I'm a newbie to LR, but not to the writing scene. I wanted to share my first reactions to what I've found here and hope that others may choose to do so as well.
What drew me to become a paying member within 48 hours of discovering this place was the workshop. I joined because, even though I am a published author, my publications are mostly in the nonfiction arena and it is my intent to become a published novelist. I began writing over 20 years ago and quickly joined a writer's critiqueing group where I found like-minded people who were willing to help each other by offering serious and well-considered critiques of each others' works. I found that it sharpened my eye for detail and increased my knowledge base by giving me access to others whose insights were beyond priceless.
I discovered that the critiques here--in my opinion, at least--are far more astute than what I found in most of the other on-line programs. There is no, "I liked it." reviews. The reviews give rationale for comments and the rationale shows a skill level rather than an "interest" in reading and writing. I found that serious publication takes one part imagination, one part storytelling skill and ninety-eight parts clinical skill at editing and revising.
The posted works for review are varied, but, to me, at least, most show that the writers take their craft seriously and have at least polished their manuscripts before submitting them. "Misteaks" tend to be the kind even an editor could "overllook" because they are buried. The writers here show that they understand issues like voice and POV, structuring and polishing. What's missing from most of the blurbs I have read is that amateurish insistence that "I won't change a word of what I wrote."
So, I dived in and began reviewing and commenting. It is too early to determine the final outcome of the process because I still am working in isolation. It takes a while before others will develop a trust and that is natural and proper.
Next will be posting my first piece of work. I need to learn to trust the process so my first post will not be the major work of fiction--a novel--that I have begun but a piece of work that needs opinions because it is a radical approach to the teaching of writing. It is a fictionalized piece of nonfiction using fairytale characters to develop a single concept in the art and craft of writing. I'm preparing it for post. It is called "Little Red Writing Hood and The Big Bad Word Wolf." I know I had fun writing it but I do not have a clue as to how readers who are also students of writing will view it. The opinions of my peers will help me determine its efficacy before I make the decision as to whether to promote it.
I'd love to hear why you are here and where you feel you are going as well. Writing is a lonely endeavor. Learning about writing doesn't have to be.
I'm a little bit of a newb, too. I joined Litreactor because, as you say, writing is a lonely endeavor. My friends are upset with me when I choose to hang out with my computer and my writing instead of hanging out with them. My roommates don't understand why I lock my bedroom door and ignore their knocking, despite my constant reminders to them that I'm trying to write something and they are just so distracting. I make friends with people who write well, but who have no desire or confidence to pursue their talents. (In their defense, they are so talented in other things, so I understand when they wish to focus on their other strengths.) Needless to say, without others to share my passion with and with a lack of understanding from friends and family, it's easy for me to lose focus.
I came across Litreactor in my search for a writing community that was both diverse and welcoming, and I love it! I'm not a paying member yet, but so far I have been introduced to some witty folk and fun conversation. I plan on joining the ranks of the paid and proper soon enough.
I'm writing a novel (YA/MG) that I hope to turn into a series. Hopefully I'll gain a bit of confidence and post my work up one of these days for some serious critique, but for now, I hope to make friends and give helpful feedback on their work.
+I now have spent a week doing reviews of other people's writing and found the process exciting and rewarding. In critiquing, it brought back knowledge I need in order to do my own edits and revisions. It brought back all the shibboleths that books about writing pass on as "secrets." Phrases drift through my brain; repetitions after long years of preparation: "lose the adverbs," "active verbs make active sentences," "continuity makes a story shine," "dialogue isn't speech," "cliche characters make cliche stories," "a tag is a tag, not an excuse to find a purple verb and an overstuffed adjective," "the reader is king, the writer is servant."
Now, I approach the time when I have to post my first work for others to review.
"Trust the process," says my inner risk-taker in a soft whisper with a figurative pat on the shoulder.
"Bleep that!" my ego retorts.
The moment we hit the send key for our first piece, is, I believe, the moment we become part of this group. Until then, we remain on the sidelines--pretenders in the world of writing, voyeurs behind a safe two-way mirror when all the action is going on just across an invisible boundary.
