Google Indivisible and RSVP the ph call for tonight 1-30-2017 with Indivisible and the ACLU regarding standing with the Muslims and further actions we will have to take unless we are going to let this slick takeover by the corporate fascists. Check with you fellow writers and get on this ph call. This is an EMERGENCY. People are sitting in airport detention cells with no legal counsel. Help the ACLU help us. Google Indivisible or the ACLU. I don't no how to link it for you. Check with Ricahrd Thomas or D. Foy or anyone else you trust.
Ugh, are we really doing this kind of thing in these forums?
Are you imposing your own personal gag order on me, Thuggish?
... i have that power..?
I think you will find you do not. If you don't like the conversation then why come in and sit down in the room. If the barn is burning, the sane thing to do is grab a bucket and get some water. Ever heard of a bucket brigade. Your displeasure does not determine whether or not I speak my mind. We have a small problem on our hands in case you haven't noticed. Putting up a thread in the community forum is perfectly appropriate and sane thing to do, under the circumstances. Writers after all dwell in the penumbra of free speech. You have the power to do a lot of things, but shutting me up is not one of them.
woooow, just kinda joking around with that last post there...
my original point was: why can't i escape politics anywhere i go?
This is much bigger than politics. I am dead serious no joke deeply horrified by the events of the last ten days. The fact that this is a site for writers, and no one is talking about the Muslim Ban and the other executive orders I find deeply alarming. You cannot escape when the shit is pouring in your front door. You cannot ignore this. It is way bigger than politics....human rights, justice, fascism, due process.
You can escape this. You do not have to engage if you do not wish to and others will stand up for you. We all do what we must. I am asking, in this tiny little corner of LitReactor for people to do what they can before it is too late to turn this around. The shit storm has arrived.....how you cope is up to you. I lose no respect for you, and in fact say thanks for talking to me about it. So far it's just you and me. thanks for listening.
Long Day. I learned a lot today. About myself and about this place. Whatever.
Alllllright fine, I'm going to engage for the sake of probing.
Why are you calling it a Muslim ban when it only restricts travel from 7 countries, and not the other 190 (i think was the number?) countries that are majority Muslim?
Exactly what 'human right' is being violated?
What does 'due process' have to do with anything when the ban does not apply to US citizens?
The moment he said Christians may be given priority, it was a Muslim ban. And the fact he outright said he was going to initiate a Muslim ban in his campaign. And the fact they are getting more information to add oher Muslim majority countries in the ban.
The human rights of refugees fleeing for their lives from countries that are either war-torn, or are actively persecuting women, children, atheists, and the LGBTIQ community simply for existing.
The U.S. as a member of the U.N. has agreed to be a country that will assist in all humanitarian relief efforts. By rejecting people from these countries, the U.S. is effectively going again U.N. policy. This could lead to other more serious sanctions agains the U.S.
When refugees landed in the U.S. they fell under the protection of the U.S., even temporarily. By sending them back where they came from, the U.S. is becoming party to their deaths. Hence, they need to be allowed due process so the U.S. can determine how to handle the situation on a case by case basis. A wide overarching order does not assist those on the ground with how to enforce an order that was written vaguely and without legal counsel, or security counsel.
Ohhh, Christians given priority, didn't hear about that part. This is getting good now...
Okay! So taking Syria alone, is that still a Muslim ban, or is it acknowledgement that the most likely to be targetted (as well as athiests, alphabet-soups, etc.), and the least likely to commit terrorist acts, are Christians?
Now, if the US were to establish a green zone somehow, rather than taking in refugees within its borders, is that not in accordancew ith the agreement to assist in humanitarian efforts?
Also, do you really think anyone is going to sanction the US in any meaningful way?
Wait, the 7 country travel ban applies to those already here?
@Jose. Thank you. Thank you thank you for articulating. I am so heartbroken and gut sick and tired I can barely speak today about politics. So thank you for saying these things.
@Thuggish, cut it out and just think about the spirit of the thing, which is welcoming people who have no where else to go becaue they are human beings who need food shelter and water and a safe place to lay down at night.To take them WITHIN our borders is so basic to who we are, why create zones...just let them the fuck in. They are our brothers and sisters and it is who we are. It is what Lady liberty stands for in the harbor...to be a harbor. Please cut out nit pick and go for the heart of the thing.
