Every time I open a lit magazine I end up in the back studying the brief author bios. (I don't know what I am looking for, I may as well be looking at tea leaves)
Based on my 'highly scientific' survey, it would appear that a great deal of them have MFAs. So here is where I out myself as a person with scientific training...
Is this causality or association?
The association hypothesis: People who like to write get drawn into MFAs because the idea of reading and writing all of the hours of all of the days is pretty damn enticing.
The causality hypothesis: pursuing an MFA actually makes you a much better writer. (Though this one then raises the questions which if it could be supported by data would actually support the association hypothesis as well--> Is it the MFA that is making you better or is this more of an issue of intensity of practice?)
I can imagine a scenario in which a literary magazine is drowning under submissions, so begins to look at cover letters that say the writer had an MFA as this could be used as a basic quality control mechanism (the writer had to apply to programs, get accepted, complete the coursework which would have included lots of reading and writing--a certain amount of practice). Past publications would be another way to weed. (Though it seems like it might be better to ignore cover letters and just go straight to the first paragraph...)
Anyway, curious what people here think. (full disclosure, I would love to go back to school to study creative writing and/or English. I studied health sciences.)
I believe there was a thread (can't remember what it was called) which argued MFAs being somewhat detrimental because it encouraged formulaic writing. I'm not ready to agree or disagree with that. What I can say is that you only need an MFA if you want to teach, not to write.
I'd say it's more your association hypothesis. Law of averages: they write a lot, submit a lot, and are more aggressive about trying to get quality publishing credits. And their stories probably are better, if not in plot then at least in technique, due to their extensive study of the form. A lot of unschooled writers aren't particularly well-read. Then again, some MFAers are so concerned with literary forms and techniques that the stories lack a certain spectacle that your average reader finds more exciting. And they're better-connected in the networking department, might have a bit of a name/reputation.
I think there is a secret door behind getting your MFA that increases your chances of getting published. Just think about this. Most of the professors who teach MFA programs are published writers. Or there is a professor in the MFA program that is a published writer. Now selection for MFA programs is limited...at least to reputable ones. So there is a lot of personal time with each of these professors. So the possibility of finishing a piece of work, and having someone with an in for a publishing house is much greater.
"Hey John"
"What's up Mike"
"I got an MFA student sending you some work, can you check it out?"
"Sure, just make sure he does X when he submits."
"Awesome, thanks. Golf next week?"
Yeah, you're buying."
Got it."
I think it all goes something like that. Networking is what life is all about.
The key to anything is repetition and practice. An MFA forces you to read and write intensively. I can't remember who it was, maybe Richard, who said he thought the biggest benefit was figuring out in a few years what might have taken eight otherwise. I think it falls to your theory of association. In an MFA, you write a lot, read a lot, and connect to others within the profession, all of which can be helpful in writing. But none of it needs an MFA to do it. You can write without it. You can read without it. You can network through writer's groups, literary events, and conferences. You can find critique groups. The benefit is that the MFA does all that for you and puts it in the same place. You also become qualified to teach writing. I think it would be great if you could get funding for it, but I don't know that I would pay it out of pocket in my current situation. I am actually getting a Master's in literary criticism, which was much cheaper, but also won't give you creative writing training.
Double post, somehow.
I don't think I've actually mentioned that I have an MFA in one of my bios.
Edit: Oh wait. I googled and found one.
I agree with Jose. If you have someone in literary circles watching out for you, because you are in their MBA program, it helps you out. That is the way it is in every profession though.
I was thinking about this and then today went to look at some craft essays on the site and noticed the blurb for the Chuck Palahniuk essays: 'The knowledge here is equivalent to what you'd get in an MFA program'.
I've read every craft essay on this site at least once. So am I not getting published just because I don't know the right people? (I actually haven't submitted anything for publication, but if you read my stuff in the workshop you'll see that it's not up to a publishable standard. Yet.)
No, knowledge isn't enough. On an MFA program you'll (I'm guessing) get your work critiqued by published writers or professors on a regular basis. It's one thing to read about showing and telling, it's another to have someone pull you up every time you do it until you get the damn message.
I also wonder how much writing is like musical performance. There are people who are technically skilled on their instrument, but lack the ability to inspire, to move, to move beyond prodiciency to art. Which is of course subjective. How do you measure talent, and how is talent different from mastery of devices and skills? (and this no longer has much to do with education programs...)
