Flybywrite's picture
Flybywrite from Rocky Point, Long Island is reading The Bride Comes to Yellow Sky, by Stephen Crane October 17, 2012 - 7:57am

       My thoughts on the question above about overwriting might as well be overwritten.  It's by now an ancient problem to me.  I have gained a wee bit of experience, it seems, in regards to what seems like an ancient, common problem with mysterious borders. 

      I think of my overwriting problem in a committment to the idea that its undeniably my most formidable and many-tentacled obstacle, to writing really good stuff instead of dribble, and therefore as an obstacle that needs sandblasting out of my life.  But clearly its also an entrenched thing, this kind of always reaching for the connections but forgetting what the hell they're fictionally connected to -- and there you go thirty pages of crap that occludes rather than enhances.  And what fun it is to read crap that doesn't have a thing that so much as resembles a ground a week later?

       So there is this ancient question of when a gift with wordd is real and serves the fiction, and when it is artifice and serves a twisted narcissist, pounding some self-absorbed fir or another into a keyboard mirror.  I think especially since to some extent any sort of fictional attempt is artifice there's danger of running for the hills from the truths about the characters in their respective situations.

       If I, the condemned overwriter, let's say, hypothetically, were to gather together enough words that would prefer to visit space then it becomes much easier to run from the truth of characters, and to run from caring enough about their environments and situations to describe them well. So there in the objective distance of ideas where everything still bleeds, but in a sense (once the sensual grit of real life vanishes) bloodlessly, the chance for an interesting fiction goes dark.

       Every scene, I would say, if I were forced at gunpoint to guess, hypothetically, is seen backwards through a telescope from a nameless Pluto where mercifully enough no other human beings are in sight, And from a place as airless and cold as that, even profuse bleeding bleeds bloodlessly.  From this lofty and perhaps dark-blue vantage point, the writer's own attitude toward his fiction can grow darker and more distant; I'm pretty sure about this. 

      It becomes the usual existential poof well done or poorly done, and how many light years are really noticing anyway, and so why not throw dark, disconnected pictures all over your creation, so another darkly self-absorbed  thing nobody cares for comes rushing into existence flying in on a bad mood, and because it is ether that makes no imapct flying out in a worse one.

        But that's just the bad stuff.  I think a bad overwritng problem, and one that let's say, as an objective, scientific guess, has been repeatedly and repeatedly diagnosed as such yet sticks around, is yes a little on the mental side, sure.  But I feel or at least hope there is also a very real and good side to it.  However darkness-born and self-centered these years full of ranting rather than fiction writing, have hypothetically been all of their arrows by the use of negative propulsion consistently fly for the light. 

       It seems to me to compulsively overwrite, like some damn genius you don't even know must appear every time one's literate ass-crack hits a chair, is a two-sided coin of sorts. From work to work there's always potential for one very shiny side and one very dark side, and little in between them.  All sorts of art lovers are around getting their many points across, and that makes it a bit confusing, but its pretty much universally acknowledged the shiniest stuff we get to know in this world is hardly the prosaic.  Its always the dream to emerge from the empiric; too many coffins left behind and yet to be, if you ask me.  But the problem with too lofty aspirations, in the form of a work and its style  (like that damn movie The Master that kept me squirming and dying to leave all through) can produce either the most horrifyingly boring stuff imaginable (ieeeeeeeeee, this discussion) of thrilling and interesting work that writer's are capable of. 

      So sorry for all the talking to myself.  The subject of overwriting does a lot more than send me down a thousand roads with bags full of questions, so please, anyone weigh in with whatever you feel like about overwriter's syndrome and symptoms from the hot reds to the cold blues, if you had 'em or got 'em.  I'm currently about getting at the light that leads to good fiction instead of the endless novel, "Mein Crap" with work where the narration is mercifully reduced to a minimum and primarily transportive, and in which two or more characters are right there up front interacting, and dialog is never far away.  I thin it's helping, so gonna go to it on this short story I'm writing for the workshop called Burning Professionals.  