This weekend, I will be all-in. Today, I will select my first piece for review. Will others take to it kindly? I hope not. I know it is far from perfect and this piece of bread needs to have the crust trimmed, not have butter slathered on it.
Writing is leaving your ego at the door after you have written a piece. When you post it, your creation no longer belongs to you. It belongs to whomever reads it.
I have mixed feelings.
There are many talented writers here, and it is worthwhile to read and participate in the forums, as far as that goes.
On the other hand, I would like to shake the hand of the evil genius who decided we should pay him/her to give each other our opinions on one another's work. I find the idea mildly and amusingly insane. Feel free to pay Litreactor for my two cents worth. I am sure they won't mind.
If the money aspect bothers you at all, you've never submitted work here. It's worth it.
And it keeps the site up.
I'm here because I've been a "writer" for so long but don't have much to show for it. I want to finally finish the novel I've been dragging around with me for years, and finish the other ones I've had in mind.
I'm a student living off of financial aid so I can't pay for the workshops yet, but once I am out of school I plan to participate. For now, what I really need is motivation and support.
I'm here because I've been a "writer" for so long but don't have much to show for it. I want to finally finish the novel I've been dragging around with me for years, and finish the other ones I've had in mind.
I'm a student living off of financial aid so I can't pay for the workshops yet, but once I am out of school I plan to participate. For now, what I really need is motivation and support.
You could sell some blood plasma, a trip or two would cover the workshop. I think you would take quite nicely to it. Can you non-workshoppers see any of the craft essays? Those are worth the price of admission alone.
It's cool to learn and discuss things with writers who are a lot better than me and to see people improve exponentially. When you're working on a piece and focusing on improving certain aspects of your writing it is nice to have the blinders taken off and remind you of all the fundamental things that can improve your work, and it's nice to give other people what they need.
I try to focus on workshopping short stories because it just seems to be the right thing to do at this end of the writing career, and it drives home the fundamentals. It would be nice to have publications and people already sniffing around for me if I were querying a novel.
Can you non-workshoppers see any of the craft essays? Those are worth the price of admission alone.
We can't see the "36 Writing Essays by Chuck Palahniuk" which is very sad but I guess that comes with not being a fancy "workshop member."
I try to focus on workshopping short stories because it just seems to be the right thing to do at this end of the writing career, and it drives home the fundamentals. It would be nice to have publications and people already sniffing around for me if I were querying a novel.
That's something I need to work on, myself. I'm good at plotting novels but short stories elude me.
I get really great critiques on AbsoluteWrite. They have an extra active YA community, which isn't something I can find here. So for that reason, I think it would be silly for me to pay. I've yet to come across anything in an essay that had never occured to me. And I'm not really so didactic or methodical. I just read and then I write.
But I like the board because there's a very specific type of writer here that you can't find on a lot of other sites. But also, since I don't pay, LR is more for entertainment than anything serious.
I've yet to come across anything in an essay that had never occured to me. And I'm not really so didactic or methodical. I just read and then I write.
I could never allow myself to think like that knowing that, if gajillion were an actual thing, that's how many other people with moderately interesting stories are punting their stuff to the same publishers and agents as I. Not that I think what you're doing is wrong for you or a reflection on your work.
I wish there was a trial period with the workshop. One week would do it. I joined a website much like this once, only to find that it was a mutual admiration type of thing, with everyone giving lovely sugar-coated critiques because by doing they earned points and badges and could submit more themselves. All for the lovely cost of $7 a month (and just $10.00 for 25 more points any time!).
It was well-seeded with great testimonials too, from mediocre authors who were ecstatic that someone liked their writing and had praised it. I came away after several months a bit poorer and my writing unchanged. I'm under no illusions, I count myself in the mediocre category - but without any real critique the site was useless. Reading a critique of my work by someone who misuses "their and there" doesn't really resonate with me. Of course there were many great authors in the mix as well.
PS: In NO way am I insinuating that this website or any of the authors on it are the same. Having been burned once am only wishing there was a trial period so that I could check it out myself.
There are great writers that give reviews regarding skills that others lack, and there are green writers that give impressions of how the story works to their readership. That's just the nature of workshops, I haven't read too many entirely useless reviews here though. A lot of reviewers like to give line by line reviews too, so there is a good depth to the quality and intensity of reviews depending on your writing agenda. I have seen very little sugar coating.
