Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 6, 2012 - 3:06pm
@andrea:
"What are some ways you personally would encourage silent/vocal revolts against not just women's bodies and languages, but the bodies and languages of all the marginalized, especially in a society that is so driven by momentum and materialism?"
i think they happen all the time, every minute of every day and night. it's our job to recognize them when we see and hear them, for one thing, like that 70 year old painter woman did in me...you know? i know you DO know. but the idea is to quit treating damaged children and teens like they are mini criminals and nutbags and revise our relationships and energies.
but too, i guess i believe that artistic expression and practice is a healing strategy, a self expression strategy, a sanity path, a helpful process to avoid psychosis, a radical politics, a vital social force. so that's why i gave Dora in the novel that tiny "success" -- to emphasize artistic practice as a path for all kinds of things.
particularly now, when arts in education is at an all-time low, and "art" is considered a matter of commodity and commerce (bleh) in so many ways, her story is a reminder that art is material, alive, capable of resisting the cultural narratives that try to subsume it.
there's art and then there's art, you know? room for all of it but i happen to stand in a certain...camp or tribe...which sometimes puts me at odds with people i hold dear or am in a writing group with! ha...
love lidia
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 6, 2012 - 3:08pm
@wickedvoodoo:
"Freud's mistakes have been costly, but they have also been valuable - within the resurgence of femininst theory and within the advancements of social psychology there have been people attempting to rebuild Freuds ideas from the ground up and removing the old biases."
...that's why i didn't kill him off. ha. in fact, a little bit of "homage" is going on in the story...after all, he could be someone's grandpa.
love lidia
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 6, 2012 - 3:12pm
@Emily:
I'm going to tell Chelsea you said that in the hopes that she'll start doing it.
The Gemini stuff is between me and Suzy Vitello...
I really DID love a girl named Obsidian...still do.
as for the differences between the source material and my novel, yeah, there are differences, but not many! ha...most of those things happened, including freud's blow addiction...and his attraction to jung...dora's father really did send her to freud, and dora's father really was banging mr. k's wife, and mr. k. really did molest dora...dora really lost her voice, coughed and fainted...etc...so i'm not sure which parts you mean...though to my knowledge, no one ever engorged his wang...?
love lidia
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 6, 2012 - 3:17pm
@bryanhowie:
well, i started the first draft in period, but i kept waking up at night with Dora's voice haunting me...really. i couldn't get it out of my head. too, i guess i wanted to write a story that the young men and women i work with would recognize (i work at a community college) becuase i wanted to sing their praised and honor them...and another reason is that this "OLD story" doesn't seem to have changed much to me. i listen to the young humans around me and i remember my own youth and we are facing some of the same silencing and punishing forces as the Ida did...just in different forms. so i wanted to shine a light on that idea too -- just how far have we come? my son's best friend is on ridilin, all the women i know my age are on anti-depressents or heavy drinkers, the gay men i know are still under attack...our sexualities still seem under seige. so i decided to unlock that source story and relocate it in our present tense.
i'm doing that with two more novels too, by the way.
because also, it's fun.
love lidia
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 6, 2012 - 3:25pm
As the saying goes: At a time like this, remember that there has always been a time like this.
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 6, 2012 - 4:51pm
Precisely,
underpurplemoon
from PDX
November 6, 2012 - 7:12pm
THANK YOU (and any other humans) who read Dora. i'm always shocked people read what i write. still.
I didn't really like the book itself, but it made me think and I did look up the original on the Internet. Your messages to the others were greatly appreciated. I can somewhat relate, because sometimes people tell me that I'm wrong, but in a way, I'm not going against my own nature anymore. Yeah, I like your version of the story better, because it shows even the most respected people make mistakes and are human too. Thank you for writing.
Also, I'm glad that you added Obsidian into the mix. She's not a part of the original, right?
wickedvoodoo
from Mansfield, England is reading stuff.November 6, 2012 - 7:35pm
Great answers. I will have to ponder a few more questions/discussion points.
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 6, 2012 - 8:14pm
@roaringjen:
No, but Ida Bauer was attracted to women. Um,
Sorry you disliked the book. Never quite sure how
To respond to that. Happy reading elsewhere?
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigNovember 7, 2012 - 11:14am
So, Lidia--you said that (to our knowledge, haha) no one ever engorged the real Frued's wang...what led you to that idea for the climax?
And...did you start out intending to make this a farce, or did you surprise yourself with it? I love the visuals of this fabulous group of tranvestites, bois, artsy teens, etc. riding around in an expensive car high on the thrills they were creating.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 7, 2012 - 11:39am
I was a little thrown off by the project mayhem stuff in the story. I love the rebellion, but some of the pranks seemed unrealistic to me (but I have no doubt that they could be real - ie. the guy with the samurai sword in Seattle years ago). No jail time/many repercussions for their pranks is what made me feel like it wasn't real. I have a problem in my writing where I want things to feel real world. Were these kind of true stories? Did you feel like they were realistic?
(PS. Loved Dora, but Chronology of Water may be the best memoir ever written.)
.
November 7, 2012 - 12:15pm
I noticed some things that pertain to Chronology Of Water. (The mother's attempted suicide, etc.)
Did these things surface into the story organically or did you inject them on purpose?
