bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.May 24, 2012 - 9:32am
Those aren't my pants, but I'd totally rock them.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerMay 24, 2012 - 9:35am
@Howie I figured they'd be your style.
@Ren and AD- I just have to suspend myself. I actually got mad at my character the other day. Yeah, I'm fucking nuts. But actually mad because he made a choice I didn't agree with it. I think in a way it is similar to method acting. It's the only way I've been able to write.
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsMay 24, 2012 - 9:59am
I have trouble not taking the emotions on myself I guess.
Maybe it's the opposite here then, you have to take on your character's conflict and ride it out until it's not there anymore. (some people don't like seeing big character change in short stories (when in novels the character change is the whole point,) or they don't understand it or it's hard to pull off, but I think it's important. But that's a bigger discussion that can't be contained in parentheses.) There's that one past transgression that fucks up you're character from doing what they need to do and you have to let that make you feel weak and struggle to overcome that, and somehow put that all on the page without killing yourself in between.
Or maybe this is all too conceptual and pretentious.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersMay 24, 2012 - 10:06am
Yeah - but I like conceptual and pretentious.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.May 24, 2012 - 12:45pm
Or maybe this is all too conceptual and pretentious.
That doesn't mean it's not true. It's a good character exercise.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.May 24, 2012 - 1:54pm
Authoritative writing means requiring the reader to do a bit of the work too, so ultimately they can enjoy the pleasure of feeling that he/she has discovered something, rather than the less rewarding pleasure of simply acknowledging that he/she has seen what “tricks” the author has performed. Authority in fiction reveals a narrative that is aware, but it also implies another kind of awareness: an acknowledgement and a respect for its reader.
Which is exaclty what I'd say the difference between showing and telling does for a reader. You give them the chance to discover for themself. Sometimes being told works better, but sometimes it's the interaction that a reader gets from being part of the story and getting to discover the 'something' that makes a story so fun.
Getting the right mix is key, but everyone is going to want a different amount.
When Clutch says, "I'm trying to tell a story after all, not show a story" I think people telling a ghost story around a fire in the woods. And it's a bit scary. Because if they showed you a ghost story (using words) around a dying fire in the middle of the depths of the forest while trees snap in the strangly cold breezes, a listener would shit their pants in fear.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerMay 24, 2012 - 2:22pm
Getting the right mix is key,"
My only issue is finding said mix. However, I REALLY just need to shit this first draft out and THEN go through all of this.
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsMay 24, 2012 - 3:33pm
Regarding authority (and tangentially showing and telling, but not addressed,) I've discovered while changing the POV in this rewrite I'm doing is that a lot of the narrative voice and the framing of the particular story was to undermine my own authority, which ties into a lot of the characteristics of my other stories and stuff I routinely experiment with, but in effect I've set up an unreliable narrator to tell things in spots that even I bought as reliable. There's so many conveniences with that voice that to get the same effects to work in the right places in a different framework. . . it's just fucking exhausting.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerMay 24, 2012 - 3:38pm
Give me an example of how it's an unreliable narrator. I could have swore I read something about this the other day. If it is consistent with the framework (even in a tangent) and somehow relevant, I don't see how that's unreliable.
EDIT: Besides, I don't entirely buy unreliable narrator. Not one human alive is consistent with everything all the time. Even characters lie to readers.
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsMay 24, 2012 - 4:04pm
I use language like "really, maybe, or," to suggest the opposite of what I say. There's habitual speech and future tense. The story itself accepts things inconcievably bizarre as truth, while including the narrator's own speculation to suggest complete other plots. Essentially, at least in the rewrite (I've taken out the main character entirely,) the entire story may or may not have happened. The point being that these are all masturbatory exericises and the story is probably unpublishable. It's in the workshop right now, and notes from editors I've sent it to suggest that it is "difficult" and "not for us," which I'm considering adding to my author bio.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersMay 24, 2012 - 4:09pm
I think of it as when my 3rd person narrator starts to get a little sassy.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerMay 24, 2012 - 4:17pm
Ha! How can third person get sassy? "Chuck walked down the hill, towards the ocean. Like a god damn idiot"
@Ren it sounds fragmentary and speculative. I would add those to your bio though.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.May 24, 2012 - 4:24pm
"Chuck walked down the hill, towards the ocean. Like a god damn idiot"
I would read the hell out of that story.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerMay 24, 2012 - 4:27pm
LOL, I do what I can.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.May 24, 2012 - 4:30pm
Write it right now. I command it.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersMay 24, 2012 - 4:39pm
"Chuck walked down the hill, towards the ocean. Like a god damn idiot"
Basically, yes. Sometimes I catch myself giving the 3rd person narrator attitude. And I have to bring it back in.
