Cath Murphy's picture
Cath Murphy from UK is reading Find out on the Unpr!ntable podcast March 13, 2013 - 5:44am

We talked about this on Unpr!ntable a few weeks ago (when Josh Mohr joined us) but the controversy rumbles on. A German of Eritrean heritage, Mesghena wants to remove the word neger from a kids book.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21702989

Critics say this is censorship. Mesghena and his supporters say the word is offensive.

I'm on the side of taking it out, because I think we get our panties in a wad over censorship when a little judicious alteration stops a whole lot of polarisation/outrage/boodshed (see my article for a more detailed discussion).

But I could be wrong...

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry March 13, 2013 - 5:51am

That's a tough one, Cath.  That word is harmful.  Carries a lot of historical baggage with it.  On the other hand, as writers I don't think we should fear words, even words as powerful as that one.  I just think we ought to deal with it responsibly*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*I have no idea how to deal with that word responsibly, so please don't ask for my prospectus on that.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 13, 2013 - 6:09am

Cath, I've actually had conversations with actual black people about this issue. 

When I was writing from behind some metal bars, I was one of three white people in a cell block of 60. When the subject came up, only the two other white guys said the word should be censored from literature. The rest of the guys, blacks and Latinos, and myself, all agreed that what a man would say if allowed to say anything (or write anything) should be made to stand no matter what. If he says something hurtful to the masses, so be it, he will endure the consequences. But, to delete the word, or any word, is the same as removing David's penis from the statue Michaelangelo made.

Surprised me when a guy who had robbed a dozen stores and shot two clerks said that bit about the statue, but wisdom comes in many different packages.

Linda's picture
Linda from Sweden is reading Fearful Symmetries March 13, 2013 - 12:38pm

We had a very heated debate in Sweden last year regarding Tintin in the Congo, and – if I remember correctly – the initial issue was whether public libraries should continue to hold copies, and whether existing copies should be disposed of.

In general, I agree with the guy in your cell block, we can't censor history in order to make it reflect whatever moral values we hold to now. It's tricky with children though.    

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 13, 2013 - 12:48pm

Hmm...

Having worked in education, I can see how it can get tricky with that demographic.

Part of me says they should just remove any book they'd be willing to alter because if you're going to sacrifice an author's creative vision to appease a few complainers you might as well just not even offer the vsiion entirely.

Another part says they should teach their kids about reality and not shield them from what will eventually smack them in the face when they are let loose in the world uneducated about history and even the present. So, not only should they keep the book as is, they should make it illegal to ban any book.

Then there's the third part that thinks they should keep the book as is, make the library keep it in stock, but only have it available through teachers who check it out and integrate it into a lesson plan.

Linda, you've definitely pointed out a grey area there, but the principle itself is still black and white - no pun intended.

Covewriter's picture
Covewriter from Nashville, Tennessee is reading & Sons March 13, 2013 - 2:43pm

How can you show kids the hatefulness of using that word of they don't see it used in literature. Kids are smart. They can see it as an ugly word. They see who uses it, where it comes from and make  decisions about it. Yes, use it responsibly. if its not needed, don't use it for shock value. Stepping off soap box. 

drea's picture
drea from Rural Alberta, Canada is reading between the lines March 14, 2013 - 8:42am

Anti-censorship. Period. 

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 14, 2013 - 12:27pm

I'm completely with Max, obviously. 

Max, where were you two days ago when I was being told to sit down and shut up in another thread???

 

Dogmeat42's picture
Dogmeat42 from Long Island, NY is reading House of Leaves March 14, 2013 - 1:14pm

I'm against censorship.

 

To be a little more topic-specific, the reason that the "N" word is so controversial is because of all the injustices and hate that were inflicted against black people at the time this word was most widely used.  Censoring it out now seems like an extra slap in the face to all those people that it was/still is used to repress.  We should acknowledge and learn from the mistakes of the past, instead of trying to hide and "poo-poo" them away by deleting them.

I should mention that I am about as white as they come, so I am speaking solely from opinion.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 14, 2013 - 1:34pm

Is there any other kind of buttsex, other than surprise buttsex?