        Anyway, yeah, the bright side.  Let's say, hypothetically of course, there's a bright side.  Then I may imagine perhaps some flagrant twisted-mirror gawker, learning over a streak of time or preferably forever how to take figurative flights that are effectively tangential to an interesting plot.  And more importantly, the right proportion between landings and taking off that has the ground of his characters and their situations as a first priority in to out, and really the one and only priority, so that each one of them though they are vaporous lifes will feel unique in their experience.  Because that's a shot at empathy that reaches readers and helps them feel a truth about this world in turn, rather than a solitary exercise in Plutonian (is Plutonian still a word, or was it ever, and if so, have the scientists put the kibosh on it) egg-headedness, 

      So, damn the length of everything I write.  But the point is even a good attempt at turning my too massive, first draft of a novel into a very good fiction, with a red heartbeat would be, it seems to me, unscientifically speaking, miraculous.  So thanks for the time.  Rx, Flyby. 

Brandon's picture
Brandon from KCMO is reading Made to Break October 17, 2012 - 8:07am

You sir, are a tl;dr magnet.

Boone Spaulding's picture
Boone Spaulding from Coldwater, Michigan, U.S.A. is reading Solarcide Presents: Nova Parade October 17, 2012 - 9:32am

Q: Why on earth overwrite?

A1: To get the first draft. Getting a draft as black-on-white is fundemental. 

A2: To find out what works and what doesn't. Editing is easier than drafting.

 

Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs October 17, 2012 - 7:32pm

I confess that I didn't read the original post in its entirety, but people overwrite because:

1) They are a new writer

2) They do not take the advice of those who read their writing

3) No one reads their writing, therefore no one gives them advice

4) They are H.P. Lovecraft or think they are H.P. Lovecraft

ReneeAPickup's picture
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck Wendig October 17, 2012 - 7:41pm

I'll add--sometimes you need to write "that" to get "there". That's what revision is for.

Covewriter's picture
Covewriter from Nashville, Tennessee is reading & Sons October 17, 2012 - 8:56pm

I didn't read the original post in its entirety because it was over written. Was that the point of it? Maybe so. I love flowery writing when it's  good and long sentences but getting a point across usually can be done with a few words. My rule is try not to bore people. I'm sure I do, though. 

Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs October 17, 2012 - 9:57pm

Most classical works of literature can be viewed as being overwritten. It all depends on the modern style. If you mostly read books like that, it's probably the reason why you overwrite. Perhaps read some minimalism: Hemingway, Amy Hempel, Anne Beattie's Chilly Scenes of Winter, Richard Stark.

MattF's picture
MattF from Tokyo is reading Borges' Collected Fictions October 18, 2012 - 5:55am

Just saw this current NYT opinion piece by Ben Masters, "A Short Defense of Literary Excess," seemed pertinent to the discussion (I think; didn't read the whole first post):

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/a-short-defense-of-liter...

Flybywrite's picture
Flybywrite from Rocky Point, Long Island is reading The Bride Comes to Yellow Sky, by Stephen Crane October 18, 2012 - 9:04pm

Yeah, I just think at times, everything is so geared toward succinct, and fast, fast, fast, and inteconnective, and easily digestible, and entertaining as all get out are now all the rage.    So the second long sentences appear, the overwriting alarm goes off, and a really boring time seems to inevitably lie in wait.

        A lot of times a boring time is, lying in wait.  But it's not always the case.  Such writing can be, and so, so often has been in the past, absolutely miraculous in what it can do.  It wasn't so long ago in the world before phones, and for a while after phones, if not TV, when incredibly long sentences were all the rage. Okay, so this sounds geezerish, and somebody, please, get me a baby bottle full of warm milk with the word nostalgia written across it in little boy blue, but what a lovely time it must have been when the likes of Melville and Poe and Hawthorne and James and Joyce and Conrad and Crane and Faulkner, and that Kierkegaard chap and etc. and etc. were writing books full of mile long, figure-filled sentences that had to be figured out and speculated upon, and that's what people wanted to read and do.  For instance, I have no idea whatsoever what a "tr;dl magnet" is, and since Brandon above has told me I am one, I'd like to be able to hold that meaning up to the light and check it for signs of accuracy. 

     Today, many people won't read past a few lines if they think an author is getting too fancy for his own britches, and has the audacity (which authority has) or the stupidity (which incompetence has) to demand the interpretive.  It's audacity I think in a sense to demand a slow down and an element of explication from the reader. It reeks of someone behind the scenes who is posing and thinks their a big wheel, and so I guess it's natural to suspect a writer may not be worth the time and effort once sentences grow too long or full of figurative flair.