Also, I would read that story.
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsMay 24, 2012 - 4:44pm
You could argue that you're working in first-person omniscient with an unmentioned narrator.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.May 24, 2012 - 4:46pm
Shhhh... You're not supposed to mention the narrator, Ren.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerMay 24, 2012 - 4:52pm
Alright, I'm bored from packing and working on this draft of the novel. Here you needy fucks. Totally unedited.
Chuck walked down the hill, towards the ocean. Like a god damn idiot. Sarah sat amongst the dunes staring at the crash of wave, pushing closer to the shore and then retreating. He sat with a grunt next to her, his ass hanging out of his stupid hipster pants. His shitty non-prescription glasses pushing past the bridge of his nose. To anyone else the pair would appear at peace. He reached an arm around her and she shrugged it off.
"What is it?" He asked in his mousey beta male voice.
She sighed, turning away from him. "I just don't think we should see each other anymore."
His paleolithic eyes swelled with hot salt tears. "Why?"
"You're a hipster."
"I don't understand." He scratched his head, the fiery core that bled for Arcade Fire falling into the abyss that was his stomach. More tears, more waves.
"Exactly."
"What?" His voice trembled. He pulled his knees to his chest, turning away from her. The rip in his trendy two hundred dollar jeans widening.
"You like stupid shit. You enjoy PBR. You like wearing shirts that say beam me up hottie. You like alt. country. The worst part is, you live with your parents and off their trust fund. You work at Starbucks but have a degree. Get a fucking life." For four weeks she buried the simmering hate within her. It festered into a hot mass that exploded, demolishing the stupid man beside her.
His chin quivered against the lump in his throat. He turned to face her. "I love you."
"Exactly, we've only known each other for four weeks, what the fuck is wrong with you." She rose, dusting the sand off her backside. His dumb dopey eyes staring at her ass. She turned and noticed. She let out an angry breath and walked off.
That night, Chuck cut himself. Just to feel something.
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsMay 24, 2012 - 4:49pm
Well if you were working in first person omniscient you'd really be missing all the fun if you didn't mention the narrator.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersMay 24, 2012 - 4:56pm
"Chuck walked down the hill, towards the ocean. Like a god damn idiot."
This one line, made me think of Salinger.
But if you mention him, he isn't unmentioned. Then he's just a character.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerMay 24, 2012 - 4:58pm
I worked on that for a full five minutes (edit: the story not the line)! Also Ren is right. Then you could be as sassy as you want.
Never read any of his stuff.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersMay 24, 2012 - 4:58pm
Basically any time anyone anywhere says 'god damn' it makes me think of Salinger.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerMay 24, 2012 - 5:00pm
Maybe I should read some of his stuff. Seriously that is the most pointless thing I have ever written. No wait, the flash about a sandwich was.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.May 24, 2012 - 5:40pm
His dumb dopey eyes staring at her ass.
I like this line, too. You need to write your next story with this disapproving, angry voice. But "Chuck walked down the hill like a god damn idiot." is now my favorite simile ever.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerMay 24, 2012 - 5:51pm
Ha! I am glad you liked it. Perhaps I will.
He read the sign and laughed, like the stupid fuck he is and was and ever will be.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersMay 24, 2012 - 6:14pm
"is now my favorite simile ever."
It's so descriptive in an abstract sort of way. I can just see that god damn idiot now.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerMay 25, 2012 - 2:43am
It's so descriptive in an abstract sort of way."
