Josh's picture
Josh from New York is reading That New Scientology Book December 8, 2011 - 10:58am

you totally lost me with that Cinnabuns/Cenobites joke the other day

 

This made me laugh, and I haven't even heard the joke.

jacks_username's picture
jacks_username from Louisville, Kentucky is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland December 8, 2011 - 12:37pm

Surgeons of the underworld. Barker reminds me of Freud in some ways. Mostly the cigars. I still need to read Clive Barker but I'm scared I'll be disappointed. 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Lexington, Ky. is reading Strangers in the Land by Stant Litore. December 8, 2011 - 1:10pm

@doll - I'm not demeaning your accomplishment, I'm demeaning you! Wait that really didn't make this less awkward did it? Sorry I'm really bad at social situations.

averydoll's picture
Defender of the People
averydoll from Kentucky is reading Lisey's Story by Stephen King December 8, 2011 - 1:39pm

Well, that seems a bit harsh. 

I demean myself just fine without any help from others. 

aliensoul77's picture
aliensoul77 from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall. December 8, 2011 - 4:32pm

Barker is good, all his earlier stuff. The Books of Blood, Thief of Always and the Great and Secret Show. He walks a fine line between sexually perverse and surreal while maintaining a child-like wonder about the world.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Lexington, Ky. is reading Strangers in the Land by Stant Litore. December 8, 2011 - 4:56pm

I just want you to know that you have my support, not saying you need it per say.

Chester Pane's picture
Chester Pane from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz December 8, 2011 - 5:59pm

Not to be flash based, if indeed it is.

Either that or there should at least be a copy feature in the toolbar.

Whenever I go to copy something in the current window I am typing in, like this one, I am unable to.

I can only paste it, which gets me nowhere. 

Kirk's picture
Admin
Kirk from Pingree Grove, IL is reading The Book Of The New Sun December 8, 2011 - 6:09pm

You're using either Chrome or Safari. Webkit doesn't allow Javascript to directly access your system's clipboard. As such CTRL+C is your best friend.

I can get some sort of message in there to tell you to use CTRL+C, but you're still going to have to use a keyboard shortcut.

Chester Pane's picture
Chester Pane from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz December 8, 2011 - 6:29pm

CTRL+C doesn't work either.

CTRL+C doesn't work either.

CTRL+C doesn't work either.

CTRL+C doesn't work either. 

Ooops, guess it does.

I guess I wasn't doing it right again. Finally figured it out after two months. Takes a bit of getting used to. I guess it is the paste thing that is misleading. I want to see a little 'copy' icon pop up when I go to copy...or some sort of prompt.

Thanks for the help Kirk

Kirk's picture
Admin
Kirk from Pingree Grove, IL is reading The Book Of The New Sun December 8, 2011 - 6:51pm

If you used a less-awesome browser, you would see one pop up. Price you pay for security, I guess.

Chester Pane's picture
Chester Pane from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz December 8, 2011 - 6:55pm

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. No way I'm steppin' away from the Chrome. 

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from 2nd circle of Inferno is reading Books December 8, 2011 - 7:00pm

If you used a less-awesome browser

- Can't LitReactor be more awesome? I mean, it's pretty friggin' awesome, but hell, let's make it  the most awesomest workshop on the WWW. I like Chrome. On my cars and as my browser. Maybe add a little chrome to LitReactor? Like a set of fat 24" chrome rims, you know, bling this shit out, as the old people say.

Chester Pane's picture
Chester Pane from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz December 8, 2011 - 7:02pm

Diamond encrusted comment windows that twinkle.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from 2nd circle of Inferno is reading Books December 8, 2011 - 7:04pm

Tinted, too. Blacked out. 15" inch subs when someone posts a video. Kirk, you getting all this?

aliensoul77's picture
aliensoul77 from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall. December 9, 2011 - 9:40am

Angry Birds but the pigs are literary figures!

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from 2nd circle of Inferno is reading Books December 9, 2011 - 11:38am

Angry Birds but the pigs are literary figures!

- Angry Authors

.'s picture
. December 9, 2011 - 1:53pm

How about having the post to discussions reversed, latest at top? As of now, it seems backwards to have to go through pages just to read the latest post.

averydoll's picture
Defender of the People
averydoll from Kentucky is reading Lisey's Story by Stephen King December 9, 2011 - 1:56pm

It seems that would make the flow of conversation backward. 

Kirk's picture
Admin
Kirk from Pingree Grove, IL is reading The Book Of The New Sun December 9, 2011 - 1:58pm

That one isn't going to happen.

