TheMassAnonymous's picture
TheMassAnonymous from Detroit is reading The Nimrod Flipout August 24, 2012 - 12:19pm

Are there any significant advantages to getting a masters in creative writing?

I come from a science background and there's a statement they drill into your head. Publish or Perish. And publishing in research depends a lot upon the institution you've studied at, as well as, the institution you research at. Is it like that in the literary world? 

If there's anyone here that has an MFA that could shed some light on the pros and cons of studying at a university for writing, that'd be helpful. Not just the publishing part of things, but the learning aspects as well. 

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. August 24, 2012 - 12:31pm

From what I've heard, the main advantage comes from meeting other writers.  There are classes that will expose you to different techniques and skills, but you don't need an MFA to learn those (although you will be forced to learn them in an MFA, where you might skip them if you weren't graded on doing it and doing it well.)  An MFA also gives you the credentials to teach and edit.  

But interacting with people as interested in the craft of writing seems to be the biggest bonus (there's an article at Lit Reactor that talks about the pros and cons called "Seriously Though, Do I Really Need an MFA?" and the responses to that article also have input from people with an MFA).  

Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs August 24, 2012 - 12:42pm

Not really as far as the program that I attended. I imagine other programs may be more beneficial. It qualifies you to teach writing, although I think actually writing books that get published is a more significant qualification. You can learn a lot from getting an MFA, but you can learn the same elsewhere. It may be worth doing if you don't have to pay for it.

Jose F. Diaz's picture
Jose F. Diaz from Boston is reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel August 24, 2012 - 2:19pm

If you can afford it then get it, if not, then put it on the back burner. I will go for mine as soon as I am done with my BA. I feel that it would be better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Simple, but very true.

OtisTheBulldog's picture
OtisTheBulldog from Somerville, MA is reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz August 24, 2012 - 3:34pm

I'm 35, I was a criminal justice major in college. I behaved my way out of certain jobs. I was fortunate enough, though, to land a really good job in my field in the corporate arena. Turns out, people will pay you well to protect their money. I've had a really good time and I'm grateful for it.

In 30 days, I'm 50/50 of being laid off. I've had meetings with my boss and it's coming down to an excel sheet and number crunching in Hartford. That's the reality. I'll be a statistic that either fits into a forumula or doesn't. And I really don't care. 

While I make a good living, live alone in an expensive area, have a company car and work from home, I've mentally moved on. My attorney said it best, when I die, the last thing I want on my grave stone is "Otis was a great fraud investigator".

With conflict comes reflection. The complaceny that has set in gets challenged. I realized I want to get my MFA. I want to make a run at this writing thing. I harbor no illusions. I understand the challenges. I know there are no guarantees. I know it's long odds. But reading through that thread just affirmed my new path in life. And that's where I'm going.

My gravestone will read something else.

Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs August 24, 2012 - 11:17pm

It's better to have money than waste it on something you don't need. You don't need a degree to write books.

TheMassAnonymous's picture
TheMassAnonymous from Detroit is reading The Nimrod Flipout August 25, 2012 - 2:41pm

deep

 

.'s picture
. August 25, 2012 - 4:07pm

I'll probably get my MFA just to have a reason to dick around for a few more years and be a smug bastard when I tell people I'm in grad school. But after I earn the degree, I'll regret the student loans and work at Starbucks trying to land an agent. 

.'s picture
. August 25, 2012 - 4:48pm

Evil double post.

Michael J. Riser's picture
Michael J. Riser from CA, TX, Japan, back to CA is reading The Tyrant - Michael Cisco, The Devil Takes You Home - Gabino Iglesias August 25, 2012 - 4:10pm

If I could get one without going into debt, I think I'd consider it. Mostly just for the potential of being able to teach. As far as legit jobs go, that's probably one of the few I wouldn't completely hate.

Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs August 25, 2012 - 4:25pm

You'll probably meet more agents if you work at Panera Bread.

deep

Is that in reference to what I wrote above? C'mon, man. Joseph said, "I feel that it would be better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it." Unless you get funding, an MFA will cost around 40 to 50 thousand dollars. It IS NOT worth paying that much for something you don't need. So if you do go for an MFA, make sure it's for the right reasons. I think a better use of that money would be to take a couple years off from working and spend the time by writing a few books. I got a lot more writing done when I was working overnights at a gas station compared to when I was an MFA student.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters August 25, 2012 - 4:24pm

You can be a smug bastard without it. 

.'s picture
. August 25, 2012 - 4:50pm

The elitist smug bastard. 