Finally, To be in a site of writers who's very existence is under threat in any totalitarian environment, which is what we are headed for, I find it nauseating, that no one is willing to talk about it. I GET keeping the work seperate from politics, but, what is the great silence in this place. that we cannot even talk about it. IS no one else even concerned about this?
Thank you Jose...I love you to the moon and back for speaking on a day that I am so hurting that I cannot put one thought in front of the other. This is the worst thing I have ever seen in this country, and I will be in the street and at the political offices and on the phone to try to stop the loss of our basic civil rights. We are not immune to a repressive surge of power. I am so thankful for the ACLU and Peace and justice folks and NOW and Planned Parenthood, and pink hats and women and babies, standing in the cold to say they stand with our Mulsim brothers and sisters. This is ugly. This is scarey. This will be a long climb, so I am trying to find the balance so I can sleep, and cook and play with my grandbabies, and do the work of fighting this slimy cold coup of cruelty. Thank you Jose for helping me to let the pain out. I am so grateful. gail.
cut it out? we're just barely scratching the surface!
first, the purpose of a green zone is to establish a safe place within their country that has, as you say, food, shelter, water, safety from the war, etc.
also, what about the concern that these refugees are essentially impossible to vet with much certainty? combined with the intention by ISIS to smuggle would-be terrorists in with the refugees
you're going emotional, talking about the statue of liberty and whatever, but come ooooon. i know you have more substance than that!
Thuggish. Fuck vetting.
You have no idea of what substance I am made. Cut it out means stop the lazy thinking and start thinking like other people could be your kid or your parent or your brother or your wife or your friend.
Fuck vetting. IT's just a cover word for sorting people. The statue of liberty means something to the people who saw it in the harbor, both the Jews who were turned away, in the numbers of almost 1,000, maybe 200 or more who died in the concentration camps because we sent them away. Deepest shame that I know of in American history. Oh excuse me, I forgot the massacre of the Indigenous People.
Can you imagine how those families felt to see that statue as they arrived, and then how they felt when they saw it receding into the distance as the had to leave. It means something. Vetting is just a comfortable way of saying sorting human beings into piles like dirty laundry. After of course, they have been searched for gold fillings, or jewelry sewn into the hem of their coat.
And. Re: due process: People sat in jails in airports with attorneys sitting in circles on the floor in the airport lobbies trying to get to them and not allowed to do so. Whether they were US citizens makes no difference if they are on US soil. Some of them were US citizens, "vetted" by their scarves and their skin. Fuck vetting.
@Kedzie. Thank you.
You're welcome. If this last week and a half have shown us anything, it is that you are not alone and that people really do give a fuck.
Just keep doing what you have to, don't over-extend yourself. This is just the beginning. We can take shifts and help each other out.
Don't feel that every single day requires a response. Don't forget to take care of your body and mind. We'll continue to need them when they're at their sharpest.
@ smithey
i have literally done nothing more than ask a few details, barely below the surface, of where you're coming from.
look how upset you're already getting.
you tell me to "cut it out" and "stop the lazy thinking" but i'm not being lazy, as stated before, i'm just probing. i daresay you've been lazy so far, by not answering the questions. or when you do, it's on the level of "fuck vetting." i'm just trying to get a little deeper into your perspective.
and look how upset you're getting.
oh, and let's note that i haven't expressed a single opinion, or taken any side, but it seems assumed that i have because i'm asking a few questions that amount to little more than "what about this thing on this side?" because i wonder what your response is to the argument.
and look how upset you're getting.
this is why i left post #2.
@Jose. I ate breakfast this morning for the first time in 2 weeks. I slept last night almost through the night. I got sunshine and fresh air yesterday. And today I already did my calls, very efficiently and w/o emotion. I'll go downtown to my congressman's office and see it as my daily walk.
I have been so heartsick. Because of you, I feel better. Thank you again for responding to my pain. I cannot tell you what it means to me, and I will begin to write my stories again in a few days. I hate politics. I love my country. I had no idea how much until of late. "WE CAN TAKE SHIFTS"....thanks...I am going to the ocean late in February. I will sit and soak it up. I have to go see that it is still there.
My greatest fear is that I will do nothing in the face of evil. I am not afraid today. I hope some day I get to meet you and give you a big fat embarrassing cheek pinch and a hug and an old lady kiss. I love you.
@Thuggish. Whatever. HAve a good day man.
See? You're STILL mad at me. Even after I explained what I was and wasn't doing.
Demonstration, complete.