If you want you can PM me a short story and I will give a typical critique.
I can guarentee there is no sugar-coating here. Personally guarentee.
What bh said. No sugar-coating. If you're due for an ass-kicking, you'll get it...and you'll come out stronger because of it.
I have been hesitating to review, because honestly, I am shit at it. I was a part of an amazing writers' group in Maryland and their reviews were so amazing and helpful and I always felt like the idiot when I was giving my input.
I am hoping the workshop will help me improve both my writing and my reviewing skills. I can edit/proof essays fairly easily, but with fiction I just have the damndest time.
(take this as my plea to be patient with me when I review your work, haha).
On the other hand, I would like to shake the hand of the evil genius who decided we should pay him/her to give each other our opinions on one another's work. I find the idea mildly and amusingly insane. Feel free to pay Litreactor for my two cents worth. I am sure they won't mind.
Actually, I think it's a great idea. It feels "safer" because we aren't just posting our work on the forums that anyone can see, and it gives that feeling of "I am PAYING for this, so I am going to make it worth it". I'm not going to give half-assed reviews, because I don't want my work to get half-assed reviews, after all, I am paying for it.
I've seen other sites that have you review in exchange for submissions, but weren't paid and you can tell that people zombie through as many as possible just so they can put their stuff in, never realizing that everyone else has the same attitude. I think a certain amount of gravity comes with paying to be a part of the program. That may just be me, though.
Renee, my review priorities look like this (possible spelling errors due to wine):
Clarity
Consistency
Narrative voice
Structure
Characterization
Dialogue
Grammar and Syntax
If I only comment on the dialogue and grammar of your story, I will be expecting to see it in a publication soon.
Renee - Reviewing and critiquing is as hard a skill to master as writing is (maybe). That's why people are professional editors. The only way to learn is to read the craft essays, apply them to what you read, and practice being helpful.
Everybody's perspective is worthwhile. You might think other's are better at it, but you'll see something that no-one else will notice. And that one little note you think is shitty might be a huge contribution.
I definitely intend to jump in, if for no other reason, because I see many people in the forums who I would love to review my work. I just need to get over the "stage fright". I am normally a pretty confident person, but when I get around talented writers, I suddenly feel like the smallest person in the room. Possibly because I have invested so much of my life and identity into being "a writer".
Renee, I feel a lot like you do. When I get around people who obviously know how to write well I feel like a grade school child pretending to be a grown-up. I'm not insecure about my identity as a writer, I just can't imagine why anyone would want someone so inexperienced (me) critiquing their work.
I could never allow myself to think like that knowing that, if gajillion were an actual thing, that's how many other people with moderately interesting stories are punting their stuff to the same publishers and agents as I.
Dare I say that my genre is slightly less competitive in that there are definitely a "gajillion" submissions but most of them are shitty. If I wrote short stories or general adult fiction, I'd definitely feel differently.
Monique--exactly. I've had exactly one essay published and it fell in my lap, almost guaranteed to be included in the book. Other than that, I've written copy and been a "professional blogger". I've been writing since grade school, but somehow, not having those published pieces under my belt, I somehow feel like my input isn't "worth it" in comparison to writers who have been there and done that.
I once had a spinster old English teacher, that could kill love for any literary piece tell me she graded me lower because she "wasn't a fan of your style". I suppose if she can get away with that and feel confident in it, I should be okay with being a little more objective. Haha.
Can you non-workshoppers see any of the craft essays? Those are worth the price of admission alone.
Agreed. I've only read a handful of them so far, but have gotten at least something out of all them. Some of the suggestions I discard because they're not going to work for me, but I can find a way to integrate most of them into my writing and see the benefit for having done so.
My time is quite precious at the moment - I'm teaching 8 undergraduate classes at uni (including a shitload of marking), trying to write a literature review for my PhD dissertation, I'm at the gym three times a week, and I like to have some semblance of a social life too. Oh, and I'm trying to write a novel too. So, I paid the $45 for 6 months, and went by the rationale that I was paying $1.25 per essay - and anything I got out of the workshops, be it feedback on my own work or learning through providing feedback to others and seeing how they initiate changes from it, was a bonus.
