Fylh
from from from is reading is from is reading is reading is reading reading is readingNovember 22, 2011 - 2:53am
I am indeed not a fan. He represents most of the things I oppose in my reading. I find his poetry rushed, clumsy and, as in the example above, full of writerly self-mythologizing. His fiction strikes me as a weird mix of juvenile and "wise" in a phoney, forced, avuncular sense.
I'm pretty sure the myth of Bukowski is the only thing that tricks people into reading him at all.
Flaminia Ferina
from Umbria is reading stuffNovember 22, 2011 - 5:17am
Uncle Bukowski lol
Dave Hanson
from Connecticut is reading Incredibly pulpy fantasy and sci-fiNovember 22, 2011 - 6:53am
Without turning this into a Bukowski Versus the World Thread... I will say I did enjoy reading "Pleasures of the Damned" although I did not make it to anything else. He also speaks to my life experience more than, say, Yeats or Hemmingway.
@Phil... yes, the Myth definitely tricked me. But I didn't feel cheated by it.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersNovember 22, 2011 - 7:11am
Ugh. I'm on Team Phil with this one. " weird mix of juvenile and "wise" in a phoney, forced, avuncular sense."
-exactly.
Waterhouse
from Columbus is reading Bullet Park, John CheeverNovember 22, 2011 - 7:23am
I do no think a story needs to be the Platonic ideal of orthography and grammar; however, anything that pulls the reader out of the story and calls attention to the writer or the writing as opposed to story being told is annoying, irritating and pretentious. The only person I have read who can pull off odd punctuation, for example, is Hubert Selby Jr., but he is sparing and consistent and it does not pull one of of the story.
Personally, I think misspelling words for the sake of adding texture to a character is an end run around actual characterization, it is a meta-method of showing rather than a textual based telling. I remember one of my writing teachers in college a long, long time ago saying that "avant garde" is actually French for "quickly forgotten."
But hey, we all can write how we like, and if we find a publisher great. The question is, will we find an audience?
Renfield
from Hell is reading 20th Century GhostsNovember 22, 2011 - 7:24am
Meh. I disliked Bukowski for quite a few years, I think I might've actually thrown away Factotum, the only other time I've done that is with Raymond Carver's Cathedral which pissed me off a lot. Now I like Bukowski, love Carver. I like the juvenile.
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigNovember 23, 2011 - 11:14pm
Renfield disliked Bukowski before it was cool.
Should not have read the hipster thread before reading this one...
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 24, 2011 - 12:36pm
The Bukowski poem that made me a fan, from "You Get So Alone At Times That It Just Makes Sense"
THE MASTER PLAN
starving in a Philadelphia winter
trying to be a writer
I wrote and wrote and drank and drank and
drank
and then stopped writing and concentrated on
the drinking.
It was another
art-form.
If you can't have any luck with one thing you
try another.
of course, I had been practicing on the
drinking-form
since the age of
15.
and there was much competition
in that field
also.
it was a world full of drunks and writers and
drunk writers.
and so
I became a starving drunk instead of a starving
writer.
the best thing was the instant
result.
and I soon became the biggest and
best drunk in the neighborhood and
maybe the whole
city.
it sure as hell beat sitting around waiting for
those rejection slips from The New Yorker and The
Atlantic Monthly.
of course, I never really considered quitting the
writing game, I just wanted to give it a
ten year rest
figuring if I got famous too early
I wouldn't have anything left for the stretch run
like I have now, thank
you,
with the drinking still thrown
in.
Chester Pane
from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot DiazNovember 25, 2011 - 12:11pm
Good. Now I don't feel so self-conscious or hopeless about being an alcoholic.
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigNovember 27, 2011 - 12:30am
Ah yes, glamourizing the self destructive disease of addiction! Inspiring! Beautiful!
Wait...those aren't the words I was looking for.
At least the Bukowski portion of this thread isn't dripping with the irony of a bunch of really pretentious posts from people discussing how pretensious other authors are...wakka wakka.
Fylh
from from from is reading is from is reading is reading is reading reading is readingNovember 27, 2011 - 1:57am
@nkwilczy
I can't be sure who your post was addressed to, but I'll assume it's either me or aliensoul77, and further, I'll assume it's me so that I can write this response.
I'm not sure what to say to the simplistic explanation of how a dialectic works, so I'll move on from that to the main point:
Don't be passive-aggresive. It's not needed.
As for the rest of your post about grammar, I agree.
Nick Wilczynski
from Greensboro, NC is reading A Dance with Dragons by George R.R. MartinNovember 27, 2011 - 11:10am
I have been passive aggressive in the past, but I personally did not think that was an occassion where I was, I was just trying to say that this is not an "either or" choice, these absolutes exist so that you can take elements from both to get a better option.
If it did seem passive agressive I apologize, I still feel bad about the first bit on the thanksgiving spirit thread. I've been extremely frustrated on a number of levels lately and while I know that has caused me to be passive agressive here and in other places, I did not realize that this thread was one of those occassions.
aliensoul77
from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall.November 28, 2011 - 3:47am
I thought you were fine but whatever. I'm not passive aggressive, I say fuck anybody who doesn't agree with me because I know it all. BLAH! jk
birdkiller
August 29, 2014 - 12:34pm
If you like to hear yourself talk you will come off as pretentious in your writing .. Laurel hermanson .... Even the paper its writin on wouldn't start a fire ... BK
L.W. Flouisa
from Tennessee is reading More MurakamiAugust 29, 2014 - 1:28pm
Write alone in your room all you want. The biggest thing is just submitting the word so you can have another set of eyes on it. Even if that's an in person writers group.