@Thuggish. Do you need a cheek pinch. You can have one. Go in peace. I am not mad at you. Have a good day.
oh, well that's good. for the record i find your compassion admirable.
... wait, what cheeks are we talking here?
The ones right beside whatever orifice you are communicating from.
... what a good answer...
That was pretty much the best response to that question possible. Absolute best!
Thuggish, I believe that was proper shade. Proper proper.
i'm not entirely sure what that means
I'm sure you have google. I'm sure you have the means of locating information on your own. You're an intelligent human being. Acting the fool is getting old.
it wasn't my lack of google, which was the first thing i did, but the connotation. can't hear voice inflection via text only messages.
vagueness is getting old, how bout that?
Update: Washington State won in court today in a lawsuit filed by Washington State Attorney General Bob Ferguson against the trump administration's Muslim ban. It prevents the implementation of the ban in all 50 states. Judge Robatd handed down the ruling from the bench he was appointed to by George W. Bush. Thanks G. Dub. Never thought I'd be saying that.
Now we see if "the dude" obeys the Court.
One alligator down.
It could the part where he asked Giuliani how to legally do a Muslim ban that's partly made people want to call it a Muslim ban, I think. That and the way that it bans Muslims.
I used to obsessively consume news daily but have kinda gotten to that ostrich point of burying my head in the sand. Can't take it. Nope. Thanks for the news, Gail. That's good to hear. If you have Netflix and need a cheering up, watch Colin Quinn's New York Story. All about immigrants making NY what it is. Beautiful and hilarious.
Thanks bethwenn! I just got my Saturday morning belly laugh watching Jon Stewart on Stephen Colbert....I think from last night or the night before. I'd link it for you but sadly I don't know how to do that yet. I'm sure you can google it. Thanks for your link as well.
I'm good. Much better than last week. I just remember as a kid, when I read the "Diary of Anne Frank", wondering why everybody just didn't make a yellow star and sew it on their coat. It seemed so simple to me then.
I will watch the piece you linked. Thank you.
I haven't seen it yet but I have the episode on my DVR. I miss Jon. Trevor Noah is starting to get good and to get the hang of things on The Daily Show now, I think, but it's hard to ever replace Jon Stewart.
@bethwenn. I keep hearing about Trevor Noah and I will check him out too. I did love Jon Stewart on The Daily Show and I quit watching when he left. Comedy keeps me sane.
I watched Lady GaGa at halftime super bowl. It was under -the- radar- radical. Very nice piece of theatre crafted to a particular purpose. Nicely rehearsed and executed. Gutsy Guerilla theatre right under the noses of the nasty. It was in -your- face- pussy. Go GaGa. Made me happier and healthier. Most power is pussy power right now in case you haven't noticed. I'm laughing.
Beyond Chump's horrific treatment of people will be his vile treatment of the environment and the wild animals in it. Both are screwed under this man-child and his despicable trophy-hunting spawn.
Does anyone disagree that Muslim culture is at odds with Western culture?
For example, according to Pew Research, 84% of South Asia Muslims support Sharia Law; 77% in South East Asia; 74% in Middle East / North Africa; 64% in Sub-Saharan Africa. This means a belief system which permits stoning for adultery, death for apostasy, and death for homosexuality. These facts are particularly curious/troublesome in America where we often preach LGBTQ and women's rights.
Another issue is that the US public, especially on the Left, is conflating "being cautious towards Muslims" with being "anti-immigrant." Is it unreasonable to restrict air travel, especially from countries that have state-sponsored terrorism or where people are fond of chanting "Death to America"?
That said, I do concede that Trump's executive order, currently neutered via the judicial branch, was hastily rolled out and included a minor number of Muslim-majority countries while being sure to exclude any Muslim-majority countries where he has businesses, the sure sign of a kleptocrat pretending to keep a campaign promise.
Does anyone disagree that Muslim culture is at odds with Western culture?
For example, according to Pew Research, 84% of South Asia Muslims support Sharia Law; 77% in South East Asia; 74% in Middle East / North Africa; 64% in Sub-Saharan Africa. This means a belief system which permits stoning for adultery, death for apostasy, and death for homosexuality. These facts are particularly curious/troublesome in America where we often preach LGBTQ and women's rights.
How dare you suggest some cultures may be less assimilable to Western democracy, you're probably some privileged white male. Go commit your hate crimes somewhere else, maybe you'd be more at home at a rally for Trump aka Hitler.