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 7, 2012 - 12:25pm
@sparrowstark:
i definitely wanted to "invade" the old old form (like ben johnson / shakespeare / moliere old) of FARCE and fill it up with girl teen drama. here is the definition of FARCE:
In theatre, a farce is a comedy which aims at entertaining the audience by means of unlikely, extravagant, and improbable situations, disguise and mistaken identity, verbal humor of varying degrees of sophistication, which may include word play, and a fast-paced plot whose speed usually increases, culminating in an ending which often involves an elaborate chase scene. Farces are often highly incomprehensible plot-wise (due to the large number of plot twists and random events that often occur), but viewers are encouraged not to try to follow the plot in order to avoid becoming confused and overwhelmed. Farce is also characterized by physical humor, the use of deliberate absurdity or nonsense, and broadly stylized performances. Farces have been written for the stage and film.
Japan has a centuries-old tradition of farce plays called Kyōgen. These plays are performed as comic relief during the long, serious Noh plays.
the entire FORMAL project of Dora: A Headcase involved "breaking in" to old traditional forms (freud's primary text, farce, the so-called novel) and staging a "break out."
the wang scene is me reimagining the oedipal plot through the lens of a woman's body. castration is already part of freud's model (as in fear of). i just brought it to its logical imagery were a girl story to have as much weight as a boy's.
love lidia
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 7, 2012 - 12:26pm
@jacks:
both. i think they are paradigmatic themes in the lives of girls and boys.
love lidia
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 7, 2012 - 12:29pm
@bryanhowie:
bingo. because this novel is not written via Realism. right? it's written in the classical form of farce (see above definition).
too, characters are never people, much as we wish they were, and novels are never the "real world," even if you are like me and wish you could live inside them instead of the real world.
characters and novels are constructs, even in Realism.
so, that said, i followed the rules of farce quite precisely.
chuck and i have been laughing at how in Fight Club the hijinks are also unrealistic but everyone loves them, but in Dora some readers are like, what? too much mayhem! ha...
and for the record, not only have I, the Lidia, done several of these things in my youth, but several other women i know have, and still do. i'm kinda wondering if maybe people are in the dark about what it is that girls and young women think, feel, and do...maybe it's time we tell people?
that was a dual aim in both COW and Dora...
love lidia
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigNovember 7, 2012 - 12:30pm
the wang scene is me reimagining the oedipal plot through the lens of a woman's body. castration is already part of freud's model (as in fear of). i just brought it to its logical imagery were a girl story to have as much weight as a boy's.
Ahhhh. I am sort of embarrassed this didn't occur to me.
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 7, 2012 - 12:30pm
...before someone blasts me, YES, i'm sayng there's a gender bias there, but that DOES NOT MEAN i think i'm chuck. trust me. ha.
love lidia
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 7, 2012 - 12:46pm
The fight club ones were done by characters that are kind of horrible, so they don't seem as far fetched. Dora is rebellious but sweet. She's not a bad person.
I think it has less to do about gender/sex as it has to do with the psychology of the characters in Dora and Fight Club. I think that's part of the difference between Tyler Durden and Dora. One's a sociopath, the other is troubled. One is redeemable.
Something like that. But it could very well be gender-bias.
drea
from Rural Alberta, Canada is reading between the linesNovember 7, 2012 - 12:46pm
ha ha, Renee!
Question for you other readers, who were your favorite supporting characters in the book?
I am absolutely in love with Marlene, and I think most kids/real life "Ida/Dora's" who "make it," actually have their own versions of a Marlene; an adult who doesn't demean or speak down to these people while opening up the possibility of a better life on the other side of fucked up, with precious things like art, music, literature, sports, basket weaving, horse taming... whatever. (My own Marlene is an aging Jewish hippy whom I now refer to as "dad-like-figure.") The similarities between the relationships (minus all the trappings of drag and high femme) are too striking to be coincidental. We should all be like Marlene.
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigNovember 7, 2012 - 12:48pm
Yes. A Marlene, or if we are very lucky, several Marlenes.
drea
from Rural Alberta, Canada is reading between the linesNovember 7, 2012 - 12:48pm
And Bryanhowie, I'm going to jump in and say, NO, Dora is not troubled. She's been fucked with.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 7, 2012 - 1:07pm
I meant 'troubled' in that way.
drea
from Rural Alberta, Canada is reading between the linesNovember 7, 2012 - 1:09pm
Right, then. As you were.
Who was your favorite supporting character, Bryan? Did you have one? Did you love the scene where Dora and Obsidian make out under the clothes rack in Nordstroms?
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 7, 2012 - 1:20pm
My favorite character in the book was probably Freud. He's a bumbling idiot who doesn't know how full of shit he is half the time, but he has one moment where he redeems himself - he has a line he doesn't want to cross. He wants to exploit his patients, but not in a Hollywood style way. Of course, money talks and he falters, but he has that one moment where he says no.
He's just so pathetic, I can't help but be in the underdog-fool's corner.
.
November 7, 2012 - 2:09pm
I have to agree with Howie, Freud feels like an anti-hero of his own universe.
underpurplemoon
from PDX
November 7, 2012 - 2:37pm
Sorry you disliked the book. Never quite sure how
To respond to that. Happy reading elsewhere?