'Newest to oldelst' is only viable on blogs where people don't actually have meaningful discussion. Try catching up on a 3 page discussion where you have to read from bottom to top. It's incredibly obnoxious.

.'s picture
. December 9, 2011 - 2:06pm

True that.

Oh well, it just seems weird when you want to see what the latest post is and have to click on the pages at the bottom to get to it. Anyone else think that's weird?

I don't use these things alot, so my opinion could be off.

Maybe have a link that says "Latest Post" at the Topic level and you click that and BAM, you're right there looking at it?

Chester Pane's picture
Chester Pane from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz December 9, 2011 - 6:21pm

@Collins,

Well after a bit once you visit a thread you will start to see the red 'new' posts and that will put you right where you probably want to be unless I am misunderstanding you.

LitReactor Needs:

To enlist well-known authors and or instructors to pop into the Workshop at random to review submissions. Not only would this augment the wonderful peer review that is already going on, but it would also encourage Workshop participation, not to mention draw in new members.

Can you imagine a member of the workshop posting a submission then having it reviewed by Sinclair Lewis! 

Oh, wait.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Lexington, Ky. is reading Strangers in the Land by Stant Litore. December 9, 2011 - 7:08pm

@Collins - This relates to what you were saying.
This is a two part addition.
1) A pay upgrade that allows you so many posts/points a month for posting in the workshop, not sure the price point but a fairly high one to make sure the whole system doesn't fall apart. The income from this is used to fund 2
2) A professional(s) of some sort (writer or editor or some mix) who give at least a short review of every piece that gets posted to the workshop.

David Hanson's picture
David Hanson from Connecticut is reading Incredibly pulpy fantasy and sci-fi December 14, 2011 - 7:42pm

--WARNING: PERSONAL OPINION BELOW--

@dwayne... I'm not sure how useful the pay for more posts option would be. I find I get better quality reviews when I give quality reviews, and vice versa. The system here, as it is, is pretty genius that way in my opinion.

 I can see the need for a "premium workshop" section, with editors/agents/writers-of-stature/etc, but it would be important to seperate it from the regular workshop. But that would be a substantial cost increase (professionals charge pretty decent size reading fees). At that point, I'm not sure why I wouldn't just take a class.

All that being said, I would be interested to see what classes are coming up so I can budget appropriately (cut four bar nights out the previous month). 

Anyway, that's how I feel. 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Lexington, Ky. is reading Strangers in the Land by Stant Litore. December 15, 2011 - 1:44pm

I'm not sure how useful it wouold be myself, but I think it would sell and that everyone getting a pro/semi-pro to review it would be. 

Chester Pane's picture
Chester Pane from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz December 15, 2011 - 5:58pm

LitReactor needs to add a grammar category to the Workshop rating panel.

Raelyn's picture
Raelyn from California is reading The Doll's House December 15, 2011 - 6:21pm

^^^YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!

jacks_username's picture
jacks_username from Louisville, Kentucky is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland December 15, 2011 - 8:35pm

Grammar should be taken care of before it's posted. Of course very few people are copy editors either though.

Chester Pane's picture
Chester Pane from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz December 16, 2011 - 1:25am

My point exactly. Grammar should be taken care of, but too frequently isn't.

I just feel that that element is just as important as the others in the production of a crisp manuscript.

And with the industry going the direction it is, writers are going to be expected, out of pure necessity, to do more and more self-editing.

In other words, it would be another useful gauge in assisting workshoppers to get feedback on a crucial part of writing that too often gets ignored out of laziness.

I just want people to work harder on it, myself included. 

Plus at the moment, I don't feel there are enough stars.

People keep maxxing them out.

Liana's picture
Liana from Romania and Texas is reading Death by Sunshine by Allison Burnett December 16, 2011 - 12:41am

Hear hear! I think there should be more stars and they should be used more wisely...? If we want our work to get in publishable shape, we have to have people giving each other realistic ratings (to the best of our abilities). That's why I second a grammar star, and I'd also add a style star (or literary merits?). Something like that.

Of course, stars are the lazy people's comments so in fact comments are what are more useful than stars, but still a full set of stars might give a writer a false sense that the story no longer needs work.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Lexington, Ky. is reading Strangers in the Land by Stant Litore. December 16, 2011 - 12:43am

I’d like it to add stars for all those, and another for being marketable.

jacks_username's picture
jacks_username from Louisville, Kentucky is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland December 16, 2011 - 2:02am

Great idea Dwayne! 