As one who does both (we are many …), I think that's exactly what it's like. Me, I've always viewed myself way more as craftsman than artist. I was born no prodigy, just worked really hard at both until I had a big enough palette to not limit my expression on the instrument. With that freedom comes confidence. It takes me longer than most people to come up with good story ideas, but once they arrive, they tend to be executed pretty meticulously. Can readers tell the difference between that, and something that's inspired but amateur? I think so, but is one better than the other? Depends on my mood. It's like left- vs right-brain sustenance.
I do believe that people can learn how to be more receptive to inspiration, however, to keep that antenna up and functional.
That is a nice way to describe it: Craftsman
Interesting topic Scrivener.
Not sure precisely how to word it, but I feel somewhere there's a false dichotomy lurking in the discussion.
It's not whether MFA's are better than non-MFA's, it's whether a writer with an MFA is better than he or she would be without that MFA (and personally I think the answer is clearly yes--though results can vary).
I think everyone on this website would agree that you can learn to become a better writer. Therefore an education, formal or non-formal, is necessary. A solid MFA program with good teachers (think Iowa) is simply the writing world's attempt to provide that education most effeciently.
I agree with your and Gordon's music analogy, but again whether craftsman or artist, the goal should be maximizing your own potential. The laboring craftman and the inspired amateur would both benefit immensely from the Julliard School of Music.
Anyone who has completed an MFA has taken a serious step toward maximizing their own talent. You can do that without an MFA, but it will usually take longer, and the vast majority will fail to find their way. It's not a guarantee, but it is a serious head start.
For some reason writers are particularly stubborn about what is common sense in most other pursuits. If you want to be an MMA champion, would you try to train at a world class gym (Greg Jackson's, Cesar Gracie's), or out of your garage? We cling to the Hemingway example, but the education Hemingway received in Paris is exactly what the modern MFA attempts to emulate.
^ Bingo. Well said.
I don't tell anyone I have a masters unless I'm 1) complaining (because it took forever for me to get a proper job) or 2) applying for a proper job. I learned a lot in my program and appreciate the entire experience. Am I happy about paying off my loan the same year my son enters college? No. Would I be in the same place I am with my writing (wherever that is) if I had instead took two years of work and just wrote and read and talked about books with like-minded people? Dunno, because I didn't. Would I have been able to teach in college or get my current job without a masters? Probably not.
I think the most important thing in the MFA discussion is figuring out where you want to end up and how much you're willing to sacrifice. Increasingly, colleges are requiring PhDs for full-time, and a life as an adjunct is not sustainable (as my liver will attest.)
Love the Hemingway "comparison". I would think there is quite a niche for someone with your scientific background to write for a diversity of publications. From there, you could consider branching out to less nonfiction and more "creative" - if you choose to do so. You could get your name out there and then decide where you want to go. If you have the time AND the money to go for the MFA and think you would enjoy it, by all means do so. But networking and gaining connections online, especially on sites based around online communities, would seem just as important.
And, it seems like as with many other professions, once you are noticed, it all falls into place - it's just getting to your breakout point - ie actors that are "breakout stars" after working in the profession for 10 years.
I am also a bit biased here. I am a history professor but also know that graduate school of any type can be just as political (or more so) as the rest of the world. With a structure graduate school program like the MFA, you are under someone else's rules and timelines. If you need that and/or think it will benefit you, then graduate school may be the best route for you.
I had a great experience at the Iowa Writers' Festival last summer and would highly recommend it. In fact, that is how I found LitReactor because our instructor also teaches here (Holiday Reinhorn).
Good luck!
Having no MFA, I couldn't say, but the more I've heard and seen, the more I've been coming around to the idea that I don't want to teach, so there's really no point, especially given that I'd likely incur shitloads of debt. I'm considering a master's in library science instead, assuming that I can fund it. I have no desire to be in debt, especially for something like an MFA which is a far cry from a guarantee of employment (almost the opposite, it seems, these days), so am trying to think more practically. I'd love to be in a writing program and just get to focus on all that stuff exclusively, of course, and I certainly think it would make you a better writer.
But it won't make you a perfect writer, and you can still have an MFA and suck. I read submissions for a magazine and can attest to the fact that credentials and good writing are not the same thing, mostly because a good story and good writing are not the same thing. It's getting the two to combine that's the hard part, as many great stories are horribly written, and many boring, inexcusably derivative stories are crafted with a high degree of skill. There are people writing interesting but unpublishable stories out there that I wish were in some kind of program so they could understand that their manuscripts are disasters, riddled with problems that make it impossible to publish them. And, of course, there are others who I wish weren't in a program so they could understand that just because you say it well doesn't mean it was ever worth saying.