I read the book because from what I've heard so far seemed interesting. What motivated me to buy the book was because you had an interesting concept. I'm just a minority here, so you shouldn't worry. The book club I was in years ago had a similar feel...where a person didn't like the book. I thought about not responding to this discussion, but you deserve to know that even though I didn't like this particular book, the entire experience was quite interesting. Made me a stronger reader and writer. Again, thank you.
drea
from Rural Alberta, Canada is reading between the linesNovember 7, 2012 - 4:03pm
I also felt an genuine pity towards Siggy. He gets his druthers, though and when he is caught out in Dora's room (and HE is the one who is misunderstood; OH, SNAP!) Lovely turn of la table, n'est pas?
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigNovember 7, 2012 - 5:36pm
Sigh. Telling someone they deserve to know you didn't like their work is really self important. Some of the LR book club months have the author, and some don't. It takes on a different meaning when you tell the author you didn't like the book. Especially if you can't or won't articulate why. In fact, if this were a book club month without the author, I doubt anyone would have responded to you at all since "I sure didn't like it!" doesn't actually contribute to the discussion.
So you were rude AND you contributed nothing to the conversation. No, I'm pretty sure Lidia didn't deserve that.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 7, 2012 - 5:57pm
Well said, Sparrow.
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 7, 2012 - 7:25pm
for the record, i have a soft spot for siggy too. i don't know if it "worked," but a narrative aim i had while deconstructing a very patriarchal theme and concept was to NOT demonize men or a man. he does suffer, but we all suffer, and dora / ida certainly suffered at the hands of men who were supposed to take care of her and help her along the way...but i took great pains to NOT crucify him (well ok i crucified his wang a bit but hey. chris burden anyone?)...reading freud really did change my thinking pretty radically when i was 25. reading jung changed my thinking forever, too...i actually think all writers should read freud and jung, for realz.
the REAL freud wasn't doddering, however, he did have a bugar sugar chapter to his life that was pretty intense, and he did get caught up in his own theories in ways that probably created their own blindnesses along with all that insight...and most modern readers agree he got a LOT wrong about the psyches and bodies of women and glbt folks...
but i have a soft spot for him too. he's not evil. he's just sometimes wrong and blind, like we all are; the problematic thing is that culture treats some people as legitimate and knowledgeable and others like they are "sick." freud's REAL discourse became a kind of culture truth we are still grappling with.
i wanted to show how Dora is not "sick." she's self expressing and actualizing all over hell and back.
love lidia
(by the way, it's ok when people don't like my books. lots and lots of people are going to not like my books. i'm 50. i can take it. mostly. ha. i read tons of books i don't like but i learn from them anyway...)
wickedvoodoo
from Mansfield, England is reading stuff.November 8, 2012 - 2:20am
(edited my long ramble down, took out the waffle and kept the coherent bits.)
I think Lidia's soft spot for the Sig shows. If she had really wanted to vilify him, the fictional version could have been so much more malevolent. After seeing all the promo for the book, I half expected her to work him over a little more. Glad she did it the 'right' way though.
Also - Dora: a Headcase, as a piece of art, explores the fluid nature of sexuality, an idea, I feel, with a lot of merit to it.
The pranks and stunts that Dora and her friends get up to - that isn't violence and mayhem, that is teenagers enjoying themselves. If they didn't have these outlets - well some real mayhem might happen, and the adults in Dora's world wouldn't know what hit them.
wickedvoodoo
from Mansfield, England is reading stuff.November 7, 2012 - 9:35pm
Also, I have this on my bookshelf, waiting to be read sometime. Check out the synopsis on the Amazon page. I read Gina's short story collection and really enjoyed it, so I picked this up a little while ago. Must get around to actually reading it.
Anyone that might have already read it - does it make for an interesting compare/contrast job with Dora?
underpurplemoon
from PDX
November 7, 2012 - 11:06pm
So you were rude AND you contributed nothing to the conversation. No, I'm pretty sure Lidia didn't deserve that.
Lidia, I would like to apologize for wording my dislike in an upsetting way. I guess I am still learning on how to become a better critic. Again, my apologies.
but i have a soft spot for him too. he's not evil. he's just sometimes wrong and blind, like we all are; the problematic thing is that culture treats some people as legitimate and knowledgeable and others like they are "sick." freud's REAL discourse became a kind of culture truth we are still grappling with.
i wanted to show how Dora is not "sick." she's self expressing and actualizing all over hell and back.
This is what I thought too, but somehow words escape me because certain concepts in the book were sort of a culture shock to me. There's been a blockage in my throat, and perhaps the book left me speechless. I pushed through and couldn't put the book down until I was finished. I am reminded of a student I once tutored, who didn't like the book I chose for him because it had a lot of swear words in it. I never knew how to respond to that.
Perhaps I haven't made myself clear because writing and speaking up my mind have been always difficult tasks. I'm powering through as I write this because it's a huge leap for me. The primary reason I've decided to join in this particular book club discussion was to learn to become a stronger writer somehow, be inspired, and I wasn't sure how this would work--but I'm glad I did, because it opened up a lot of wounds for me.
I guess I can understand the genius in how you interweave the original and put your own twist into it. In that sense, I was amazed. I guess I didn't give you the full story, not a very good critic in that sense. It wasn't my usual fluff that I usually read, and in a way, the story woke me up. Pushing through insecurities. Thank you for helping me push through. I was rooting for Ida the entire way. I didn't have a crush on Obsidian, but I was wanting a better life for her. I guess I wanted fluff, but that's what I shouldn't have looked for.
