jl85's picture
jl85 from originally East Tennessee now Southern California is reading everything I can December 29, 2011 - 12:58am

Just wondering what the general consensus is about adverbs? Do you guys use words like normally, simply, occasionally, etc. in your writing, or do you try to stay away from them? The reason I ask is I am working on a short story and these are two of my sentences:

Staring day in and day out at the yellow, high-noon sun turned pink and I couldn’t force myself to go blind. Not because of the sun, I simply couldn’t make myself stare that long.

(It reads weird, I know, just started on my first revision, so..) Thoughts, ideas, advice? All is welcome!

 

Dean Blake's picture
Dean Blake from Australia is reading generationend.com December 29, 2011 - 6:08am

I don't have anything against adverbs at all and use them quite frequently myself!

Just some pointers on those sentences:

- first sentence implies that the protagonist doesn't want to go blind from the sun, but second sentence suggests otherwise.

- staring day in and day out suggests that the protagonist is staring at the sun for days on end (even after the day has "gone"). Is he/she, or is it only for a few minutes?

Sounds interesting!

 

NotMarilyn's picture
NotMarilyn from Twin Cities, MN is reading Mistress of Rome by Kate Quinn December 29, 2011 - 6:20am

After the first draft, my adverbs are sent to live on the adverb farm in Bermuda. Adverbs are crutches for weak verbs, in my opinion.

Words like "simply," "just," and "really" live on the farm as well.

postpomo's picture
postpomo from Canada is reading words words words December 29, 2011 - 7:08am

verily.

postpomo's picture
postpomo from Canada is reading words words words December 29, 2011 - 7:09am

use adverbs sparingly. Even better, use them unusually. "Boys, I'm so lusciously sorry." (from South Park)

.'s picture
. December 29, 2011 - 10:38am

I try to stay away from them but that is just popular belief. Of course I wouldn't overdue it though.

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. December 29, 2011 - 10:44am

Adverbs?  Shit, I don't even like adjectives.  Nouns piss me off, too.  And here's a fuck you to verbs.  Parts of speech are all just a bunch of assholes.  God, I hate punctuation.

misskokamon's picture
misskokamon from San Francisco is reading The Moonlit Mind December 29, 2011 - 2:27pm

I like adverbs.

We're often told not to use adverbs because they're lazy. They don't do a great job of showing. Same thing with adjectives, I guess. But to me, no tool in writing is a bad tool. Everything has a use when we're putting our stories on paper.

You can think of adverbs and adjectives as salt. Salt balances the flavors of sweet baked goods, and it brings out the flavor of other foods. I feel that 'telling' words are the same way--if used correctly, they can enhance the flavor of our story. But if you use too much, you can ruin the dish you're serving your reader. 

razorsharp's picture
razorsharp from Ohio is reading Atlas Shrugged December 29, 2011 - 3:04pm

I like Miss Kokamon's salt analogy.

When you read advice that says to stay away from adverbs it's basically saying don't use them as a crutch. It's all about the appropriate time and place.

For instance, it's usually better to describe how a character physically acts than to say that they do something 'gingerly.' When it comes to describing physical actions, 'gingerly' can be a full sentence. Hell, if you're detailed enough, it can be a whole paragraph. 'Softly,' on the other hand, will probably be more appropriate to use than to say, "not very loud" or something like that.

However, say this 'gingerly' action is something you've already described using physical detail, perhaps it's a continuous trait of the character. Then in later instances you may want to go ahead and refer to it using the adverb, because the reader knows precisely what you mean.

If you modify every verb with an adverb, you're going too far. If you purge every adverb from your writing on principle alone, you're going too far.

I would rework those sentences of yours, but adverbs don't have anything to do with it. 'Simply' is unnecessary in the sentence, but I think that's okay since it's in first person. In first person I think it's acceptable to forego word efficiency to establish a more conversational voice. In third person that's annoying. It would actually sound weird if you got rid of it in this instance unless you replaced it with 'just,' in which case 'just' would be used as an adverb anyway.

Another recommendation: just write your rough draft however feels natural without worrying about the details so much. Then workshop it. If you get too heavy with the adverbs someone will point it out.

aliensoul77's picture
aliensoul77 from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall. December 29, 2011 - 9:57pm

SUDDENLY, this thread got really, really interesting but sincerely so.  Oh, however, I do love a good adverb to spice things up, surely.

Raelyn's picture
Raelyn from California is reading The Liars' Club December 29, 2011 - 10:07pm

Adverbs are fine for me until I notice that the writer is using adverbs. Like razor said, if you modify every verb with an adverb, you're going too far. I notice this in young adult novels. It's as if the authors don't think their readers could understand actual description, so they use adverbs as a cop out. 

Fritz's picture
Fritz December 29, 2011 - 11:31pm

I've noticed that rough drafts have adverbs (along with a lot of passivity -was,etc...).  I believe that the more you know the characters, the setting, and the story the less you use adverbs and passivity.  It's a strength of vision to know what is going on in your story.  So, a good rule of thumb: - if you notice a ton of adverbs in your writing then consider the possibility that you may need to examine how well you know the character and where they are and what is going on.

@ Razor:  Kinda backing up what you were saying.  But I will add - as writers one of our main jobs is to be invisible to the reader.  Adverbs work against that end (of course - in general - there is a time and place)

jl85's picture
jl85 from originally East Tennessee now Southern California is reading everything I can December 29, 2011 - 11:48pm

I think, for the most part, everyone made pretty good pointers. When I'm working on a first draft my "inner editor" comes out way to much and I focus on the mundane things, such as whether I should use an adverb in a certain sentence or not. 

@Bryan I almost spewed beer through my nose when I read your comment :)

@Misskokamon really enjoyed the salt analogy as well, made a lot of sense.