Ultimately, one needs to write and to love writing, and to understand, be it through reading or instruction or whatever else, what excites and magnifies the human heart in fiction. It helps to have good people to talk about it with. It helps to have instruction. It helps to read lots of stuff. But the avenues that get you there aren't really the important part, because we're all different, and the path most obvious for some might not be for you.
I suppose that is the tough part---knowing if you have something worthwhile to say. The techniques can be learned, while the inspiration cannot. I read for a fiction magazine in college, and we ended up choosing some stories that were less well written simply because they had something to say. I am taking a class right now at the local college, and it was totally surprised when 3 of 12 of the people had written almost the same thing on a writing prompt. And then we had another writing prompt and the same thing happened again. That is something I really like about this site---there is a lot of variety, and some humor, in the workshop. It is not all dead babies and jilted lovers.
Well, I have 18 months left of my English and Philosophy major and then it is time to apply for MFAs. I am one who wants to teach and write and network and do this writing thing for a living. I want to experience everything that is associated with it, good and/or bad. I want to have done everything I possibly could to become the best writer I possibly can. I don't want to look back and think, maybe if I had done X. I'm just going to get every degree, write what moves me, and let everything fall where it may. I don't expect to make money from my writing, but it would be nice. I expect to create something that will live after I die. That is my only hope. That is the only thing I wish will happen. Maybe it moves people, maybe it doens't, but it will be out there in the world to do either.
I'm going to take every loan, get every penny out of whomever wants to finance me so I can write. I don't really care if I rack up $10 or $10,000,000 in loans and debt. I will write in jail if I can't pay it off, I will write wherever. Maybe, if I'm lucky I will be able to pay it off. The only thing I know for sure is they can't collect from a corpse.
The art is all that matters. If others want to play monopoly, then let them.
Not to point out the obvious, but it might vary by program.
For those of you who've finished their MBA, (Update: MFA)
Have you seen any international students there? What's a chance of an international student getting accepted?
I've been wanting to apply for MFA for a long time, but persuaded myself otherwise when I bought "Portable MFA" books and read some articles about how competitive some programs
English is my second language, but I've a high TOEFL and GRE scores. I have written a short guidebook, blog articles, short film script and few draft short stories over the last five years since college.
What's a less competitive MFA program that admits international students? I won't go too picky and ask for affordable ones. Even if I sell my house and pay for it, would I have a chance?
I can only address two states, Alabama and Georgia (no groaning guys, please!). Atlanta might be your better chance, although University of Alabama in Birmingham does have a good many international students, mostly in the medical and health majors. We have a good research facility for those two subjects as well. This doesn't address the Fine Arts issue, but you did say MBA, and Alabama has an excellent program. Georgia State in Atlanta is also good, but overshadowed by Emory.
I'm also biased toward U of North Carolina Chapel Hill; they have an outstanding MFA program.
Southern states are on the whole cheaper to live in; Atlanta has more dining, museums, music venues and bars than Birmingham; that said, quantity doesn't necessarily equate to quality. And Birmingham is a lot closer to the beautiful Gulf Coast beaches (3-1/2 hours).
I'd suggest researching institutions and their profiles of students as well as availability of student loans, etc., although every educational institution will tell you it's expensive and money is tight. Might want to bring your bucks with you, especially if the dollar is worth less than your currency at present. Do you know anyone over there who knows someone professionally over here in any state? That might help.
To the original, I don't even have a bachelor's degree. After spending a lot of money I didn't have at a private university where I didn't belong, studying a major I shouldn't have chosen - I joined the military instead. I debate going back to school often. I've published every story I've subbed but one. I will admit that I've been asked for stories from people who knew me before, but they either a) knew the specific story from reading it here or exchanging work, or b) knew other writing of mine and asked me to submit alongside everyone else. I am confident I've never been published because I was someone's drinking buddy, and I've definitely never been published because of my academic pedigree (since I don't have one).
I would guess you see MFA in a lot of bios for one of two reasons: People who spend a lot of time and money on MFAs definitely want to believe it is important enough to include on their bio (jury is out on that theory, but they have a vested interest) OR you're looking for MFA without realizing it/looking for what's different in their bio than yours/etc.