But, having joined the workshops, it forces you to make the time - you can't help it. I made my first submission because I wanted some feedback (and also because I figured that people would take my reviews more seriously if I was willing to put myself in the firing line too). And I've spent much of my free time since working on the feedback I was given. Even if there isn't much in the way of faults that someone can pick in a person's work, that's feedback too - it shows that people are liking what you've got. Other snippets of free time have been spent reviewing for other people - I'll jump on and see if someone needs a review, or if an interesting story catches my eye. I'm trying to work (slowly but surely) up enough points for another submission, even though that's sometime off yet.
At the end of the day, reviewing is the same as submitting - you have to start somewhere, and when you finally take the plunge, your confidence is going to grow. Unless you're submitting a half-baked story that is riddled with errors, you're not going to get slaughtered - but if there's room for improvement, people will tell you. My experience is that everyone is honest - about what's good and what's not. Once you can start to see shortcomings in other people's work (and, let's face it, nothing's perfect), then you'll start to identify them in your own work too - and that's how you improve. If you want to develop your writing, I strongly encourage you to take the plunge and start submitting and reviewing - echoing what everyone else has said here, it's definitely worth it.
It's pretty simple: if you don't want to join the workshop, don't do it. If you want a structured environment in which to get feedback on your writing with all the necessary tools to make getting fresh feedback easy, join. There is no evil genius. When we founded this site, we had a vision, but we also knew that people who join free workshops often have very frustrating experiences. Paying a fee makes everything a little less clumsy. On our end, it means we have a duty to make this as comfortable and rewarding as possible. On the workshopper's end, it means all the people who would just post to get feedback and then disappear are eliminated.
I'm pleased with how everything is working. There is already a budding community and that's pretty neat considering how young the site is.
I think the essays are essential for providing a common jargon for critiques and discussion. When I say "on the body" nobody needs to try to guess what I'm talking about. Ditto with "thought" verbs (although I often say "ego" verbs), big voice and small voice, or horses (for themes).
The starting core of Litreactor is the old workshop from The Cult, as most of you probably know. The fact that you had to pony up some cash to participate there no doubt improved the quality. Those of us already subscribed at The Cult got to finish out the last year of our subscription here -- or at least I think that's how it works. A lot of the old members seemed pretty gung ho about the new site.
Personally, while optimistic, I'm taking a wait and see attitude. I'm probably game even though my income has, well, disappeared altogether. I do think the membership will be worth the price and I'm not yet broke, but it is about four times what it cost to participate at The Cult. There are some members at The Cult who were part of the backbone of the workshop. If we lose too many of them, the quality of the site will suffer, and that will affect my decision to stay or go.
I'm hoping some of them might be considered for a break on the price if Litreactor is too rich for their budgets. We need the heavy hitters here. There are a few folks from The Cult with little cash who would make up for that by heavy participation. Without them, it will be tough to build to the same level of quality in the writing and critiques.
This could be done on the QT, but I hope this possibility is under consideration.
For me, the magic of any writing program is self-challenge. When I get myself involved in a process such as this one, it causes my competitive juices to flow and I write. I have reviewed a number of pieces, all of which had potential but are not ready for prime time and the thinking that goes into reviews gives me a better eye for editing and revising my own work. I posted one short piece to see if the group was willing to critique it honestly and they did. Next, I plan to submit the introduction to a novel I have been working on just to see how I have done independent of any feedback over the past year. It is my real start point.
I decided to take what I know which is the field of therapy and base the work on my reality, even going so far as to fictionalize people I knew and make them into characters by saving their personas but giving them roles that had nothing to do with their lives. In the novel, I use my understanding of the children's insitutional system--early in my career, I was the director of special services at a children's home in Syracuse and I am trying to use the reality to serve as the matrix for a mystery that is totally fiction. Tomorrow, I plan to post the prelude.
I just started today. And tried my hand at reviewing as well. I'm not great at it, but my thought is - I'm a reader. I know what I like to read and why I like to read it. This is where my main thoughts come from. I've studied literature for years (YEARS), but I tend to think of that as studying reading, and studying writing is different. Make sense? Maybe not.