Utah, I am gonna find you, you reverse-censoring motherfucker...

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry March 14, 2013 - 1:42pm

Cath, my apologies.  This thread is a serious discussion and it's gotten a little wonky. 

I will accept the blame upon my mighty mighty shoulders.

sean of the dead's picture
sean of the dead from Madisonville, KY is reading Peckerwood, by Jed Ayres March 14, 2013 - 1:53pm

Even though I'm also white as they come, I'd censor the shit out of the smoke detector beeping in that video...

sean of the dead's picture
sean of the dead from Madisonville, KY is reading Peckerwood, by Jed Ayres March 14, 2013 - 2:38pm

EDIT: decided rather than continue an argument on a message board to instead try and write my way out of a paper bag...i'll report back if I find my way out.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated March 14, 2013 - 3:00pm

Making a big deal out of it is not helping anyone, even a little bit.

Jonathan Riley's picture
Jonathan Riley from Memphis, Tennessee is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland March 14, 2013 - 2:47pm

Edit.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated March 14, 2013 - 3:17pm

Yeah my bad there.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 14, 2013 - 4:51pm

You had me searching my smoke detectors throughout that whole fucking clip. That's what I get for having the laptop hooked up to the stereo.

And Dwayne, who's making a big deal, and what are they making a big deal out of?

We're all friends here. Homicidally enraged, reverse-censored, NOT INTO BUTT SEX, friends.

And, Utah, am I going to have to put a disclaimer on every single post I make from here on out that says something like...

"Anything below this line was added after the fact by other parties besides the person posting, and bears no reflection upon the person posting in any way."

Do I gotta do that???

Or should I just track you down, rip out your guts and make a nice stew with potatoes, carrots, some celery, maybe a bit of cilantro for aroma?

Frank Chapel's picture
Frank Chapel from California is reading Thomas Ligotti's works March 14, 2013 - 7:10pm

Cath,

essentially what you're saying is that if any word, phrase, or subject is controversial to the point of "polarization/outrage/bloodshed," then it's okay to remove it.

Here's an interesting fact: polarization, outrage, and bloodshed were all part of the American Civil War, and the American civil rights movement as well. 

I think we learn more about ourselves and the issue when we discuss it, not when we hide it, misinterpret it, or use our children to excuse censorship. 

 

 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated March 14, 2013 - 8:35pm

The n word. I think acting like it is worth talking about just makes racism that much stronger.

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks March 14, 2013 - 10:43pm

Disclaimer: On sleep-aids. May not make sense.

I think Cath's argument was that removing the word would remove the controversy and allow an otherwise so-called "questionable" book (questionable to those protesting it) to be read. I don't think that's a terrible proposition in itself.

That makes perfect sense to me because it's obvious that the word is not integral to the story. When Looking for Alaska was protested, simply removing the "offending" scenes would have entirely damaged the story, created an entirely different story, and violated the entire creative process of John Green.

Removing "neger" from the book wouldn't affect the creative vision, the meaning, or even the content in a significant way.

And the slippery slope is a logical fallacy for two reasons: it ignores the heart of the issue and assumes a relationship between things that don't have a relationship. These are my two favorite explanations of why the slippery slope argument is almost always false at its core: here and here. I don't see any reason why removing this word would lead to some sort of black box, constant violation of creative right. If I hear one, I'll change my mind.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated March 14, 2013 - 11:10pm

Court, If there was a scratch my head awkwardly emoticon I'd used. No one brought up a slippery slope except you. We all pretty much stuck with "Censorship bad!" or "N word worse!"

I'm of the mind set that acting like the n word is such a big deal is big horrible deal just makes it worse. If we acted like it was a just another crude word you wouldn't say to a four year old there wouldn't be such a reason to say it. It is just handing idiots and bigots a quick way to get attention.

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks March 15, 2013 - 12:11am

I took Max's final comment to be a slippery slope argument, but hey -- sleep aids are a wonderful thing, and they make me high as fuck if I delay sleep too long on them.