(The synopsis was a little confusing, or maybe it was just me, but I thought some of the people there were imaginary according to the book cover. And then I realized that they were real characters in the book.)
Courtney
from the Midwest is reading Monkey: A Journey to the West and a thousand college textbooksNovember 8, 2012 - 1:33am
Lidia,
I'm majoring in human sexuality and the idea of "sexuality under siege" caught my attention. This isn't a question about the book, but I'm curious if you have any thoughts to share about the way women are taught about sex.
An article for one of my papers claimed that because abstinence-only education reinforces the idea that women can only say "no" and there are no opportunities in which they'd want to say "yes," we've effectively castrated women socially and sexually and turned them into perpetual victims, even when it's consensual, because there's less stigma on men for promiscuous sex but not for women.
So, my question: do you think that (societal and institutional) education factors into the idea of "sexuality under seige" that you mentioned?
voodoo_em
from England is reading All the books by Ira LevinNovember 8, 2012 - 2:46am
Lidia,
Please know that when I asked about the Gemini stuff it was because I thought it referred to Dora and a Gemini-twin in the story, so I was trying to figure out who it was. So...um sorry about that.
Emily xo
My favorite supporting character was probably also Freud because, toward the end he's so comical and vulnerable that you just kind of root for him too. Having said that though I found all the main supporting characters (Dora's gang) to be enchanting and quirky.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 8, 2012 - 6:35am
If we have Lidia popping in to answer questions, we should really consider Chronology of Water as a book club selection. Not only is it the best memoir ever written, it's also the most uniquely put together. I have made friends read this book, and pretty soon I'll run into another friend who I'll recommend it to - and they'll have been recommended by the friend of a friend of a friend who I originally told. The book spreads like fire.
Rambling.... Point is. Chronology is life changing.
voodoo_em
from England is reading All the books by Ira LevinNovember 8, 2012 - 6:38am
^ totally agree. I love that book, it's brutal honesty is beautiful.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 8, 2012 - 6:39am
Back to Dora question: When you wrote Dora, were you thinking of it as a book about gender/sex? Since Chuck and Fight Club have been brought up, was Fight Club an inspiration or something that kept you from putting a few tricks in that you had originally wanted? I guess I'm wondering... how did Fight Club affect Dora?
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 8, 2012 - 10:34am
@roaringjen:
hey! no worries! we read to change. it's my personal belief that books should happen to you as a reader. the whole "like" or "didn't like" thing .... well, taste is taste, right? i read ALL OVER THE MAP. trust me. ha....you should see my bedside pile. it's thrillers and true crime and HIGH END literature and grapic novels and poetry and shitty commercial pulp and prize-winning laureats. thank you for hanging in there with Dora.
just read.
right?
love lidia
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 8, 2012 - 10:35am
@courtney:
So, my question: do you think that (societal and institutional) education factors into the idea of "sexuality under seige" that you mentioned?
YES! oh yes. in fact i meant Dora to be a kind of sexuality and psyche girl warrior in exactly those terms.
love lidia
(also my next book has another one of those -- i have a trilogy meant to invent new "girl warrior myths..."
love lidia
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 8, 2012 - 10:38am
@bryanhowie:
well chuck was by far my best reader for this work (with the exception of monica drake, who is a fellow girl nerd, and also obsessed with ida/freud)...so there's THAT. the wang scene simply would not have come together without his help.
but too, i actually believe Dora and Fight Club are in conversation with one another -- it's just something private between Chuck and I so it doesn't matter if anyone else "sees" it...
the conversation the novels have with one another has to do with constructions of masculinity and constructions of femininity and how gay and bisexual identity fit or don't fit within those lame-ass constructions.
because c and i don't quite fit into the constructions our culture handed us as people, so we make characters that "mirror" that struggle.
love lidia
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 8, 2012 - 10:41am
you guys are awesome. thank you so much for reading Dora and also for the great questions. no one asked this but i'm on a roll...ha...
i think COW and Dora are actually quite similar (ssshhhh).
in COW i wrote the story of a girl who has to resucitate herself -- bring herself back to life after nearly drowning within the constructs meant to grow her -- family, education, society.
in Dora i wrote the story of a girl who has to go steal her own voice and story back from family, doctor, society.
see?
love lidia
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 8, 2012 - 10:41am
That makes perfect sense. As a conversation between the two about gender roles adn such, do you think you would have written Dora the same if you had not read Fight Club?
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigNovember 8, 2012 - 10:53am
Oh that's a great question, Howie. This is making me want to re-read Dora and re-read Fight Club and see if my head explodes. I like that you say they are "in conversation" with each other because two things happened for me with Fight Club--I got mad that people said it was for men, because I related to it and I liked it, AND I thought "Why ISN'T there a female version? We CAN be just as badass, lost, fucked up, etc etc." And THEN Lidia came along and cleared that all up.
And--I do see the similarities between COW and Dora. I love what you say about "creating new girl myths". I have an almost 3yr old girl that loves dinosaurs and Iron Man as much as she loves princesses and pink, and I feel like we owe it to kids like her (especially because I was a kid like her!) to create a world where that isn't something to be surprised about and there is no huge pressure to conform to a certain idea or aspect of femininity.