      But in the meantime these are just the facts: a long sentence can do a lot more than a short one, and an absurdly long sentence (unless you blow the structure and it just sucks and the meaning disintegrates which is easy to do) can do a lot more than just a long one.  It's a simple straight fact that long, poetic sentences can to various degrees escape the objective realm, and also escape the short, punchy figurative (which by its nature has to be nearly objective and create a punchy picture, to reduce a thought and move things along) and can pass go right into the airy climates of the complex conceptual.  But its also true the subjective/psychological, the more hidden world of poetic connections, is no action packed one, so in a long fiction the ground has to dominate and the other skillfully integrated, by the way the narrator transports what happens as he gets his two or three cents in.

Anyway, it seems a lot of the consensus is it's about balance and getting the right mix, and making sure whatever of style serves the hopefully entertaining story at hand.  That's why I'm stuck on the subject.  I'm struggling (or at least I think I am) to get a right mix in a short story called Burning Professionals I've been breaking my head over for about a month or so, that I hope to put in the workshop either tomorrow of early next week.  So, I think I'm looking forward to that, and enough outta me.  

Bradley Sands's picture
Bradley Sands from Boston is reading Greil Marcus's The History of Rock 'N' Roll in Ten Songs October 18, 2012 - 9:15pm

 But in the meantime these are just the facts: a long sentence can do a lot more than a short one, and an absurdly long sentence

That's really not true at all. It depends on the sentence. Many short sentences do "a lot more," are more powerful, and/or reveal more than a longer sentence. Sometimes what goes unsaid tells a great deal. And overall, deleting extraneous words creates stronger sentences.

JEFFREY GRANT BARR's picture
JEFFREY GRANT BARR from Central OR is reading Nothing but fucking Shakespeare, for the rest of my life October 19, 2012 - 12:56am

I heard you like commas, so we put some commas in your commas so you can comma while you comma. 

Seb's picture
Seb from Thanet, Kent, UK October 19, 2012 - 1:16am

The clocks stopped at 1:17. A long sheer of light and then a series of low concussions.

- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

I agree long sentences can portray more than short ones in some settings, in others short are possibly better. Fleming spends pages describing Bond's watch and cigarette lighter. Cormac McCarthy (above) ends the world in two sentences.

Read this essay, it might help: http://litreactor.com/essays/craig-clevenger/the-devil-in-the-details

Pretty Spry for a Dead Guy's picture
Pretty Spry for... October 19, 2012 - 1:43am

For some authors, overwriting is such a fundamental part of who they are that it is impossible to imagine the one without the other, and these authors are so good at writing that the "over" hardly matters. I like to refer to these authors as "Ray Bradbury" and, occasionally, "William Faulkner." [If the audience demands a separate term for a female author, because sexism, I might call said author "Angela Carter."]

For the rest of us, there's a vicious learning process that involves determining what enhances the text and what doesn't and eliminating the latter. The only method I know for this is voracious reading of others and voracious editing of oneself.

Flybywrite's picture
Flybywrite from Rocky Point, Long Island is reading The Bride Comes to Yellow Sky, by Stephen Crane October 19, 2012 - 5:29am

Yeah, I should watch it when I write things things like, these are the facts.  Because I've heard that "facts all come from points of view and facts don't do what you want them to and facts just twist the truth around and facts are living turned inside out.  So maybe it's stupid of me to say short sentences "do more" like its a contest, Maybe it's truer to say long (with comma after comma after comma after colon, until the commas themselves spawn commas) and short sentences just have different functions.  So like pride and humility eventually have to meet, embrace, get to know each other all through, make love not war, or whatever, maybe a writer needs to get in touch with his reductive/objective and expansive/conceptual sides.  

I don't want to declare it a fact, but it does seem a paradoxical truth that these are entirely separate realms that have everything and nothing to do with each other. So if fiction with an ambitious premise and style works for a great writer, its partly dependent on that ability he or she (I'm thinking that Virginia Woolf wrote some real beauties) has to bounce back and forth between the two, as their fiction demands. They use their skill only to serve the story, rather than the posing and preening bit.  Anyway, I do agree that thinking about these issues, and the voracious work between writing and reading Brett suggests, in his cool final paragraph, are the ways that create a chance for a good fiction to happen.

So, this discussion has been constructive for me, and I thank everybody for their input.