I suspect most people know about the Pew Research studies. We get Bill Maher too, ya know. But, like you, we can see the inequities in what Trump rolled out. (And I appreciate your perspective on Trump.)
Personally, I hate all religions. But millions of American Muslims live in the US without incident. Or Sharia Law. Not sure about some of these hardcore Christians.
Not saying there's no risk. Saying that, so far, the benefits have outweighed the risks. One reason: The US actually does a pretty decent job at assimilation.
People are fleeing war torn countries that our (U.S.) policies have helped to destabalize. There's a moral obligation to help. And if we're really worried about terrorism, why isn't Saudi Arabia on the list? Egypt? UAE? No need to answer, you already mentioned. But it's more than Trump's businesses. When have we ever held Saudi Arabia accountable?
Lots of folks who are Muslim and no threat to the U.S. are now stuck on the outside, unable to get in. Or, in many cases, get back in (as they already live here). These include women with children who've been vetted for two years. Men who've been vetted for more than two years. A father, mother and newborn baby (named "Trump") stuck in Iraq while their two year old lies in a Boston hospital. Iraqi spies and translators who've worked with our troops for more than a decade. A 12 year old Yemen girl whose family lives in Cali. I'm not shaking in my boots over here. In fact, I'm more afraid of right wing crazies than these folks.
Anyway, some links.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-muslim-tra...
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/05/yemeni-girl-12-in-race-against-tim...
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article1295193...
All that said, I agree that this is not the place for political discussions. We all get more than enough in our social media feeds. I kinda got sucked into it by my strong dislike of The Conald.
So, if we aren't in favor of political talk for purely political reasons, let's discuss books and writing that are based on political premises; 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World, Animal Farm. Orwell bluntly states that all writing is political writing. It is created under the umbrella of a political power structure, which the author may or may not be aware of. Even simple pulp pieces are working under these umbrellas. If you have a romantic comedy, there are capitalist realities that allow the lovers to buy each other gifts, rent rooms on the beach, or go on vacation.
So, it isn't wrong for us to discuss politics, not in the least. Nor should we attempt to shame anyone for having political opinions. We can absolutely attack the ideas and not the person holding the ideas. I, like Kedzie, abhor religion, but I'm not against people. The novels I listed are also based on that tenant; people are more important than the ideas they hold. People are not only the ideas they hold.
I don't think anyone in here is going out of their way to make any other human feel like scum. We're simply having a discussion about matters that are important to us. And those ideas could someday be used to create the next great utopian/distopian novel, the next realist novel, the next any kind of novel. But, we mustn't restrict ourselves to only one type of discussion. We must embrace all ideas. We must look at them, understand what it is about them that we like or don't like. These are the building blocks for character.
So let's talk about all kinds of ideas, political, infuriating, frustrating, saddening. But let's not attempt to choke off conversation because it is hard, because it feels personal. Let's get back to deep, profound thought in the hopes that it will someday lead us to create. Paintings, music, poetry, prose. Let's talk and create. Let us be okay with getting mad and passionate, with being liberal and conservative, with being all that humans/humanity is. Let's talk and create. Let us love and create. Let us be us.
If we were to actually have a deep, profound level of discussion (the ever-unrealized ream, isn't it?), I'd like to hear people's thoughts on different immigrants. Are all immigrants equal? And what should be a nation's criteria for selecting the immigrants that it does? Should a nation even have criteria?
What problem are you trying to solve? We can't just launch into a discussion about immigrants and their "equality" as human-fucking-beings without some context on why we need to separate them from us.
I mean immigrant is a human who lived in one nation and is going to another for whatever their reason. Some because conflict, some because persecution, other simply for jobs/opportunities.
By asking if all immigrants are equal, you're asking if all human beings are equal, since an immigrant is a human being.
I mean, I'm not sure the US, or any nation, gets to select which humans they want to bring in. It's not an NFL draft. Here are the people who want to come to the US, numbers 1 through 10,000 you go to the US. 10,001 and on, either pick another place or wait for the US to accept more people. All countries in the UN are obligated to accept refugees based on capability of the country. Jamaica probably wouldn't do well with 10,000 new arrivals on their island.
I mean, besides not a criminal, what other criteria do they need?
@Thuggish:
Thug: n. Hindi thag, swindler < Sans. sthaga, a cheat, rogue, akin to sthagayati, (he) hides < IE. to cover
also: 1. a member of a former religious organization of India that murdered and robbed in the service of Kali, a goddess of destruction 2. a rough brutal hoodlum, gangster, robber etc...thuggery n. thuggish adj.