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 8, 2012 - 11:13am
@bryanhowie:
i would have written Dora the same if i had not read Fight Club, but the book would not have been the same without Chuck's help in writing group. True confession: the viagra spiking? the wang scene? he was the only person in my writing group besides chelsea who said oh hell yes. now push it further.
i got more blow-back about smiley -- they were worried for me -- but i was absolutely positively convinced that smiley had to stay in. he's key. and beautiful. also, i consulted my dear dead friend ken kesey, and he said hell yes. smiley (special olympics) is a little bit of a nod to cuckoo's nest -- the "so called" deaf mute indian. another "ssshhhhh."
love lidia
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigNovember 8, 2012 - 11:17am
I thought Smiley was the perfect character for the role he played, and the book wouldn't have been the same without someone playing that role! I thought it might be a nod to Cuckoo's Nest.
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 8, 2012 - 11:23am
@sparrowstark:
bless you. thank you for noticing that. ken was a really close friend of mine. ahem. i actually think it's pretty damn cosmic that i met ken and chuck and we are friends in ONE lifetime. really. they would have liked each other. ken was my first writing mentor.
love lidia
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.November 8, 2012 - 11:43am
I, too, was really happy with Smiley. He was great. Just the absurdity, bound in harsh reality (handicapped), that made a over-the-top scene become impossible not to love. For me, he felt like the Trickster Buddha - with a riddle that you can't answer and some secret to the universe that he wants you to understand but can't tell you because the answer is the answer that can't be spoken. He was very zen to me.
Lidia Yuknavitch
from Portlandia is reading Zipper Mouth by Laurie WeeksNovember 8, 2012 - 11:44am
@bryanhowie: YES. that EXACTLY. kesey always said the chief was a trickster figure...
love lidia
Pete
from Detroit is reading Red DragonNovember 10, 2012 - 1:12pm
I know I picked this book for the discussion, and it shows bad form, but previous engagements were stopping me from starting this until - today. I'm so stoked to get to it though, especially with Lidia being such a kick ass person.
@andrea:
"What are some ways you personally would encourage silent/vocal revolts against not just women's bodies and languages, but the bodies and languages of all the marginalized, especially in a society that is so driven by momentum and materialism?"
i think they happen all the time, every minute of every day and night. it's our job to recognize them when we see and hear them, for one thing, like that 70 year old painter woman did in me...you know? i know you DO know. but the idea is to quit treating damaged children and teens like they are mini criminals and nutbags and revise our relationships and energies.
but too, i guess i believe that artistic expression and practice is a healing strategy, a self expression strategy, a sanity path, a helpful process to avoid psychosis, a radical politics, a vital social force. so that's why i gave Dora in the novel that tiny "success" -- to emphasize artistic practice as a path for all kinds of things.
particularly now, when arts in education is at an all-time low, and "art" is considered a matter of commodity and commerce (bleh) in so many ways, her story is a reminder that art is material, alive, capable of resisting the cultural narratives that try to subsume it.
there's art and then there's art, you know? room for all of it but i happen to stand in a certain...camp or tribe...which sometimes puts me at odds with people i hold dear or am in a writing group with! ha...
love lidia
@wickedvoodoo:
"Freud's mistakes have been costly, but they have also been valuable - within the resurgence of femininst theory and within the advancements of social psychology there have been people attempting to rebuild Freuds ideas from the ground up and removing the old biases."
...that's why i didn't kill him off. ha. in fact, a little bit of "homage" is going on in the story...after all, he could be someone's grandpa.
love lidia
@Emily:
I'm going to tell Chelsea you said that in the hopes that she'll start doing it.
The Gemini stuff is between me and Suzy Vitello...
I really DID love a girl named Obsidian...still do.
as for the differences between the source material and my novel, yeah, there are differences, but not many! ha...most of those things happened, including freud's blow addiction...and his attraction to jung...dora's father really did send her to freud, and dora's father really was banging mr. k's wife, and mr. k. really did molest dora...dora really lost her voice, coughed and fainted...etc...so i'm not sure which parts you mean...though to my knowledge, no one ever engorged his wang...?
love lidia
@bryanhowie:
well, i started the first draft in period, but i kept waking up at night with Dora's voice haunting me...really. i couldn't get it out of my head. too, i guess i wanted to write a story that the young men and women i work with would recognize (i work at a community college) becuase i wanted to sing their praised and honor them...and another reason is that this "OLD story" doesn't seem to have changed much to me. i listen to the young humans around me and i remember my own youth and we are facing some of the same silencing and punishing forces as the Ida did...just in different forms. so i wanted to shine a light on that idea too -- just how far have we come? my son's best friend is on ridilin, all the women i know my age are on anti-depressents or heavy drinkers, the gay men i know are still under attack...our sexualities still seem under seige. so i decided to unlock that source story and relocate it in our present tense.
i'm doing that with two more novels too, by the way.
because also, it's fun.
love lidia
As the saying goes: At a time like this, remember that there has always been a time like this.
Precisely,
I didn't really like the book itself, but it made me think and I did look up the original on the Internet. Your messages to the others were greatly appreciated. I can somewhat relate, because sometimes people tell me that I'm wrong, but in a way, I'm not going against my own nature anymore. Yeah, I like your version of the story better, because it shows even the most respected people make mistakes and are human too. Thank you for writing.
Also, I'm glad that you added Obsidian into the mix. She's not a part of the original, right?
Great answers. I will have to ponder a few more questions/discussion points.