Anyway. I thought I'd get my feet wet. The best way to make your work better is to have a large group of people poke it with sharp sticks. My philosophy anyway!
I've actually considered joining this workshop, whereas I wasn't a member of the previous. For many reasons. To start taking shit semi-seriously, to build a new name for myself, and to invite critique from people who I know have no problem being well... critical. Maybe even harshly so.
While I won't argue over the price, I've wondered if the workshop is worth my time, only because this is a new workshop. Given that it IS the offspring of the previous workshop, it still hasn't had time enough to establish itself so that I'd feel comfortable forking over money and dedication just yet.
I'm unsure how many people here are actually active members of the workshop itself, and unsure how 'active' these members are. Speed and volume of activity concerns me a great deal with internet communities. Can I expect a few reviews within a short amount of time, or one half-handed quip from a stranger six months after submitting a piece? I'm unsure of the depth of reviews and critiques, and unsure of the merit I can grant those giving reviews and critiques (being strangers.)
While I'm not arguing against the quality of the essays in the slightest, these are questions I have about the workshop that prevent me from crossing the border into Paid Member just yet.
Right now, it really depends how long your peice is. If it's under 2,000 words, you can expect 5-10 critiques in 2 days (I'd guess). If it's less words, then you get that many in one day. If it's 2,500-4,000 you get 5 critiques. If it's over 4k, then you seem to get 2-4. Again, that takes 2 days on average.
I'm just guessing at those numbers from watching the numbers on the workshop. It really pays to submit short parts of novels (under 3k words) and shorter short stories (again, under 3k).
The average usefulness of the critiques is better than or equal to most college writing classes beneath a Masters degree level. Sometimes the critiques are better than those in Masters classes.
And one month will prove to you whether it's worth it or not. For the price of going to see a movie, you get a month of access to the essays and to a writing group that will give you honest, intelligent feedback.
@Mason: I felt like a little bit of a sucker when I first paid for it, but it does force you to take it more seriously, the fact that you paid to get in on it, as well as the points system works really well for the workshop.
But if you ask me, paying 400 bucks for a class, that's a little loopy. I don't care if Derrida were teaching it, that's not an option for me atm.
@Danielle: It's a pretty active part of the site. I certainly can't afford to have wasted the money for a 6 month membership, and I get the feeling that few paid members are interested in wasting their money either. So, because of the points system, they kind of have to write a review for stuff you post, and they will give you your moneys worth so you can give them their money's worth.
@Danielle: I can tell you that there are more than a few of us that are, probably over-active, at the workshop. You'll see the same people and you'll find too, after some time, you'll get a core group of reviewers that will always review your work. I've got four or five people I know will review my work when I submit. And, of course, I return the favor. The quality of critiques here is super. I've taken something, sometimes somethings, from every person who's reviewed my work. Most give line by lines, as I usually tend to do, and these are invaluable. Bryanhowie is a constant at the workshop. Nkwilczy has been showing up with more frequency. There are a whole plethora of others who, on almost a daily basis, give reviews and submit. This is not to say that we're the only ones reviewing, there certainly are others who review, but time or life get in the way of constantly workshopping.
I'm unsure of the depth of reviews and critiques, and unsure of the merit I can grant those giving reviews and critiques (being strangers.)
- The answer to this is to try it out. I think strangers make for the best reviewers because they're unbiased to your work. Every critique I've ever gotten, here and at Cult, has been honest, unbiased, extremely helpful, encouraging, insightful and invaluable. 99% of the workshoppers give quality reviews, that I can promise you.
For me, it's not about paying or not. Sure, there's a psychological element to it: If I pay, then I'm more apt to participate. But, it's about the love of writing. I critique, give LBLs and spend a lot of time here because I love writing. If you love writing, do yourself a favor and join - try just a month to see if it fits your needs - and I guarantee you'll be hooked.
~Rian
But if you ask me, paying 400 bucks for a class, that's a little loopy. I don't care if Derrida were teaching it, that's not an option for me atm.
Classes like these given at seminars I've seen run around $2,000 and those are done in 4 days usually, sometimes 2.
