Laramore Black's picture
Laramore Black from Joplin, Missouri is reading East of Eden, by John Steinbeck February 23, 2012 - 6:38pm

Haha, we could ask Kirk for that too, maybe. Or we can cheat it and give it free points for one worded reviews on our stories.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading Books February 23, 2012 - 6:40pm

Maybe Kirk or whoever could subtract points from those of us who have a ton. I have 190 points to use and I'd give up some for the cause.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters February 23, 2012 - 6:43pm

But, if we get to post the drafts without points, then what is the incentive to review them - that is my point.

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 6:44pm

I just messaged Kirk to see if he has some suggestions.  Let's give him some time to get interested.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading Books February 23, 2012 - 6:44pm

But, if we get to post the drafts without points, then what is the incentive to review them - that is my point.

- To learn. But, I understand what you're saying.

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 6:45pm

This part might not be easy, but I'm sure a solution exists.

Laramore Black's picture
Laramore Black from Joplin, Missouri is reading East of Eden, by John Steinbeck February 23, 2012 - 6:45pm

Somebody trustworthy would run it and rate the reviews on their own merit. 

Fritz's picture
Fritz February 23, 2012 - 6:46pm

Got the answer. We should ask the contestants to switch with another contestant. (based on some crazy numerical set up). Then the people posting wont have their own story and everybody knows it. So it will be blinded

Laramore Black's picture
Laramore Black from Joplin, Missouri is reading East of Eden, by John Steinbeck February 23, 2012 - 6:46pm

Ask BryanHowie to do it.

Nick Wilczynski's picture
Nick Wilczynski from Greensboro, NC is reading A Dance with Dragons by George R.R. Martin February 23, 2012 - 6:47pm

It's at least 5 stories.

Are you only getting 2 points avery?

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 6:47pm

@Fritz:  that could very well work.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters February 23, 2012 - 6:48pm

"Somebody trustworthy"

By this, I nkow you mean me, but I just don't know that I have the time to devote to that.

"To learn"

Oh, of course.  hang on, I have to go feed my unicorn.

Fritz's picture
Fritz February 23, 2012 - 6:49pm

It will work if there is a master of ceremony to coordinate switches and the contestants dont blab

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters February 23, 2012 - 6:49pm

"It's at least 5 stories.

Are you only getting 2 points avery?"

No, I meant if we post a rough and a final - two stories.  Know what i mean?

Fritz - I think that would work. 

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 6:49pm

@Laurance:  I've been asking myself for days why your name isn't on this contestant list and I keep coming up with only a blank, tear-streaked face.  So I'll save myself the office embarassment and ask you, instead:  You want in?  You should say yes, because "yes" is fun and "no" is not.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters February 23, 2012 - 6:49pm

" the contestants dont blab"

scouts honor?

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 6:51pm

Okay.  The contestants will all send their stories in to a trustworthy person.  That trustworthy person will then assign those stories at random among the contestants, who then post them in the workshop without knowing who they belong to.

How's this sounding?

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading Books February 23, 2012 - 6:51pm

Oh, of course.  hang on, I have to go feed my unicorn.

- Uh, okay...

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 6:53pm

So I wrote that and did not realize that Fritz Fucking Wolfe had already written it just before me.  Just so everybody knows, every good idea that Fritz has was mine first.  Sometimes it was my idea first several weeks after he had it. 

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading Books February 23, 2012 - 6:54pm

How's this sounding?

- Whatever works, but if someone's only going to judge/review based on popularity... then why are they here? 

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters February 23, 2012 - 6:54pm

"Okay.  The contestants will all send their stories in to a trustworthy person.  That trustworthy person will then assign those stories at random among the contestants, who then post them in the workshop without knowing who they belong to."

Perfect.

Also, scary.  Wait, one more thing, (like Columbo) then how do you manage the prompts?  Because we know who is battling who and what prompt they have, so it will be sort of easy to guess, right?

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters February 23, 2012 - 6:55pm

So we have to have someone PM us the prompts and not tell us who we are battling.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading Books February 23, 2012 - 6:56pm

Can you even attach a document in a PM? I don't think you can.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters February 23, 2012 - 6:59pm

"Can you even attach a document in a PM? I don't think you can."

Well, obviously we can email it if we need to. 

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 6:59pm

No, the document handling would have to be done via some kind of standard email.  The prompts could be PM then.

@Rian:  He does have a valid point.  We all know the review process is pretty unbiased.  We all give our all in the workshop.  But the polls would be a different story.  It would be pretty easy to introduce bias there.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading Books February 23, 2012 - 7:02pm

@Rian:  He does have a valid point.  We all know the review process is pretty unbiased.  We all give our all in the workshop.  But the polls would be a different story.  It would be pretty easy to introduce bias there.

- Okay. I see what you mean.

Well, obviously we can email it if we need to

- Uh, okay...

Fritz's picture
Fritz February 23, 2012 - 7:02pm

Didnt mean to open a can of worms. Just striving for fairness. What moon says is true in an ideal world. But ive yet to find ideal out in the world i live in (except for my wife - she is awesome). I dont know about prompts. Havent read the details.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters February 23, 2012 - 7:03pm

And then, after the polls, the winner can step out of the shadows and claim victory.  AT which point the next "bracket" can be revealed - sort of.  But all the assigning will be in secret up until the end.