@roaringjen:
No, but Ida Bauer was attracted to women. Um,
Sorry you disliked the book. Never quite sure how
To respond to that. Happy reading elsewhere?
So, Lidia--you said that (to our knowledge, haha) no one ever engorged the real Frued's wang...what led you to that idea for the climax?
And...did you start out intending to make this a farce, or did you surprise yourself with it? I love the visuals of this fabulous group of tranvestites, bois, artsy teens, etc. riding around in an expensive car high on the thrills they were creating.
I was a little thrown off by the project mayhem stuff in the story. I love the rebellion, but some of the pranks seemed unrealistic to me (but I have no doubt that they could be real - ie. the guy with the samurai sword in Seattle years ago). No jail time/many repercussions for their pranks is what made me feel like it wasn't real. I have a problem in my writing where I want things to feel real world. Were these kind of true stories? Did you feel like they were realistic?
(PS. Loved Dora, but Chronology of Water may be the best memoir ever written.)
I noticed some things that pertain to Chronology Of Water. (The mother's attempted suicide, etc.)
Did these things surface into the story organically or did you inject them on purpose?
@sparrowstark:
i definitely wanted to "invade" the old old form (like ben johnson / shakespeare / moliere old) of FARCE and fill it up with girl teen drama. here is the definition of FARCE:
In theatre, a farce is a comedy which aims at entertaining the audience by means of unlikely, extravagant, and improbable situations, disguise and mistaken identity, verbal humor of varying degrees of sophistication, which may include word play, and a fast-paced plot whose speed usually increases, culminating in an ending which often involves an elaborate chase scene. Farces are often highly incomprehensible plot-wise (due to the large number of plot twists and random events that often occur), but viewers are encouraged not to try to follow the plot in order to avoid becoming confused and overwhelmed. Farce is also characterized by physical humor, the use of deliberate absurdity or nonsense, and broadly stylized performances. Farces have been written for the stage and film.
Japan has a centuries-old tradition of farce plays called Kyōgen. These plays are performed as comic relief during the long, serious Noh plays.
the entire FORMAL project of Dora: A Headcase involved "breaking in" to old traditional forms (freud's primary text, farce, the so-called novel) and staging a "break out."
the wang scene is me reimagining the oedipal plot through the lens of a woman's body. castration is already part of freud's model (as in fear of). i just brought it to its logical imagery were a girl story to have as much weight as a boy's.
love lidia
@jacks:
both. i think they are paradigmatic themes in the lives of girls and boys.
love lidia
@bryanhowie:
bingo. because this novel is not written via Realism. right? it's written in the classical form of farce (see above definition).
too, characters are never people, much as we wish they were, and novels are never the "real world," even if you are like me and wish you could live inside them instead of the real world.
characters and novels are constructs, even in Realism.
so, that said, i followed the rules of farce quite precisely.
chuck and i have been laughing at how in Fight Club the hijinks are also unrealistic but everyone loves them, but in Dora some readers are like, what? too much mayhem! ha...
and for the record, not only have I, the Lidia, done several of these things in my youth, but several other women i know have, and still do. i'm kinda wondering if maybe people are in the dark about what it is that girls and young women think, feel, and do...maybe it's time we tell people?
that was a dual aim in both COW and Dora...
love lidia
Ahhhh. I am sort of embarrassed this didn't occur to me.
...before someone blasts me, YES, i'm sayng there's a gender bias there, but that DOES NOT MEAN i think i'm chuck. trust me. ha.
love lidia
The fight club ones were done by characters that are kind of horrible, so they don't seem as far fetched. Dora is rebellious but sweet. She's not a bad person.
I think it has less to do about gender/sex as it has to do with the psychology of the characters in Dora and Fight Club. I think that's part of the difference between Tyler Durden and Dora. One's a sociopath, the other is troubled. One is redeemable.
Something like that. But it could very well be gender-bias.
ha ha, Renee!
Question for you other readers, who were your favorite supporting characters in the book?
I am absolutely in love with Marlene, and I think most kids/real life "Ida/Dora's" who "make it," actually have their own versions of a Marlene; an adult who doesn't demean or speak down to these people while opening up the possibility of a better life on the other side of fucked up, with precious things like art, music, literature, sports, basket weaving, horse taming... whatever. (My own Marlene is an aging Jewish hippy whom I now refer to as "dad-like-figure.") The similarities between the relationships (minus all the trappings of drag and high femme) are too striking to be coincidental. We should all be like Marlene.
Yes. A Marlene, or if we are very lucky, several Marlenes.
And Bryanhowie, I'm going to jump in and say, NO, Dora is not troubled. She's been fucked with.
I meant 'troubled' in that way.
Right, then. As you were.
Who was your favorite supporting character, Bryan? Did you have one? Did you love the scene where Dora and Obsidian make out under the clothes rack in Nordstroms?
My favorite character in the book was probably Freud. He's a bumbling idiot who doesn't know how full of shit he is half the time, but he has one moment where he redeems himself - he has a line he doesn't want to cross. He wants to exploit his patients, but not in a Hollywood style way. Of course, money talks and he falters, but he has that one moment where he says no.
He's just so pathetic, I can't help but be in the underdog-fool's corner.
I have to agree with Howie, Freud feels like an anti-hero of his own universe.