@ReneeaAP
I deeply apologize for the following rant: :)
Guess I should have added, it really doesn't matter in most cases. He seemed to want to come to US for courses and/or a degree, and I'm always going to encourage folks to visit our big part of the world.
I support the military. My dad was in Guam and part of the ground crew of the Enola Gay. I grew up in a low- to middle-class Deep South neighborhood, and one way out of our city when steel mill jobs dried up, for most of my friends' older brothers and sisters (4-6 years+), especially guys, was the military. It's a good deal, or it was, unless they've changed it? You get some (hopefully most!) of your degree paid for. I'm supporting legislation in my state to give vets some kind of college credit for the skills they've learned while serving in any of the wars since WW2, and I hope that'll make them more attractive job applicants.
I worked my ass off to get to college and then to earn my BA and my masters. I did work/study and in addition worked full-time jobs for both of my degrees; I had no help from anyone except the scholarships I earned. Yes, I'm sorry, I have a big chip on my shoulder. Being from the South makes you work harder; there's a big lack of respect right off the bat, a lot of prejudice, and that's why I didn't tell most people where I came from when I was younger. I'm older now, and my attitude is, F-bomb them, if they can't handle it. Yes, I can read & write! and I wear shoes and socks (when it's cold)! I have smart-ass second cousins from Washington DC who always give me sh*t when we have reunions, which is why I don't go anymore. That plus the fact that I'm way left of their political views.
I think if you have a gift or talent or whatever you want to call it to create, whether it is literature, acting, music, dance, or art or whatever, if you trust that, and keep at it, then you'll get somewhere--hopefully you'll make your mark and we'll see/hear/read it. I have friends who have made it against all odds in the music industry (anybody here know about anything about our history in the recording studios? not to mention recent players: Alabama Shakes, St.Paul); I celebrate it everytime I see them.
I'm glad, Renee, that you've been published. I enjoy your posts, and I agree an academic pedigree doesn't equal talent. I think this guy wants to come to the US, and go to school, so I was responding to that.
No harm, no foul, ok? And most importantly, I'm not jumping you up--I just got my dander raised on general principles, so please accept my apology if I offended.
Oh, rats, I forgot to add: never had a damn thing published!
But I have edited some awesome books and met some great writers and some fantastic musicians, sung backup among friends. I've discovered I really don't like the spotlight; I'm a great support/background person. It's good to know what you're best at and to have fun doing it.
Oh, snap. I've misspelled the MFA as MBA up there.
@justwords,
Thanks a lot for the advice. I'll look into University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I've been researching P&W's top fifty MFA program indices over the past few days. But yeah, I'll pick quiet, scenic colleges over crowded, metropolitan campuses any day.
I admire other people with the same passion in writing, squeezing in writing into their busy schedule, overcoming against all odds, working their way to success. (Actually I think ReneeAPickup was responding to TheScrivener's original post, and she wasn't offended or anything...um, right, @ReneeAPickup?)
The thing about writing in Mongolia is that I'm constantly surrounded by non-English speakers. Sure, I'm constantly reading and often writing in English, but I won't get to speak as much, and there isn't anyone to read my work and give immediate feedback unless I e-mail someone (although I have high hopes for LR!)
Despite all the idea jotting down, reading, writing, my learning process is slower than you guys. My return of investment in learning about the craft from a systematic and collaborative environment like MFA is greater than roughing it on my own, for sure. Or at least that's how I see it.
But I hear the MFA's are very competitive and pick only few students, much less international ones. So I'm not thinking whether it's worth doing or not. I'm thinking whether I can get admitted in one, or if I should apply for another program (like Public Policy is my best bet, based on my past work) and do the writing on the side.
Thanks a lot for listening, by the way.
Justwords -- no idea what that was about, man. I was responding directly to the original post, which I said at the beginning of my comment.The original post was talking about how a lot of writers list an MFA in their bios, and wanted to know if it was correlative or causative, that's the only reason I brought up my education and publishing history.
Renee -- Please accept my apologies; suffice it to say I shouldn't have gone online last night. I came home from a long emotion-filled evening with a long-time friend who is going through some big things right now, some of which I have experienced. I'm sorry about my craziness, ok? I'm usually a nice person. I promise.
Hope you'll forgive the out-of-bounds comments, ok?