I'm a genius! It's ok, you don't need to confirm it and furthermore any comments to the contrary will be ignored going forward.
Yes. Genius.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMay 26, 2012 - 8:54am
Here's what I do. I read. I read the types of stories I want to write. I love noir and those are the types of stories I want to write. I also read stories in other genres as well, because I enjoy them and there's a lot to be gained from them. Ive learned a whole of a lot more from reading fiction than i have trying to study it. What I've found for myself is the more I try to study and analyze the craft the more confused I become. I have a style that I like and I think I write pretty well in that style. I have a shelf of books on the craft of writing, but more often than not, I put them down after only getting about half way through. For me, Stephen King's On Writing is the best book on the craft. In it, he says 'in order to be a good writer you must read a lot and write a lot.' The quote may not be exact, but you get the idea. I live by this quote. I've also gained a lot from Elmore Leonard's Ten Rules of Writing.
I believe, when it comes to writing, just write. Find your style and voice, and whether or not you're giving enough show, on the body or submerging those I's is up to you. You're the writer. Write the story you want to read. When I over analyze, studying all the technical aspects, is when my voice, and my style doesn't become my own. It's like golf, the more you think about it, the more you'll make bogies and double double bogies.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.May 26, 2012 - 8:59am
Along those lines, when I went to write one of the (dead) novels I wrote, I thought, "What do I want to read in the next book I pick up?"
And I thought, "I want strippers, ghosts, and a priest."
And then I wrote a book called "A Priest, a Stripper, and a Ghost."
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMay 26, 2012 - 9:15am
And then I wrote a book called "A Priest, a Stripper, and a Ghost."
Haha! Nice. Excellent title. If I saw that in a bookstore, I'd pick it up.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.May 26, 2012 - 9:16am
It's a good book. It just needs another rewrite. I don't have it in me yet.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMay 26, 2012 - 9:20am
I don't have it in me yet.
- The priest or the stripper? It could go either way.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.May 26, 2012 - 9:22am
I don't have the ghost in me. I've had the priest and the stripper.
R.Moon
from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's DigestMay 26, 2012 - 9:25am
^ LOL!
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersMay 26, 2012 - 10:41am
"And I thought, "I want strippers, ghosts, and a priest."
That's how I planned my holiday weekend. Just have to find a priest.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerMay 27, 2012 - 4:18am
@Moon, good points. Good shit.
@Howie, I read it twice.
Matt Attack
from Richmond, Va. is reading As I Lay Dying, William FaulknerMay 27, 2012 - 4:53pm
Not the best book, but a good example of mixing show and tell.
There was death at its beginning as there would be death again at its end. Though whether it was some fleeting shadow of this that passed across the girl’s dreams and woke her on that least likely of mornings she would never know. All she knew, when she opened her eyes, was that the world was somehow altered.
The red glow of her alarm showed it was yet a halfhour till the time she had set it to wake her and she lay quite still, not lifting her head, trying to configure the change. It was dark but not as dark as it should be. Across the bedroom, she could clearly make out the dull glint of her riding trophies on cluttered shelves and above them the looming faces of rock stars she had once thought she should care about. She listened. The silence that filled the house was different too, expectant, like the pause between the intake of breath and the uttering of words. Soon there would be the muted roar of the furnace coming alive in the basement and the old farmhouse floorboards would start their ritual creaking complaint. She slipped out from the bedclothes and went to the window. There was snow. The first fall of winter.
Those aren't my pants, but I'd totally rock them.
@Howie I figured they'd be your style.
@Ren and AD- I just have to suspend myself. I actually got mad at my character the other day. Yeah, I'm fucking nuts. But actually mad because he made a choice I didn't agree with it. I think in a way it is similar to method acting. It's the only way I've been able to write.
Maybe it's the opposite here then, you have to take on your character's conflict and ride it out until it's not there anymore. (some people don't like seeing big character change in short stories (when in novels the character change is the whole point,) or they don't understand it or it's hard to pull off, but I think it's important. But that's a bigger discussion that can't be contained in parentheses.) There's that one past transgression that fucks up you're character from doing what they need to do and you have to let that make you feel weak and struggle to overcome that, and somehow put that all on the page without killing yourself in between.