But I didn't think about Bradley's idea. Taking a few years off to write books is a good idea. 

Though teaching doesn't sound too awful either.

Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs August 25, 2012 - 5:39pm

Although it's not like you can take out student loans so you won't have to work. Perhaps consider doing an MFA program that will give you a lot more time to write. One that won't have classes and whatnot. Like a low-residency program that is mentor-based rather than has internet classes. I think Goddard's program is like that. You just need to attend actual classes for like a week and a half each semester. Assuming I'm understanding it correctly, the one negative aspect compared to a conventional program is there won't be any peer reviewing except for during that week and a half when you're on campus. But I would have preferred working closely with mentors myself rather than getting feedback from other students.

Although if you decide against grad school and end up living off credit cards for two years and not working, you will end up with a lot less debt if you live thrifty.

I just think the whole "it will give me more time to write" reason that a lot of students use to justify getting an MFA is bullshit unless they don't have to pay for the time.

BTW, you're probably not going to find a good teaching job unless you also go for a PhD. You can get a job teaching writing at a community college with an MFA unless you live in a place like where I live where all the PhD people gobble up the community college jobs. And you may be able to teach at the college where you received your MFA if they like you. I would suggest instead getting an MA in English or Rhetoric and Composition if you want to teach.

Jay.SJ's picture
Jay.SJ from London is reading Warmed and Bound August 25, 2012 - 5:13pm

I got onto a course where I'm studying American Literature with Creative Writing. I get a year abroad in the states, don't feel bad about paying high tuition fees for it (9000 pounds a year)

Michael J. Riser's picture
Michael J. Riser from CA, TX, Japan, back to CA is reading The Tyrant - Michael Cisco, The Devil Takes You Home - Gabino Iglesias August 25, 2012 - 6:13pm

That's a perspective I've not heard, Bradley. Can I ask you to elaborate a little on your final statement?

Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs August 25, 2012 - 6:55pm

Unless you get a PhD, it's extremely unlikely that you'll get a job teaching creative writing beyond the community college level. Perhaps the chances that this will happen will greatly increase if you attend a top program. I didn't, so I'm not entirely sure. If you're going for an MFA, a desire to teach should be secondary to a desire to improve your writing. But overall, I really don't think there's a good reason to get an MFA if you have to pay for it. Perhaps it would be worth paying for a top program, but that's unnecessary since they're all fully funded except maybe Columbia in NYC. 

There are very few PhD programs in Creative Writing, but there are quite a few English progams with Creative Writing concentrations. Although I have been told if I want to teach, getting a PhD in Rhetoric would be a much better idea than getting a PhD in Creative Writing. I think because I would have more job opportunities since I could teach both composition and creative writing classes since jobs teaching creative writing aren't plentiful. 

When I look around for teaching jobs, I just don't see job openings for Creative Writing professors. It's always to teach composition classes. And the requirement is usually having an MA in English or Composition and there is no mention of an MFA in Creative Writing.

I believe it was possible in the past to get hired by a four year university to teach creative writing with just an MFA, but now all those positions are going to people who have PhDs (or many years of experience teaching creative writing at colleges). Perhaps it's still possible for someone with an MFA to find a job like this, but it would probably need to be located in a place where people would not want to live.

TheMassAnonymous's picture
TheMassAnonymous from Detroit is reading The Nimrod Flipout September 14, 2012 - 7:28am

Is that in reference to what I wrote above?

lol. When I said "deep" I was referring to OtisTheBulldog's response. Not yours.. But thanks for all the info and your opinion. I'm still on the fence though.. I just finished my bachelors in biology and the job market, or lack there of, just gave me a reality check. So I'm trying to make a decision on where to go from here. It will inevitably be graduate school but I'm on the fence of what I should pursue. Whether to do the somewhat logical thing and continue towards the sciences or to take a chance and pursue a passion.. If I choose the latter, I'll definitely take your advice and go for the English or Rhetoric and Composition rather than the Creative Writing.. Thanks for the advice Brad.

Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs September 14, 2012 - 12:52pm

You're welcome.

EricMBacon's picture
EricMBacon from Vermont is reading The Autobiography of a Corpse September 15, 2012 - 9:30am

I want to go for mine right away. I have no problem surviving while being poor. I am lucky to live in Vermont where there are many low-residency programs. Goddard seems to be the best. You attend 16-20 days a year to take part in workshops, lectures, and projects, but the heart of your education is to meet your own personal goals (which for many would be to have a publishable book at the end and the skills to write professionally). I'm currently still working on a BA, and I am so impatient having to take classes that have nothing to do with my concentrations (creative writing, fiction).