And yes I have no shame ignoring random advice from nobodies on twitter. Most of the time you have no idea if they are even writers. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.
madsmaddox
from Berkshire is reading FatedAugust 30, 2014 - 1:18am
Perception is a funny thing but fresh eyes can help with development and growth, and also sometimes annoy the hell out of you. Good luck with finding that balance.
I am indeed not a fan. He represents most of the things I oppose in my reading. I find his poetry rushed, clumsy and, as in the example above, full of writerly self-mythologizing. His fiction strikes me as a weird mix of juvenile and "wise" in a phoney, forced, avuncular sense.
I'm pretty sure the myth of Bukowski is the only thing that tricks people into reading him at all.
Uncle Bukowski lol
Without turning this into a Bukowski Versus the World Thread... I will say I did enjoy reading "Pleasures of the Damned" although I did not make it to anything else. He also speaks to my life experience more than, say, Yeats or Hemmingway.
@Phil... yes, the Myth definitely tricked me. But I didn't feel cheated by it.
Ugh. I'm on Team Phil with this one. " weird mix of juvenile and "wise" in a phoney, forced, avuncular sense."
-exactly.
I do no think a story needs to be the Platonic ideal of orthography and grammar; however, anything that pulls the reader out of the story and calls attention to the writer or the writing as opposed to story being told is annoying, irritating and pretentious. The only person I have read who can pull off odd punctuation, for example, is Hubert Selby Jr., but he is sparing and consistent and it does not pull one of of the story.
Personally, I think misspelling words for the sake of adding texture to a character is an end run around actual characterization, it is a meta-method of showing rather than a textual based telling. I remember one of my writing teachers in college a long, long time ago saying that "avant garde" is actually French for "quickly forgotten."
But hey, we all can write how we like, and if we find a publisher great. The question is, will we find an audience?
Meh. I disliked Bukowski for quite a few years, I think I might've actually thrown away Factotum, the only other time I've done that is with Raymond Carver's Cathedral which pissed me off a lot. Now I like Bukowski, love Carver. I like the juvenile.
Renfield disliked Bukowski before it was cool.
Should not have read the hipster thread before reading this one...
The Bukowski poem that made me a fan, from "You Get So Alone At Times That It Just Makes Sense"
THE MASTER PLAN
starving in a Philadelphia winter
trying to be a writer
I wrote and wrote and drank and drank and
drank
and then stopped writing and concentrated on
the drinking.
It was another
art-form.
If you can't have any luck with one thing you
try another.
of course, I had been practicing on the
drinking-form
since the age of
15.
and there was much competition
in that field
also.
it was a world full of drunks and writers and
drunk writers.
and so
I became a starving drunk instead of a starving
writer.
the best thing was the instant
result.
and I soon became the biggest and
best drunk in the neighborhood and
maybe the whole
city.
it sure as hell beat sitting around waiting for
those rejection slips from The New Yorker and The
Atlantic Monthly.
of course, I never really considered quitting the
writing game, I just wanted to give it a
ten year rest
figuring if I got famous too early
I wouldn't have anything left for the stretch run
like I have now, thank
you,
with the drinking still thrown
in.
Good. Now I don't feel so self-conscious or hopeless about being an alcoholic.
Ah yes, glamourizing the self destructive disease of addiction! Inspiring! Beautiful!
Wait...those aren't the words I was looking for.
At least the Bukowski portion of this thread isn't dripping with the irony of a bunch of really pretentious posts from people discussing how pretensious other authors are...wakka wakka.
@nkwilczy
I can't be sure who your post was addressed to, but I'll assume it's either me or aliensoul77, and further, I'll assume it's me so that I can write this response.
I'm not sure what to say to the simplistic explanation of how a dialectic works, so I'll move on from that to the main point:
Don't be passive-aggresive. It's not needed.
As for the rest of your post about grammar, I agree.
I have been passive aggressive in the past, but I personally did not think that was an occassion where I was, I was just trying to say that this is not an "either or" choice, these absolutes exist so that you can take elements from both to get a better option.
If it did seem passive agressive I apologize, I still feel bad about the first bit on the thanksgiving spirit thread. I've been extremely frustrated on a number of levels lately and while I know that has caused me to be passive agressive here and in other places, I did not realize that this thread was one of those occassions.
I thought you were fine but whatever. I'm not passive aggressive, I say fuck anybody who doesn't agree with me because I know it all. BLAH! jk
If you like to hear yourself talk you will come off as pretentious in your writing .. Laurel hermanson .... Even the paper its writin on wouldn't start a fire ... BK
Write alone in your room all you want. The biggest thing is just submitting the word so you can have another set of eyes on it. Even if that's an in person writers group.
And yes I have no shame ignoring random advice from nobodies on twitter. Most of the time you have no idea if they are even writers. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.
Perception is a funny thing but fresh eyes can help with development and growth, and also sometimes annoy the hell out of you. Good luck with finding that balance.