Or maybe this is all too conceptual and pretentious.
Yeah - but I like conceptual and pretentious.
That doesn't mean it's not true. It's a good character exercise.
In the new article "Writing with Authority" by Jon Gingerich, he says:
Which is exaclty what I'd say the difference between showing and telling does for a reader. You give them the chance to discover for themself. Sometimes being told works better, but sometimes it's the interaction that a reader gets from being part of the story and getting to discover the 'something' that makes a story so fun.
Getting the right mix is key, but everyone is going to want a different amount.
When Clutch says, "I'm trying to tell a story after all, not show a story" I think people telling a ghost story around a fire in the woods. And it's a bit scary. Because if they showed you a ghost story (using words) around a dying fire in the middle of the depths of the forest while trees snap in the strangly cold breezes, a listener would shit their pants in fear.
My only issue is finding said mix. However, I REALLY just need to shit this first draft out and THEN go through all of this.
Regarding authority (and tangentially showing and telling, but not addressed,) I've discovered while changing the POV in this rewrite I'm doing is that a lot of the narrative voice and the framing of the particular story was to undermine my own authority, which ties into a lot of the characteristics of my other stories and stuff I routinely experiment with, but in effect I've set up an unreliable narrator to tell things in spots that even I bought as reliable. There's so many conveniences with that voice that to get the same effects to work in the right places in a different framework. . . it's just fucking exhausting.
Give me an example of how it's an unreliable narrator. I could have swore I read something about this the other day. If it is consistent with the framework (even in a tangent) and somehow relevant, I don't see how that's unreliable.
EDIT: Besides, I don't entirely buy unreliable narrator. Not one human alive is consistent with everything all the time. Even characters lie to readers.
I use language like "really, maybe, or," to suggest the opposite of what I say. There's habitual speech and future tense. The story itself accepts things inconcievably bizarre as truth, while including the narrator's own speculation to suggest complete other plots. Essentially, at least in the rewrite (I've taken out the main character entirely,) the entire story may or may not have happened. The point being that these are all masturbatory exericises and the story is probably unpublishable. It's in the workshop right now, and notes from editors I've sent it to suggest that it is "difficult" and "not for us," which I'm considering adding to my author bio.
I think of it as when my 3rd person narrator starts to get a little sassy.
Ha! How can third person get sassy? "Chuck walked down the hill, towards the ocean. Like a god damn idiot"
@Ren it sounds fragmentary and speculative. I would add those to your bio though.
I would read the hell out of that story.
LOL, I do what I can.
Write it right now. I command it.
"Chuck walked down the hill, towards the ocean. Like a god damn idiot"
Basically, yes. Sometimes I catch myself giving the 3rd person narrator attitude. And I have to bring it back in.
Also, I would read that story.
You could argue that you're working in first-person omniscient with an unmentioned narrator.
Shhhh... You're not supposed to mention the narrator, Ren.
Alright, I'm bored from packing and working on this draft of the novel. Here you needy fucks. Totally unedited.
Chuck walked down the hill, towards the ocean. Like a god damn idiot. Sarah sat amongst the dunes staring at the crash of wave, pushing closer to the shore and then retreating. He sat with a grunt next to her, his ass hanging out of his stupid hipster pants. His shitty non-prescription glasses pushing past the bridge of his nose. To anyone else the pair would appear at peace. He reached an arm around her and she shrugged it off.
"What is it?" He asked in his mousey beta male voice.
She sighed, turning away from him. "I just don't think we should see each other anymore."
His paleolithic eyes swelled with hot salt tears. "Why?"
"You're a hipster."
"I don't understand." He scratched his head, the fiery core that bled for Arcade Fire falling into the abyss that was his stomach. More tears, more waves.
"Exactly."
"What?" His voice trembled. He pulled his knees to his chest, turning away from her. The rip in his trendy two hundred dollar jeans widening.
"You like stupid shit. You enjoy PBR. You like wearing shirts that say beam me up hottie. You like alt. country. The worst part is, you live with your parents and off their trust fund. You work at Starbucks but have a degree. Get a fucking life." For four weeks she buried the simmering hate within her. It festered into a hot mass that exploded, demolishing the stupid man beside her.