David Hanson's picture
David Hanson from Connecticut is reading Incredibly pulpy fantasy and sci-fi December 16, 2011 - 2:50am

Personally, I feel like "marketable" is a shit category. Not saying that I disagree with the principle (being read matters), I just feel like for the purpose of the workshop it's pretty much worthless. Harry Potter was supposed to be a niche novel and turned out to be a world wide sensation, and it had no real precedent. To have a bunch of other aspiring writers judge something as "marketable" is, at best, useless, and at worse, a perversion of what the writer's workshop is trying to accomplish. Again, this is personal opinion--so take that for what it's worth.

cowboywerewolf's picture
cowboywerewolf from DC is reading Homage to Catalonia December 16, 2011 - 2:56am

The Dialogue rating could be revamped to be Dialogue/Prose. Some stories don't have a lot of dialogue. In those instances, I tend to rate based on rhythm and word choice in the narrative itself.

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts December 16, 2011 - 3:07am

The thing about grammar is I will let things go if I think someone is using it for narrative voice ((I do love my run-on paranthetical phrases) or if I don't think a story is ready to be that picked apart yet. That and I don't remember every damn rule all the time, and occasionally I'll have to check the grammatical corrections to my stuff to be one hundred percent sure. Routinely, here and other places by good writers, I'll get corrections on participial phrases that change the subject of the sentence, let alone that it was used pretty perfectly acceptable before. I just wouldn't want to put reviewers into the situation of grading grammar when a story has much more major problems already.

I think a style or a voice star would be really helpful (sometimes I will change the characters or concept stars in lieu of this.)

@ David: I get what you're saying. I don't think it should be a star because not every story should rely on it, but I do think it should be addressed in the critiques. Also I'd like to see people be willing to suggest markets to publish their stories in. If you review a dark fantasy/whatever genre/subject matter short, suggest a magazine or two that you think the story would do well in if you know any. Help your buddies out plz, it's not like you have to submit it for them, people!

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Lexington, Ky. is reading Strangers in the Land by Stant Litore. December 16, 2011 - 4:31am

@David - it's not so much that I expect high quality marketing advice here but some stuff just isn't going to be as marketable. You probably aren't going to get a best seller novel about 2 gay men (just friends) who have an obsession with collecting old matches living Ohio. You have a much better chance with standard strait buddies beat up bad guy gain item (women) in NYC. It doesn’t matter how good your work is, some stories are just easier to sell. Some folks have trouble seeing which is which till they get told by outsiders.

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts December 16, 2011 - 5:10am

Actually the first scenario sounds quite literary. Second sounds like a penny dreadful.

Chester Pane's picture
Chester Pane from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz December 16, 2011 - 8:28am

I thought Dwayne meant that as a joke. I would have to say that although marketability is extremely important, especially in this day and age, I think it has no place in this or any other workshop. 

Leave that discussion for the threads. The workshops are for writing and peer review, and as David so candidly voiced, marketability is far too obscure.

Write from the gut, then market the tits out of it.

@Rennie: I have no problem with writers deconstructing paradigms, in fact I encourage and applaud it. It is pretty obvious when that is the case. In addition, to do it with cunning, a profound knowledge of grammar is a prerequisite.

Also grammar and punctuation play a huge role in the structure and flow of a story. Huge. Some of the shittiest stories ever written have virtually succeeded thanks to them. However, many potentially great stories suffer from lack thereof. Again, with the publishing industry going through changes, I think it is a nice tool to sharpen. 

I am not implying that workshoppers come to class armed with perfect grammar and punctuation, I am suggesting that we place a star value on them to encourage everyone to improve them the same way we seek to ameliorate our work in the other categories. 

And I think this is directly related to prose. That is a great idea. 

I like that, Prose Stars.

@Liana: Agreed. This star inflation thing has got to stop. It is great to think you are encouraging a writer by filling their ego sky with stars, I think you are not helping them. Think before you star. And if you just did a shot and a big fat line, step away from the stars and come back when you're not so zotzed. I don't give a fuck if someone were to give one of my submission one star if they did a thorough, suggestion-filled review. 

Stars are Sheeny.

Renfield's picture
Renfield from Hell is reading 20th Century Ghosts December 16, 2011 - 8:56am

Encouraging grammar is great. But some stories may be at the level where I would focus my review solely on revision and not touch grammar and word choice, the writer should be rewriting all those sentences at that point. And green reviewers (or sumply ones with a different skill set) may be unconfident in their grammar critiquing (yeah, these people should be the ones we're encouraging,) I wouldn't want to hinder their willingness to critique by adding something scary. You can't just leave the grammar blank if you don't edit grammar for someone.