I agree with your point wholeheartedly, but I think there's also an emphasis placed on the word when we vehemently fight to get it included. It's like saying "Don't think of a pink elephant" -- you're only making it more important by mentioning it, either in a way that says "censor, motherfucker!" or a way that says "don't censor, motherfucker!"

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated March 15, 2013 - 12:20am

I'm saying we'd be better off if we just acted like it wasn't that big a deal.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 15, 2013 - 4:49am

I guess, at least in my perspecitve of the world, either everything is a big deal and worth discussing, fighting, even dying for if it matters to you - or everything is not a big deal, nothing is worth discussing, fighting, even dying for so you might as well end it all now since nothing is worth the effort.

I'm an all or nothing kind of guy, in case you hadn't noticed already.

And when I was talking about THE word, I was also holding that stance for every word, thought, political opinion, or perspective. Either everything is free to say, write, record, and do interpretive dance about, or nothing is free. I vehemently disagree with all sorts of things, but I never disagree with a person's right to speak, write, or otherwise express their voice. If it is blatantly wrong, intelligent people will discern its fallacy. 

By having things one cannot say and another musn't read, you are cooking the nutrients out of the creative diet of mankind. Without entirely free discourse, the potential of society cannot be grown into, because its diet isn't conducive to growth. In another way, it's like having a Marines Basic Training course, with no obstacles. Imagine how much less tough and well-trained the Corps would be if their training course were denuded of all things that required overcoming challenges.

And Dwayne, my bad earlier, I didn't immediately get that you were referring to the topic at hand.

Brandon's picture
Brandon from KCMO is reading Made to Break March 15, 2013 - 7:59am

One thing this year: you can use the N-word a gratuitous amount of times and still win an academy award for writing.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 15, 2013 - 8:12am

Good point.

Made me wonder if someone made a Django-esque movie, but had it be a freed Jew during WWII, and the word 'kike' was tossed around, how would Hollywood, and the entertainment industry react?

I'd love to see that movie made.

Strange Photon's picture
Strange Photon from Fort Wayne, IN is reading Laurie Anderson lyrics March 15, 2013 - 8:16am

Good point.

Made me wonder if someone made a Django-esque movie, but had it be a freed Jew during WWII, and the word 'kike' was tossed around, how would Hollywood, and the entertainment industry react?

I'd love to see that movie made.

Courtney's picture
Courtney from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooks March 15, 2013 - 11:11pm

Personally, I don't think Hollywood would react any different way. I think we've come to a point in media where the people who have understood all along that it's just a word -- and one that belongs in any story claiming to be realistic -- are becoming more mainstream, and that's good.

I couldn't give a fuck less, though. I know it was used -- and is used -- and couldn't give a fuck less if we say it or not, or whether we have the right to say it or not.

Rights aren't all or nothing -- we have the right to worship whatever we want, but not the right to murder whoever we want in the name of that God. You can limit certain freedoms for the greater good and not damage the climate at all.

That said -- don't censor. But don't cry every time a word is taken out for simplicity's sake.

Michael.Eric.Snyder's picture
Michael.Eric.Snyder March 15, 2013 - 11:28pm

I'm all for keeping the word in the book. The final paragraph of the BBC story is my reason why. 

But Timnit should have the last voice. If you ask her now what the word means, she says: "It's an insult to brown-skinned people. I'm not a neger."

dufrescm's picture
dufrescm from Wisconsin is reading Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep March 18, 2013 - 10:26am

If history has taught us anything, it's that banning or censoring something will only make people want it that much more. Prohibition anyone?  I'll never understand why people are so quick to delete/change our history or try to shield kids from it, when they can use controversial texts to start kids thinking about what racism really means in our current social context. Rather than change the word/ban the book, they should talk about it. Tell kids about the context in which it was written, about how the word has evolved and what it means today. It's a teaching moment, not a hiding moment.

And FWIW, I've used "nigger" in my writing, when it was appropriate for the scene. It was very effective and even made one of my friends cry. I'd be appalled if someone tried to change my story to take that out. Who are they to tell me what my art can and cannot say?

 

Thank you for the soapbox.