I think this could work. 

But we need someone to co-ordinate this from the outside.

Laramore Black's picture
Laramore Black from Joplin, Missouri is reading East of Eden, by John Steinbeck February 23, 2012 - 7:03pm

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 7:04pm

Dude, you've got a pond in your backyard.  That is also ideal.  And me.  I am ideal. 

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading Books February 23, 2012 - 7:04pm

Didnt mean to open a can of worms. 

- No can of worms. I tend to question things. Some people answer with something useful, some don't. Hey, I'm in and however it works is fine with me. 

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 7:06pm

The brackets could always be public, unless I'm missing something.  It's just the prompts we would have to hide.  And the prompts would probably have to be included in the submissions so reviewers and voters would know the writers stuck to their assignment.

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 7:07pm

@Laurance:  You're on, motherfucker.

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters February 23, 2012 - 7:07pm

Utah - you are right, the bracket could be shown, but not the prompt.

FUN!

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 7:08pm

So it looks like we're getting this worked out.  Unless Kirk comes up with something easier, which I'm totally okay with.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading Books February 23, 2012 - 7:08pm

Who's the guy that wrote the Tucker Max like story? I want that guy to enter.

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 7:09pm

And me.  I am ideal.

Not meaning that you have me.  Because you don't.  That would be weird.

He doesn't have me.

Laramore Black's picture
Laramore Black from Joplin, Missouri is reading East of Eden, by John Steinbeck February 23, 2012 - 7:13pm

@Moon it was Andrew Logandale, and I don't think he's coming back.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading Books February 23, 2012 - 7:17pm

@Moon it was Andrew Logandale, and I don't think he's coming back.

- Damn... Oh well.

Richard's picture
Richard from St. Louis is reading Something Wicked This Way Comes AND Spent February 23, 2012 - 7:20pm

if we're posting up rough drafts then we can't ever be blind or double-blind. the only way we could do it would be to set it up as a random set of brackets, no seedings, and there would only be one story, doing a new story each week would be way too complicated. 

i think we just have to trust that people are honest. there isn't $500 at the end of this, only pride. 

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 7:18pm

@Richard:  why?

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 7:24pm

Richard, I do think we've engineered a way around all that.  Unless you've found some flaw in the logic.  In which case, preach brotha-man!

I am inclined to agree with you on the group-trust thing.  But I will address the concerns people have and see if we can find a reasonable resolution before dashing those concerns against the hard-scrabble of my apathy.

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts February 23, 2012 - 7:28pm

What's going on in here?

 

 

avery of the dead's picture
avery of the dead from Kentucky is reading Cipher Sisters February 23, 2012 - 7:29pm

Is this correct:

We create our brackets.

A Third party PMs prompts to everyone (obviously pairs get the same prompt)

Rough drafts are emailed to the 3rd party

3rd party emails them to a different contestant without any identifying markers on them.

Contestants post stories for review.

Repeat for final draft.

Poll is created byy 3rd party.

Winners go - aha!

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 7:34pm

@Renfield:  are you posting that because you want on the contestant list?

@Avery:  I think you pretty well have the process.  I'm going to think about it some more, and I'd like the rest of you to do the same.  Does this seem like something this contest needs?  That's the main question.  I definitely understand the concern for bias.  I'm just wondering if that is one that is truly weighty to our goals here.  And I'd really like it if some of our newer members would weigh in with their opinions here as well.

@Fritz:  thanks for bringing up an important issue with the contest.  Even if we don't wind up creating the double-blind system, it's at least something we've considered pretty thoroughly.

aliensoul77's picture
aliensoul77 from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall. February 23, 2012 - 7:34pm

I can be your outlier person, I don't care who wins so if you need help let me know. All that matters is the writing, not friendship. I learned this editing the anthology, trust me I learned this the hard way because I had to make a secret list of stories that will be cut if a publisher asks me to shorten it and I like the people on this list.

Richard's picture
Richard from St. Louis is reading Something Wicked This Way Comes AND Spent February 23, 2012 - 7:34pm

^ah. so the brackets won't have names, just #1 vs #8. and we'll repeat that every round? i say we just eliminate the rough draft part. we can all work on stories without a groupthink, yeah? we're going to war here, so wo/man up and write the damn story. we could cut the time by half, otherwise it's going to be 20 weeks for this competition. 

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 7:35pm

@Alien.  Thanks man.  We'll continue to bat this around for a few days.

Utah's picture
Moderator
Utah from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry February 23, 2012 - 7:38pm

@Everybody:  Richard has a good point as well.  What do you all think about this?  It would definitely cut the time in half.  I'd call it a week to write the story, then a week for the poll. 

It has its advantages.  Cuts the contest from 5 months to 10 weeks.  Makes us dig a bit deeper.  Less possibility of attrition due to bored waiting.  And makes us visit the desk with more frequency for the course of the contest.

I have to admit, I'm leaning toward this idea.  What do you guys think?

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts February 23, 2012 - 7:46pm

When does the whole process start and if each round is a couple weeks how long do you project this to take? edit: oh, you just answered that.

I'll have to rematch Matt in Thunderdome before this but if I make time for this ahead of time I'll jump in.