mon.)

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 13, 2013 - 1:38am

@Brandon - If the debates didn't knock loose a few ideas related to writing I wouldn't bother with myself. And a lot of mine is done when I am writing as a break when I get worn out or my hand hurts from longhand, so I get that isn't everyone's process.

My point was that you take the time to read the thread and smart off, but not 'get involved.' And that just seems silly, like it takes almost as much time.

@J.Y. - I think it works. If you really have something formed out, it seems like you've left behind the idea phase and moved over into planning.

Idea - I'll get in shape.

Plan - I'll go to the gym weekdays for a 45 minutes after work of either weight lifting or cardio, jog Saturdays, and take Sunday off.

fport's picture
fport from Canada is reading The World Until Yesterday - Jared Diamond January 13, 2013 - 10:29am

Idea - I'll get in shape. Plan - I'll go to the gym weekdays for a 45 minutes after work of either weight lifting or cardio, jog Saturdays, and take Sunday off.

For me new or original doesn't really matter. We do stand on the shoulders of those who came before and the experiences they had. That's the world we are born into, the one we inherit.

It's when something changes someone else's perspective. That's what stories are about. Helping others see something 'new' in a different light.

"The story is a powerful medium because it bypasses logical defenses to penetrate to the emotions. As the author, you have a responsibility to employ moral and edifying themes that will strengthen your audience. This, I believe, is the purpose of art."        Stolen.

Going in circles to make a point is a waste of time. Make the statement, refute, agree and move on.

jyh's picture
jyh from VA is reading whatever he feels like January 13, 2013 - 12:01pm

Idea - I'll get in shape.

I agree one could call this an idea, or a thought. It's a thought without specifics on how it will actually be done, but it is complete insofar as it can be understood. But then, what sort of shape? Are we talking weight-loss or body-building? Are we talking full body-modification into a living wolfman? These are all possible "shapes." If someone designed a shape which did not already exist, though it might be somewhat similar to extant shapes, it would be a new shape. We cannot determine whether the shape will be new simply by reading the statement, "I'll get in shape."

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated January 13, 2013 - 1:12pm

@J.Y. - I agree with you. You can't tell from an idea what exactly it means or how it will look if carried to completion. That is my point. Ideas are vague, and need a lot of work to even be a plan, much less become real. And since they are so vague, there are only so many, and so there aren't any new ones left.

@Ceylan - And since there aren't any new ones you can't protect them.