swordfighter's picture
swordfighter August 20, 2012 - 12:22pm

Hi all

hope you all are having a good day

I know you need to grab the readers attention as fast as you can, but how long do you have to hook them 5, 10, 15 pages? before they put the book down and find another one. I know a lot of it my depend on the reader but what do you all think?

thanks

Robert

Hector Acosta's picture
Hector Acosta from Dallas is reading Fletch August 20, 2012 - 12:25pm

Opening line. Opening paragraph at best.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters August 20, 2012 - 12:31pm

Yeah, Hector is correct.  If you don't have them by the end of page one, forget it.  But first paragraph is the most they're going to read in the bookstore.  If you're that lucky.

GaryP's picture
GaryP from Denver is reading a bit of this and that August 20, 2012 - 12:45pm

And you have to hook your editor, as well. With a short story, it's the first paragraph. Novel, maybe an editor will give you an entire page.

Where was I reading this. An editor was talking about the slush pile. This was in the analog days, so he'd open an envelope, pull the manuscript out far enough to read the first paragraph, and if unhooked, back it went into the envelope.

Stacy Kear's picture
Stacy Kear from Bucyrus, Ohio lives in New Jersey is reading The Art of War August 20, 2012 - 5:16pm

You lost me at 

hope you all are having a good day

 

 

OtisTheBulldog's picture
OtisTheBulldog from Somerville, MA is reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz August 20, 2012 - 5:59pm

You need to get the attention in that first paragraph, but that first page is paramount. I'll send out just that first page to trusted readers and ask if they're interested and would want to keep going.

JonnyGibbings's picture
JonnyGibbings August 20, 2012 - 11:32pm

Yep - as said above, first para and page. A short run up to the reader having a question. What, how or why? We as humans want answers.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated August 21, 2012 - 7:19am

And that is if the first sentence and paragraph aren't long. If you go on and on folks might not finish it.

Gordon Highland's picture
Gordon Highland from Kansas City is reading Secondhand Souls by Christopher Moore August 21, 2012 - 8:55am

One of the reasons I actually started writing prose fiction was frustration with the "explosion in the opening paragraph" requirement for getting a screenplay read. I thought novel readers were patient people, and I could roll things out slowly. Come to find out it's no less true. Thankfully that lesson took hold early.

swordfighter's picture
swordfighter August 21, 2012 - 12:19pm

thanks all that that help

Robert

Sound's picture
Sound from Azusa, CA is reading Greener Pastures by Michael Wehunt August 21, 2012 - 1:26pm

Stacy said it best.

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks August 25, 2012 - 12:20pm

My writing professor assigned a creative non-fiction essay about a turning point in our lives. When she was discussing ways to start the essay, she said, "If you're writing about the time your car hit a brick wall head-on, your opening paragraph should start with you looking at the wall as it looms over your steering wheel -- and it should stop right before your car actually hits it. The next paragraph should start with you waking up that morning."

If it isn't done right, it can be a cheap, obvious trick, but it's one of the most effective ways to grab your reader's attention.

Bookie's picture
Bookie from Birmingham, England is reading The Contortionists Handbook August 25, 2012 - 12:26pm

Don't write for the reader. Write for yourself. You can't please everybody, and no matter what you write there will be people who love it and people who hate it. Pacing is difficult, but don't worry about it too much, just write and after the first draft, if there isn't a more than 50% of what you've written that needs to be thrown away, you're not doing it right.

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. August 25, 2012 - 12:33pm

I'd suggest: Write for yourself, but rewrite for the reader.

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. August 25, 2012 - 12:38pm

Another way to hook somebody really quickly it to present two ideas that seem like contradictions, then make them related in some way.  "The car crash happened in slow motion" is an example (not a great one) that shows something that happens quickly and without warning and turns it into a slowed down experience.  "She stabbed him 47 times in the chest, each time with love and care" or "He stabbed her in the throat so as to not ruin the silk blouse."  Violence and love.

With the stabbing examples, you would then show how the shirt was something that stood for more to the killer than the actual woman did.  With the woman stabbing, you would try to show how each stab was an act intended to show how much she cared for the victim.

Those kind of openings always grab me.  You have a paragraph or two in a short story.  In a novel, you've got up to 10 pages (but the first paragraph, first page, and second page better have something to keep me reading for even 10 pages (2500 words - if I'm not interested by then, I'm out).