I just wish there was more time in the day. I feel like I am wasting so much opportunity to just write. I have 40-50 hours of work a week and full time classes. Not to mention all of the wasted time in my personal life taking care of other people who refuse to take care of themselves. I just have to keep my head down and focus. Finding a friend to write with would be a good thing too.

Anyway, I absolutley want to get my MA, but not to teach, just because there is always more to learn. Like I said, I have no plans of being anything other than working-poor the rest of my life. As long as I am writing, I can survive.

Bruno Hat's picture
Bruno Hat from Glasgow, Scotland is reading writing and arithmetic September 15, 2012 - 10:10am

I come from a science background too in terms of education. I know a few people who came from the creative writing masters at the University of Glasgow. To me, they all write the same way. That kind of uniformity worries me. It's like a factory production line.

Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs September 15, 2012 - 1:39pm

Goddard seems to be the best. You attend 16-20 days a year to take part in workshops, lectures, and projects.

Pretty sure it's 15 days per semester, so that's 30 days a year.

 I know a few people who came from the creative writing masters at the University of Glasgow. To me, they all write the same way. 

Yeah, that can be a problem. Back when I frequently read lit journals, I would describe most of the stories as an "MFA story." I think a lot of it depends on which program you're in. Mine didn't emphasize writing the same way. Others may.

underpurplemoon's picture
underpurplemoon from PDX September 19, 2012 - 3:24am

I was in a low residency MFA program and loved it. I had to quit because of work. Tried applying to an online MFA program to no avail. Was going to re-apply, but I didn't take it serious the first time. And now I realized that I am very attached to the MFA program I attended because nothing beats the real life physical connection and traditional networking. I don't think I have the heart to apply to another program.

Online MFA? Does it work? There's another online MFA program that I want to apply to...via Full Sail University. I mean, I pretty much have an online MBA, and there isn't much prestige. But I look at the world today, one of my BFFs has struggled to get a decent job with his traditional MBA at a really nice school and here I am overly employed. In a way, I guess he strugged because he didn't really have the connections to utilize fully his MBA.

Why did I pursue another masters when I already have one? For direction. I've only known going to school. There's other alternatives to writing, Steve, a contact at my MFA program once told me. I feel guilty that I haven't contacted them since. I've been really focused on getting work to float. Keeping business alive in this economy is crazy.

I'm more optimistic now because I have given myself hope. What am I pursuing? Whatever I please, but within reason, of course.

End of rant.

acm323's picture
acm323 from California March 14, 2014 - 8:50am

Nope.  If you don't "have it," you don't have it.

Rob's picture
Class Director
Rob from New York City is reading at a fast enough pace it would be cumbersome to update this March 14, 2014 - 10:17am

I've been thinking about this a lot lately: I think MFA programs are really good at teaching you to write for other writers, not for readers. 

Gordon Highland's picture
Gordon Highland from Kansas City is reading Secondhand Souls by Christopher Moore March 14, 2014 - 10:36am

A few weeks ago, I heard someone refer to it as a Master of Fuck-All, and now I cannot get that outta my head.

Angel Colón's picture
Angel Colón from The Bronx now living in New Jersey is reading A Big Ol' Pile of Books March 14, 2014 - 10:53am

I'd say it's a "nice to have" notch on a writer's belt. Doesn't necessarily mean a damn thing, though.

Tim Johnson's picture
Tim Johnson from Rockville, MD is reading Notes From a Necrophobe by T.C. Armstrong March 14, 2014 - 12:40pm

I have a bachelor's in creative writing, and while I learned a lot (and know it's not an MFA), the trauma of being pressured into defining "good writing" and to produce "good writing" took me years to get over.

I think, though, that once I got over it, I was a better writer. For those years that I was down, though, I was completely unproductive and miserable.

I'm only posting this to say that I've thought about getting an MFA a lot, and I don't think I would survive it.

Jeremy Robert Johnson's picture
Jeremy Robert J... from Portland, OR is reading an unreasonable number of books. March 18, 2014 - 10:48am

I have two friends who did the Iowa MFA thing. They went in naturally talented, read and wrote a great deal, and made outstanding connections. One said he had to learn how to write again after leaving, because there's a specific kind of writing which satisfied the teachers, and then there's the kind of writing which actually made him happy. He said the Carver mimicry thing is very real.

Both said the value was much more about the connections and the cred of Iowa more than the classes themselves. Both had multi-book deals with major presses and film adaptations of their work within years of leaving.