Websters New World Dictionary
@ Jose
No no, what I mean is, if you start with one assumption: more people want to come here than we can let in. Then, how do we decide? Now that's an interesting conversation. (I was just talking standard immigration, not refugees, etc.)
@smithey
... what?
@Thuggish: I think you can read. You picked the moniker. You just like to fight. Your arguments are dull and predictable and garbled. Write a decent sentence. Who is "you" and "we" and how do we decide "what"? ... laziest writing I've seen in a long time. Muscle up dude. You are not living up to your handle. I know you can do better. Sharpen you point. Define your premise. Deliver your thought. Head toward that "deep" and "profound" level of discussion you alluded to. Reach for the stars.
Are you from India by the way? How did you get in? Did you bar the door after you? Just curious, he who hides.
see? this is the problem. i'm not fighting, you're insisting that there be a fight. you tell me to write a decent sentence? have a decent thought! something deeper than, for instance, "fuck vetting."
i don't have a point i'm making, i'm picking a related subject and asking anyone who has a point to make it. i mean, literally, i just proposed a subject.
see, that's how twisted this shit gets. people think that by bringing up a subject, they're automatically doing it to push their own point. people think that when someone offers a counterpoint, they're automatically opposed to the original point, AND suddenly the original point maker's sworn enemy. it's absurd. and it's happened several times in this thread already.
i'm not from india, i'm a white as hell born here american. seriously, fifteen minutes is my limit before putting on a shirt or sunscreen. so, deal with that.
finally, my username was picked just because i've been using in a while. it started waaaay back when i was a (pre?)-teen playing pre-internet video game names. there was a game where you basically initiate a revolution against some massive corporation that controlled the country, world, whatever, i don't remember... while riots went on... and the name "thuggish" was born. possibly also influenced by a rap group around that time, it's been too long to remember.
so now that that's explained...
Hey jose! remember how you said we shouldn't attack the person for having ideas, but attack an idea and all that? well. here we are.
This is why my verrrry first response (see post #2 in this thread) was "ugh."
Thuggish. I can pretty much tell you are white.
Truce. I have no desire to fight with you.
This thread is getting a little out of control. How do you guys feel about maybe stepping back and catching your breath for a few days? This is a writing community, and I'd hate to see non-writing divisions form and inhibit the relationship you guys can have with each other as writers. No political issues are likely to be solved on LitReactor.
annnnd nathan sees the only point i've actually made as well...
I understand and feel Gail's anger, and I understand Thuggish's interest in detached philosophizing, and I agree with both Jose and also Kedzie + Nathan. Writing is political whether we like it or not, and we should be able to attack the ideas and not the person, and to get mad and passionate. But, at the same time, it might be difficult to benefit from each other as writers on this forum if we know too much about each other's politics. It's one of those bar-fight topics that could make you hate your coworkers who you have to see everyday. And this is a super emotional time for a lot of people, if not the majority of people (given that the orangutan lost the popular vote and his popularity is plummeting with those who did vote for him). Calm political discussion is a bit of an oxymoron, and especially so right now. The conduct of the ideal argument takes a lot of work to maintain even under ideal circumstances when all is going well. We're all human, and things are pretty shitty right now and morale very low and cynicism very tempting, so it's asking a lot.
The theoretical discussion on immigration is worth having, and any kind of serious philosophical debate requires cold detachment and abolishing the idea that anything is sacred and immune to questioning, but at the same time, for some of us, it's difficult to tolerate or calmly process any kind of ivory-tower philosophizing about it if this is something that actually affects your life or your loved ones. Given the present climate, it feels infuriatingly removed from the fray of things and coldly detached to the point of inhumanity. At least as long as we seem to be on track to possibly repeat historical atrocities, and there are small factions in the country who are in favor of that, and large factions who wouldn't do anything to stop it because they aren't affected by it and are made to feel afraid of and threatened by particular people. And this discussion is starting to give off those faint whiffs of evaluating an entire group of people's worth based on their religion.
So, maybe for right now, with the current climate and the things at stake and the worries that are keeping some people up at night, it's not a great idea? It'd be better to talk about when we all have cooler heads and don't feel like our lives are in crisis, maybe.
Have a bit of comedy instead? :D
(Just my two cents. You guys obviously can proceed however you want.)