I'm sure it's useful, it is probably more useful than any University English class that would also cost more. I'm not trying to hate on people who have 400 bucks to throw around. I am certainly not talking smack about the reactor, the reactor is great, and I am sure that it is as good a deal as the membership fee. And it isn't that I don't respect the people who run them either, like I said, I wouldn't be able to afford it if Derrida were teaching it (and trust me, understanding margins of philosophy alone would be worth 400).
But, for the sake of Mason, who is talking about the $6 a month being too much (and, personally, I don't ever think of it like that since I already paid for the next 6 months), I just wanted to illustrate that the membership fee isn't much of an investment at all here.
And, personally, Southern Nights and Legal Technicality have been driving me crazy for months, I haven't been able to get anyone to pick them up. My investment has already paid off with the perspectives I've gotten here. Catalits are serious about their shit, they have contributed a huge amount already to helping me clean up those stories and I've put them up on several other sites, none of which were nearly as helpful, I've rarely made as prudent an investment.
I firmly believe the price for the workshop to be worth it.
Right now the workshop is more active than The Cult's was (though I missed the whole anthology wave over there so that might not be wholly true) and there are plenty of new members getting their feet wet.
I'm a bit slow at submitting but both my stories have received wonderful feedback. Also the reviewing process never stops being useful to a writer, going at stories with your critical-thinking head on helps you get into the right frame of mind when you are looking at your own work.
It's a good environment for anyone who is serious about getting better at the game. People on here will push you and challenge you to improve. That is gold.
I was only on the Cult workshop for a few weeks, but it seems there are as much submissions here in 1 weekday than there were an entire work week over there. So that's cool
I caught myself the other day drawing an outline sketch of a couple scenes I had written and the next steps of the story, and putting things like "develop this character more here" and "make the character sympathetic here" at certain places, knowing what would better hook a reader. So yeah, freshening up your analytical mind is a great aid in actually writing.
Sometimes I can hear their voices. Characters seem to swirl in my mind and one will become prevalent. I find that no matter what I am writing, I start with a character and the plot develops around the character in the same way that life evolves based upon which direction we choose. Even if I choose to put obstacles in the character's path, the path is one that the character chose so I have to make my obstacles fit its life.
Characters are often triggered by memories of people who passed through my life, but in re-imagining them, they become someone far different from who they were in reality. My first semi-sexual experience was with a girl with haunted eyes. It turned out she had been abused from early on and in those days, nobody talked about it. We were neighbors and best friends and we used to sit out on the porch roof late at night -- our houses were connected and we climbed out our respective bedroom windows to the secluded place that was our very own.
All I recall all these years later is her voice and her eyes, mirroring her pain and terror. So, I took those haunted eyes and a whisper of a voice and gave them to a totally different character in a setting that I had passed through when I was driving across the country, which I have done more than a dozen times. I kept only the hurt but changed the causation, the persona and found that I had a story about love and sacrifice. I used all the caring I had felt as a child who was in far over his head when the reality occurred. I invested in her the depth of loneliness with a new history. The story moved from Philadelphia to the Texas Panhandle.
She became a torrent of freckles with knowing eyes and a cascade of auburn hair. She could never connect with anyone because she always felt unworthy. She was as tough as rawhide and as fresh as a cactus flower that blooms only for a few days a year. I used this latter example as a vague reference to Shangri-La or Brigadoon where but once in a hundred years did the passage open to enter because she and the male protag made a brief connection that altered both their lives.
I like an element of magic in my characters and believe that under the best of circumstances, every person can have magic moments though some are destined to have them only when they open a book. Maybe that is why I write about and for people. My favorite characters are lovable losers and losable lovers because there are so many of them in the world and there is one hiding in each of us that we pray remains caged.
Pardon my rambling. It is Saturday night. I just had a great dinner at a diner---never try to separate me from comfort food. I will kill anyone who dares. Keep your white tablecloths and sterling silver implements. Candles are for people who love to travel the Hershey Highway. The wax makes them self-lubricating. Give me simple china, stainless steel utensils and a slab of meatloaf to die for...as a matter of fact, too much of it and you will die for it, but oh what a way to go.