Tom1960's picture
Tom1960 from Athens, Georgia is reading Blindness by Jose Saramago August 25, 2012 - 2:01pm

I think you have to hook the reader quick.  To se how its done look at some of your favorite books or stories..  Read the first few  paragraphs of each chapter.  More times than not you'll see a good example of how to hook the reader.

GaryP's picture
GaryP from Denver is reading a bit of this and that August 26, 2012 - 5:31am

As I said early, I agree you have to hook quickly (especially if you have no track record), but to be contrarian, how many have heard: The first 100 pages were slow, but then it really took off. I've read novels by authors I really like and had to slog through the first 50, 100, 150 pages of the 1000 page novel to get to where the story gets interesting. George R. R. Martin's current opus. I couldn't read it because the first book was just a blur of names and after 20 or 30 pages, I lost all hope. Someone told me that after the first third (or was it half?), it really took off. Those books are wildly popular, which suprises me because of how difficult it is to get into the first one.

Gordon Highland's picture
Gordon Highland from Kansas City is reading Secondhand Souls by Christopher Moore August 26, 2012 - 6:53am

That is a huge peeve of mine—established author or not—when they introduce too many charcters too quickly right up front. My brain doesn't work that way. I need gradual stage entrances to help me associate their characteristics with the names, instead of having to read the first few pages over and over again trying to memorize all that.

But yes, being established buys you reader credit and patience. It's probably one reason so many debut novels are often their best, where they're putting it all on the line to make that first impression. That, and you have your entire life to write your first book, and only a couple of years for each thereafter.

Nick Wilczynski's picture
Nick Wilczynski from Greensboro, NC is reading A Dance with Dragons by George R.R. Martin August 26, 2012 - 8:43am

Like, show some tits.

Scott MacDonald's picture
Scott MacDonald from UK is reading Perfidia August 26, 2012 - 4:36pm

Agreed, grab the attention early.  Although this doesn't need to be done through action, it can be done through establishment of a writing style that drags the reader in.  Couple of examples:

"When he woke in the woods in the dark and the cold of the night he'd reach out to touch the child sleeping beside him. Nights dark beyond darkness and the days more gray each one than what had gone before. Like the onset of some cold glaucoma dimming away the world." (The Road, Cormac McCarthy)

"There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim, Dim being really dim, and we sat in the Korova Milkbar making up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening, a flip dark chill winter bastard though dry." (A Clockwork Orange, Anthony Burgess)

That was all I had to read of these and I was hooked, despite the fact that nothing really happens. But some of those phrases, "dark beyond darkness" and "flip dark chill winter bastard", set me up to expect more and I was committed to parting with cash without ever reading any further.  Okay, admitted, these are particularly powerful books, but the principle holds true for other works.

 

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks August 26, 2012 - 5:03pm

The reverse holds true for that, though -- I was never able to buy into McCarthy's writing style and it stopped me from reading his work. Remember that readers are all subjective creatures and that you will never, ever be able to please everyone. What hooks someone else may not hook me, but I may not be the right audience for your work.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated August 26, 2012 - 5:35pm

If you really want people to read something, you have to have some idea who is going to read it and what will grab them. Not much chick lit starts with a graphic murder, etc. 

Scott MacDonald's picture
Scott MacDonald from UK is reading Perfidia August 27, 2012 - 2:41am

@Courtney - absolutely agree.  These were just a couple of examples that lit personal fires for me.  Establishing a style that grabs the reader is key in establishing your readership, and, for me it's the prose that carries the action, not the action itself, that gets me to buy a book.  The novel could be a knockabout, hundred-mile an hour thrill ride(tm), but if I find the style tiresome I'm not going to keep going.  Crafting those opening sentences into something special I think is very important.

Not much chick lit starts with a graphic murder, etc.

@Dwayne - no, but I like the idea.  Or better yet, a novel that establishes itself as a clichéd romance only to segue, without warning, into something like Hostel somewhere towards the end.  Two hundred pages of will-they, won't-they and when they finally get together have the last chapter start something like "A warm dawn sunlight woke him, mirroring the warmth he felt inside from the night of passion that had preceded it.  He began to stretch his arms in satisfaction, hearing the clink of metal against the bed post before feeling the handcuffs prevent him from further movement.  A shadow crossed in front of the window and he gazed on the figure of Lianna, his love, naked, except for a welding mask, and carrying a blow-torch and a cheese-grater." The rest just writes itself.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated August 27, 2012 - 5:37am

@Scott - even then the chick lit with a surprise doesn't START with a graphic murder. 