His chin quivered against the lump in his throat. He turned to face her. "I love you."
"Exactly, we've only known each other for four weeks, what the fuck is wrong with you." She rose, dusting the sand off her backside. His dumb dopey eyes staring at her ass. She turned and noticed. She let out an angry breath and walked off.
That night, Chuck cut himself. Just to feel something.
Well if you were working in first person omniscient you'd really be missing all the fun if you didn't mention the narrator.
"Chuck walked down the hill, towards the ocean. Like a god damn idiot."
This one line, made me think of Salinger.
But if you mention him, he isn't unmentioned. Then he's just a character.
I worked on that for a full five minutes (edit: the story not the line)! Also Ren is right. Then you could be as sassy as you want.
Never read any of his stuff.
Basically any time anyone anywhere says 'god damn' it makes me think of Salinger.
Maybe I should read some of his stuff. Seriously that is the most pointless thing I have ever written. No wait, the flash about a sandwich was.
I like this line, too. You need to write your next story with this disapproving, angry voice. But "Chuck walked down the hill like a god damn idiot." is now my favorite simile ever.
Ha! I am glad you liked it. Perhaps I will.
He read the sign and laughed, like the stupid fuck he is and was and ever will be.
"is now my favorite simile ever."
It's so descriptive in an abstract sort of way. I can just see that god damn idiot now.
I'm a genius! It's ok, you don't need to confirm it and furthermore any comments to the contrary will be ignored going forward.
Yes. Genius.
Here's what I do. I read. I read the types of stories I want to write. I love noir and those are the types of stories I want to write. I also read stories in other genres as well, because I enjoy them and there's a lot to be gained from them. Ive learned a whole of a lot more from reading fiction than i have trying to study it. What I've found for myself is the more I try to study and analyze the craft the more confused I become. I have a style that I like and I think I write pretty well in that style. I have a shelf of books on the craft of writing, but more often than not, I put them down after only getting about half way through. For me, Stephen King's On Writing is the best book on the craft. In it, he says 'in order to be a good writer you must read a lot and write a lot.' The quote may not be exact, but you get the idea. I live by this quote. I've also gained a lot from Elmore Leonard's Ten Rules of Writing.
I believe, when it comes to writing, just write. Find your style and voice, and whether or not you're giving enough show, on the body or submerging those I's is up to you. You're the writer. Write the story you want to read. When I over analyze, studying all the technical aspects, is when my voice, and my style doesn't become my own. It's like golf, the more you think about it, the more you'll make bogies and double double bogies.
Along those lines, when I went to write one of the (dead) novels I wrote, I thought, "What do I want to read in the next book I pick up?"
And I thought, "I want strippers, ghosts, and a priest."
And then I wrote a book called "A Priest, a Stripper, and a Ghost."
It's a good book. It just needs another rewrite. I don't have it in me yet.
I don't have the ghost in me. I've had the priest and the stripper.
^ LOL!
"And I thought, "I want strippers, ghosts, and a priest."
That's how I planned my holiday weekend. Just have to find a priest.
@Moon, good points. Good shit.
@Howie, I read it twice.
Not the best book, but a good example of mixing show and tell.
There was death at its beginning as there would be death again at its end. Though whether it was some fleeting shadow of this that passed across the girl’s dreams and woke her on that least likely of mornings she would never know. All she knew, when she opened her eyes, was that the world was somehow altered.
The red glow of her alarm showed it was yet a halfhour till the time she had set it to wake her and she lay quite still, not lifting her head, trying to configure the change. It was dark but not as dark as it should be. Across the bedroom, she could clearly make out the dull glint of her riding trophies on cluttered shelves and above them the looming faces of rock stars she had once thought she should care about. She listened. The silence that filled the house was different too, expectant, like the pause between the intake of breath and the uttering of words. Soon there would be the muted roar of the furnace coming alive in the basement and the old farmhouse floorboards would start their ritual creaking complaint. She slipped out from the bedclothes and went to the window. There was snow. The first fall of winter.