I read the book because from what I've heard so far seemed interesting. What motivated me to buy the book was because you had an interesting concept. I'm just a minority here, so you shouldn't worry. The book club I was in years ago had a similar feel...where a person didn't like the book. I thought about not responding to this discussion, but you deserve to know that even though I didn't like this particular book, the entire experience was quite interesting. Made me a stronger reader and writer. Again, thank you.
I also felt an genuine pity towards Siggy. He gets his druthers, though and when he is caught out in Dora's room (and HE is the one who is misunderstood; OH, SNAP!) Lovely turn of la table, n'est pas?
Sigh. Telling someone they deserve to know you didn't like their work is really self important. Some of the LR book club months have the author, and some don't. It takes on a different meaning when you tell the author you didn't like the book. Especially if you can't or won't articulate why. In fact, if this were a book club month without the author, I doubt anyone would have responded to you at all since "I sure didn't like it!" doesn't actually contribute to the discussion.
So you were rude AND you contributed nothing to the conversation. No, I'm pretty sure Lidia didn't deserve that.
Well said, Sparrow.
for the record, i have a soft spot for siggy too. i don't know if it "worked," but a narrative aim i had while deconstructing a very patriarchal theme and concept was to NOT demonize men or a man. he does suffer, but we all suffer, and dora / ida certainly suffered at the hands of men who were supposed to take care of her and help her along the way...but i took great pains to NOT crucify him (well ok i crucified his wang a bit but hey. chris burden anyone?)...reading freud really did change my thinking pretty radically when i was 25. reading jung changed my thinking forever, too...i actually think all writers should read freud and jung, for realz.
the REAL freud wasn't doddering, however, he did have a bugar sugar chapter to his life that was pretty intense, and he did get caught up in his own theories in ways that probably created their own blindnesses along with all that insight...and most modern readers agree he got a LOT wrong about the psyches and bodies of women and glbt folks...
but i have a soft spot for him too. he's not evil. he's just sometimes wrong and blind, like we all are; the problematic thing is that culture treats some people as legitimate and knowledgeable and others like they are "sick." freud's REAL discourse became a kind of culture truth we are still grappling with.
i wanted to show how Dora is not "sick." she's self expressing and actualizing all over hell and back.
love lidia
(by the way, it's ok when people don't like my books. lots and lots of people are going to not like my books. i'm 50. i can take it. mostly. ha. i read tons of books i don't like but i learn from them anyway...)
(edited my long ramble down, took out the waffle and kept the coherent bits.)
I think Lidia's soft spot for the Sig shows. If she had really wanted to vilify him, the fictional version could have been so much more malevolent. After seeing all the promo for the book, I half expected her to work him over a little more. Glad she did it the 'right' way though.
Also - Dora: a Headcase, as a piece of art, explores the fluid nature of sexuality, an idea, I feel, with a lot of merit to it.
The pranks and stunts that Dora and her friends get up to - that isn't violence and mayhem, that is teenagers enjoying themselves. If they didn't have these outlets - well some real mayhem might happen, and the adults in Dora's world wouldn't know what hit them.
Also, I have this on my bookshelf, waiting to be read sometime. Check out the synopsis on the Amazon page. I read Gina's short story collection and really enjoyed it, so I picked this up a little while ago. Must get around to actually reading it.
Anyone that might have already read it - does it make for an interesting compare/contrast job with Dora?
Lidia, I would like to apologize for wording my dislike in an upsetting way. I guess I am still learning on how to become a better critic. Again, my apologies.
This is what I thought too, but somehow words escape me because certain concepts in the book were sort of a culture shock to me. There's been a blockage in my throat, and perhaps the book left me speechless. I pushed through and couldn't put the book down until I was finished. I am reminded of a student I once tutored, who didn't like the book I chose for him because it had a lot of swear words in it. I never knew how to respond to that.
Perhaps I haven't made myself clear because writing and speaking up my mind have been always difficult tasks. I'm powering through as I write this because it's a huge leap for me. The primary reason I've decided to join in this particular book club discussion was to learn to become a stronger writer somehow, be inspired, and I wasn't sure how this would work--but I'm glad I did, because it opened up a lot of wounds for me.
I guess I can understand the genius in how you interweave the original and put your own twist into it. In that sense, I was amazed. I guess I didn't give you the full story, not a very good critic in that sense. It wasn't my usual fluff that I usually read, and in a way, the story woke me up. Pushing through insecurities. Thank you for helping me push through. I was rooting for Ida the entire way. I didn't have a crush on Obsidian, but I was wanting a better life for her. I guess I wanted fluff, but that's what I shouldn't have looked for.
(The synopsis was a little confusing, or maybe it was just me, but I thought some of the people there were imaginary according to the book cover. And then I realized that they were real characters in the book.)
Lidia,
I'm majoring in human sexuality and the idea of "sexuality under siege" caught my attention. This isn't a question about the book, but I'm curious if you have any thoughts to share about the way women are taught about sex.
An article for one of my papers claimed that because abstinence-only education reinforces the idea that women can only say "no" and there are no opportunities in which they'd want to say "yes," we've effectively castrated women socially and sexually and turned them into perpetual victims, even when it's consensual, because there's less stigma on men for promiscuous sex but not for women.
So, my question: do you think that (societal and institutional) education factors into the idea of "sexuality under seige" that you mentioned?
Lidia,
Please know that when I asked about the Gemini stuff it was because I thought it referred to Dora and a Gemini-twin in the story, so I was trying to figure out who it was. So...um sorry about that.