@Raelyn I hate when something repetitive stands out like that and becomes distracting. I myself am some sort of a coma whore for whatever reason. I have to go back and re-read what I've written to make sure I'm not just throwing in commas for no reason.

@Fritz good thumb rule to keep in mind :) First drafts for me are always the hardest since I am still trying to figure everything out about my characters and settings and so forth.

On a side note, the story I'm working on that this whole discussion came from is about cannibals (kind of has a bizarro feel to it though lol).

Raelyn's picture
Raelyn from California is reading The Liars' Club December 29, 2011 - 11:50pm

Josef, I do the same thing. When I write I tend to put commas where I would pause in the sentence. Usually, though, where I place them is grammatically incorrect. I love commas! They're like breath notes in music for stories.

jl85's picture
jl85 from originally East Tennessee now Southern California is reading everything I can December 30, 2011 - 12:01am

Lol I agree, to me they are like a fucking visual symphony and no matter what I do, they end up in my sentences!

Arkadia's picture
Arkadia from Australia is reading Selected Poems by W.H. Auden December 30, 2011 - 8:48am

I am on the death-to-adverbs train when I'm writing stories (although I use them lusciously in my everyday speech ;)). As with anything in writing, it's not a hard and fast rule that you shouldn't use adverbs, but unless it is responsible for the perfect sentence, generally they should be avoided in favor of stronger descriptions.

Words like simply, very, extremely, completely, etc almost always weaken prose. I think of them as 'undermining words'. Words a writer slips in when they're afraid the reader won't believe them unless the writer assures them they're being told the truth. Instead of stating facts -- I couldn’t make myself stare that long -- it seems like they are trying to convince them: I simply couldn't make myself stare that long. I find that a sentence is nearly always stronger when you drop those types of adverbs (and most adverbs in general). The reader is more inclined to trust you, and therefore the believability of your story. Try to avoid using adverbs for a story or two and see how much stronger your prose becomes.

 

postpomo's picture
postpomo from Canada is reading words words words December 30, 2011 - 9:26am

I abnormally like them.

Arkadia's picture
Arkadia from Australia is reading Selected Poems by W.H. Auden December 30, 2011 - 10:17am

You're rather fustily normal.

Typewriter Demigod's picture
Typewriter Demigod from London is reading "White Noise" by DeLilo, "Moby-Dick" by Hermann Mellivile and "Uylsses" by Joyce December 30, 2011 - 11:24am

Elmore Leonard said: I have a character in one of my books tell how she used to write historical romances ''full of rape and adverbs.''

jl85's picture
jl85 from originally East Tennessee now Southern California is reading everything I can December 30, 2011 - 12:55pm

@typewriter I like it

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts December 30, 2011 - 2:19pm

Ideally you would probably want to cut every word that either isn't important to the story, or a word the reader would tend to skip over. But that usually ends up as flavorless Lish-lit anyway.

I think Clevenger referenced the Dylan Thomas poem, that "Do Go Unto Your Grave" would have totally missed the point.

Nick Wilczynski's picture
Nick Wilczynski from Greensboro, NC is reading A Dance with Dragons by George R.R. Martin December 30, 2011 - 2:35pm

Don't use two consecutive adverbs or use them in two consecutive opportunities. But even with that advice it is possible to overdo it. I'm not in the no adverbs club, but the applications are more limited than this rule of thumb seems to imply.

If adverbs do their job right they should contribute to the cadence and flow of the sentence as a sentence, rather than really drawing any sort of picture of their own. As a tool for building individual slabs of wordplay they are alright, but as a storytelling tool they are completely worthless.

Fylh's picture
Fylh from from from is reading is from is reading is reading is reading reading is reading December 30, 2011 - 4:44pm

Asking a writer if he likes adverbs sounds, to me, like asking someone with a garden shed full of tools if he likes crowbars. And if he happens to hold an opinion on the nature of crowbars in general he may be very interesting but he's still going to end up just using the crowbar as a crowbar.

postpomo's picture
postpomo from Canada is reading words words words December 31, 2011 - 8:11am

as an avid gardener, I'm amazed at how often I could have used a crowbar.

 

jl85's picture
jl85 from originally East Tennessee now Southern California is reading everything I can December 31, 2011 - 12:55pm

I guess it works for bashing the shit out of a corn stalk or two

postpomo's picture
postpomo from Canada is reading words words words December 31, 2011 - 1:17pm

and persuading big fucking rocks out of the ground - and dibbling holes for leeks & celery - and uprooting big fucking weeds - and for defending my tomatoes against thieving raccoons - and...

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts January 1, 2012 - 2:02am

I've tried previously to persuad the rocks to come out of the ground by dangling a piece of flank steak on a string above them and making kissing noises, saying 'here rocky rocky. Oh come on, rock. You don't wanna come out and play?' Crowbar sounds much more effective.

jl85's picture
jl85 from originally East Tennessee now Southern California is reading everything I can January 1, 2012 - 2:08am

Or for beating the shit out of zombies who are near your garden

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts January 1, 2012 - 2:24am

They'd only be hanging around if you grew livers and thigh muscles in your garden, which, you know, would be slightly creepy on its own.

postpomo's picture
postpomo from Canada is reading words words words January 1, 2012 - 2:44am

ironically, they are absolutely useless against crows

 

bryanhowie's picture
bryanhowie from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING. January 1, 2012 - 11:50am

You mean they aren't tiny taverns for crows to drink at?  Well, I have been misled.

postpomo's picture
postpomo from Canada is reading words words words January 1, 2012 - 12:38pm

those bars are illegal - the gatherings always ended up with a murder

Profunda Saint-Sylvain's picture
Profunda Saint-... from Calgary, AB is reading Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy Series January 3, 2012 - 4:13pm

That right there is pure gold.