Scott MacDonald's picture
Scott MacDonald from UK is reading Perfidia August 27, 2012 - 6:35am

Fair point, I was just riffing on an idea.

swordfighter's picture
swordfighter August 27, 2012 - 9:31am

thanks all

thats been great help especially the parts "can't please everyone" Courtney. and "have some idea who is going to read it and what will grab them." Dwayne  I was tryingto write to please everyone (that was stupid) thaks to everyone i appreciate it evety much it all help.

Robert

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated August 27, 2012 - 10:02am

I'd suggest trying to write to upset everyone. Doesn't work any better, but it's more fun.

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. August 27, 2012 - 12:29pm

That expains some of your posts, Dwayne.  :)

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated August 27, 2012 - 2:26pm

No, this is me be honest. Writing to upset people is something I save for fiction, although it is is playing to my strengths. 

Brandon's picture
Brandon from KCMO is reading Made to Break August 27, 2012 - 4:43pm

You're proficient in upsetting people?

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated August 28, 2012 - 4:41am

I'd say that is a fair statement. 

Brandon's picture
Brandon from KCMO is reading Made to Break August 28, 2012 - 6:52am

Hmm, that's unfortunate.

Nick Wilczynski's picture
Nick Wilczynski from Greensboro, NC is reading A Dance with Dragons by George R.R. Martin August 28, 2012 - 9:31am

Dwayne reads everyone else's posts in his angriest voice and then likes to pretend that he controls other people's emotions on the internet.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated August 28, 2012 - 11:18am

Whatever makes you happy to think Nick.

Brandon's picture
Brandon from KCMO is reading Made to Break August 28, 2012 - 11:26am

"Whatever makes you happy to think Nick."

That sounded passive-aggressive. I would like some of this overt honesty you're known for.

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. August 28, 2012 - 11:29am

I like lies better.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters August 28, 2012 - 12:01pm

Did someone say "lies"?

Mckay Williams's picture
Mckay Williams from Oakland, California is reading slowly... August 28, 2012 - 12:28pm

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated August 28, 2012 - 1:47pm

I think that might be the first time someone call my aggression passive Brandon.

Bob Pastorella's picture
Bob Pastorella from Groves, Texas is reading murder books trying to stay hip, I'm thinking of you, and you're out there so Say your prayers, Say your prayers, Say your prayers August 28, 2012 - 8:37pm

First sentence must hook, period. Without that, you've got nothing. It doesn't depend on your writing style, or being controversial, it just must hook the reader. Whenever I'm looking at books to buy, I always read the first sentence. If it doesn't grab me, I'm probably not going to buy it. Sure, I probably pass on some good books, but if it doesn't grab me at that first sentence, then how long do I have to read it before it does grab me? With editors, the above is even more true. They literally don't have time to dredge through your pages waiting for your story to get good. Hook 'em fast and sure with the first sentence, then make every sentence after that even better. 

Richard's picture
Richard from St. Louis is reading various anthologies August 31, 2012 - 10:01am

first sentence
first paragraph
first page
first scene
first chapter

your call. but every step you take down the path that is your story (or novel) you run the risk of losing your audience. hook them sooner, and you have a chance to keep them interested. i'll have a column up in September here at LR over at Storyville that's all about narrative hooks. definitely worth checking out, hopefully it'll help.
 

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. August 31, 2012 - 10:28am

I'm not trying to suck your dick, but every Storyville article has been worth checking out.  Some are basic, and some are advanced, but there's a lot to be learned (or re-learned and reinforced) from every article.

Stacy Kear's picture
Stacy Kear from Bucyrus, Ohio lives in New Jersey is reading The Art of War August 31, 2012 - 10:30am

That was a mouthful Howie. 

Richard's picture
Richard from St. Louis is reading various anthologies August 31, 2012 - 11:22am

thanks, BH. lol, stacy.

underpurplemoon's picture
underpurplemoon from PDX August 31, 2012 - 3:01pm

Like, show some tits.

Yes.