Emily xo
My favorite supporting character was probably also Freud because, toward the end he's so comical and vulnerable that you just kind of root for him too. Having said that though I found all the main supporting characters (Dora's gang) to be enchanting and quirky.
If we have Lidia popping in to answer questions, we should really consider Chronology of Water as a book club selection. Not only is it the best memoir ever written, it's also the most uniquely put together. I have made friends read this book, and pretty soon I'll run into another friend who I'll recommend it to - and they'll have been recommended by the friend of a friend of a friend who I originally told. The book spreads like fire.
Rambling.... Point is. Chronology is life changing.
^ totally agree. I love that book, it's brutal honesty is beautiful.
Back to Dora question: When you wrote Dora, were you thinking of it as a book about gender/sex? Since Chuck and Fight Club have been brought up, was Fight Club an inspiration or something that kept you from putting a few tricks in that you had originally wanted? I guess I'm wondering... how did Fight Club affect Dora?
@roaringjen:
hey! no worries! we read to change. it's my personal belief that books should happen to you as a reader. the whole "like" or "didn't like" thing .... well, taste is taste, right? i read ALL OVER THE MAP. trust me. ha....you should see my bedside pile. it's thrillers and true crime and HIGH END literature and grapic novels and poetry and shitty commercial pulp and prize-winning laureats. thank you for hanging in there with Dora.
just read.
right?
love lidia
@courtney:
So, my question: do you think that (societal and institutional) education factors into the idea of "sexuality under seige" that you mentioned?
YES! oh yes. in fact i meant Dora to be a kind of sexuality and psyche girl warrior in exactly those terms.
love lidia
(also my next book has another one of those -- i have a trilogy meant to invent new "girl warrior myths..."
love lidia
@bryanhowie:
well chuck was by far my best reader for this work (with the exception of monica drake, who is a fellow girl nerd, and also obsessed with ida/freud)...so there's THAT. the wang scene simply would not have come together without his help.
but too, i actually believe Dora and Fight Club are in conversation with one another -- it's just something private between Chuck and I so it doesn't matter if anyone else "sees" it...
the conversation the novels have with one another has to do with constructions of masculinity and constructions of femininity and how gay and bisexual identity fit or don't fit within those lame-ass constructions.
because c and i don't quite fit into the constructions our culture handed us as people, so we make characters that "mirror" that struggle.
love lidia
you guys are awesome. thank you so much for reading Dora and also for the great questions. no one asked this but i'm on a roll...ha...
i think COW and Dora are actually quite similar (ssshhhh).
in COW i wrote the story of a girl who has to resucitate herself -- bring herself back to life after nearly drowning within the constructs meant to grow her -- family, education, society.
in Dora i wrote the story of a girl who has to go steal her own voice and story back from family, doctor, society.
see?
love lidia
That makes perfect sense. As a conversation between the two about gender roles adn such, do you think you would have written Dora the same if you had not read Fight Club?
Oh that's a great question, Howie. This is making me want to re-read Dora and re-read Fight Club and see if my head explodes. I like that you say they are "in conversation" with each other because two things happened for me with Fight Club--I got mad that people said it was for men, because I related to it and I liked it, AND I thought "Why ISN'T there a female version? We CAN be just as badass, lost, fucked up, etc etc." And THEN Lidia came along and cleared that all up.
And--I do see the similarities between COW and Dora. I love what you say about "creating new girl myths". I have an almost 3yr old girl that loves dinosaurs and Iron Man as much as she loves princesses and pink, and I feel like we owe it to kids like her (especially because I was a kid like her!) to create a world where that isn't something to be surprised about and there is no huge pressure to conform to a certain idea or aspect of femininity.
@bryanhowie:
i would have written Dora the same if i had not read Fight Club, but the book would not have been the same without Chuck's help in writing group. True confession: the viagra spiking? the wang scene? he was the only person in my writing group besides chelsea who said oh hell yes. now push it further.
i got more blow-back about smiley -- they were worried for me -- but i was absolutely positively convinced that smiley had to stay in. he's key. and beautiful. also, i consulted my dear dead friend ken kesey, and he said hell yes. smiley (special olympics) is a little bit of a nod to cuckoo's nest -- the "so called" deaf mute indian. another "ssshhhhh."
love lidia
I thought Smiley was the perfect character for the role he played, and the book wouldn't have been the same without someone playing that role! I thought it might be a nod to Cuckoo's Nest.
@sparrowstark:
bless you. thank you for noticing that. ken was a really close friend of mine. ahem. i actually think it's pretty damn cosmic that i met ken and chuck and we are friends in ONE lifetime. really. they would have liked each other. ken was my first writing mentor.
love lidia
I, too, was really happy with Smiley. He was great. Just the absurdity, bound in harsh reality (handicapped), that made a over-the-top scene become impossible not to love. For me, he felt like the Trickster Buddha - with a riddle that you can't answer and some secret to the universe that he wants you to understand but can't tell you because the answer is the answer that can't be spoken. He was very zen to me.
@bryanhowie: YES. that EXACTLY. kesey always said the chief was a trickster figure...
love lidia
I know I picked this book for the discussion, and it shows bad form, but previous engagements were stopping me from starting this until - today. I'm so stoked to get to it though, especially with Lidia being such a kick ass person.