I could very well be underestimating the gen pop though. I don't know, maybe some other people can chime in on it. Everyone's probably geared up and ready to take people down on their comma splices.

Kirk's picture
Admin
Kirk from Pingree Grove, IL is reading The Book Of The New Sun December 16, 2011 - 10:17am

I don't think we've ever discussed grammar as a star-type before. But it's an interesting idea.

My biggest concern with it is that unlike all of the other categories, it isn't subjective. It almost doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me to rate it the same way you do something like dialog. 

Marketability, on the other hand, is something I don't think should be in there. It's important, yes, but are we approaching this entirely as "writing as a product" or "writing as an art". I think there is a difference and some people don't really care about marketability. 

Chester Pane's picture
Chester Pane from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot Diaz December 16, 2011 - 2:36pm

Good points.

How about just a 'technical' category like they have in the Olympics?

Technical could rate spelling, grammar and punctuation.

@Rennie. I don't see why something like grammar, spelling and punctuation should 'intimidate' anyone anymore than the other four categories. At least there's a fairly straight-forward science to it. Methods everyone should have learned in grade school and high school.

 I realize that our country's education system leaves a lot to be desired, and that not everyone received quality instruction in regard to this dry element of writing. Or perhaps like me they were out in the van with Jeff Spicoli during those lessons.

I will be the first to admit that I hate grammar as a writer. It gives me endless fits. But as a reader I adore it. 

If we are not willing to do it for ourselves then we should at least do it for our readers. Actually, that should be the main reason we do it. To make it as easy as possible for our reader to become immersed in the worlds we are creating.

Now if you want to talk about intimidating: Concept, Structure, Characters and Dialogue. Of the four which is the most teachable? Is there an equation for any of them? A book full of well-identified, practically universal symbols and guidelines? And how much do the four categories above rely on good grammar, spelling and punctuation in order to be executed successfully?

 

 

 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Lexington, Ky. is reading Strangers in the Land by Stant Litore. December 16, 2011 - 2:37pm

@Reinfield - The first was a collection of my ideas that bored me strung together as a story blurb. The second was a badly remembered summary of Die Hard 3.

David Hanson's picture
David Hanson from Connecticut is reading Incredibly pulpy fantasy and sci-fi December 16, 2011 - 4:11pm

@Dwayne... I just saw my post. Didn't mean to put it so bluntly. John Jameson encourages me to go on rants.

I liked how Chester said it.

jacks_username's picture
jacks_username from Louisville, Kentucky is reading Flashover by Gordon Highland December 16, 2011 - 4:13pm

...to sell me a damn coffee cup.

averydoll's picture
Defender of the People
averydoll from Kentucky is reading Lisey's Story by Stephen King December 16, 2011 - 4:24pm

"John Jameson encourages me to go on rants."

He's like that.

 

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Lexington, Ky. is reading Strangers in the Land by Stant Litore. December 16, 2011 - 7:29pm

@David - I wasn't offended. I wouldn't want it to contribute to the rating of the story's average; I just want people to get some formalized feedback on it.

@Kirk - I don't really buy the whole distinction between product and art. Writing is a craft like any other, there are scum in it like any other, and there are brilliant artisans in it like another other. Good craftsman puts everything he is into his work, than stands by it; be it a chair or a story. I'm not suggesting anyone should change everything they do in some silly attempt to follow trends, but it might help people be able to understand which pieces they are doing because they love the work and which ones they are doing because it might let them earn at least part of their living.

 

David Hanson's picture
David Hanson from Connecticut is reading Incredibly pulpy fantasy and sci-fi December 16, 2011 - 8:45pm

@Dwayne... 

I don't really buy the whole distinction between product and art. Writing is a craft like any other, there are scum in it like any other, and there are brilliant artisans in it like another other. Good craftsman puts everything he is into his work, than stands by it; be it a chair or a story.

I would debate that all day, get liquored up and fist fight (poorly), over that statement.

But I think in terms of whether or not LitReactor should build a Thomas Kinkade section out, I personally haven't seen the need for it with the people I've written with. And you even said yourself earlier that it probably wouldn't be useful for you, either.

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Lexington, Ky. is reading Strangers in the Land by Stant Litore. December 16, 2011 - 9:00pm

@David - I'm not really going to debate it with you. Either you agree or there isn't much to talk about far as I'm concerned.

Brandon's picture
Brandon from KCMO is reading Praise of Motherhood December 16, 2011 - 9:11pm

@Dwayne

Clarify this for me: you're wanting a section that relates to a story's marketabilty/potential to sell?

David Hanson's picture
David Hanson from Connecticut is reading Incredibly pulpy fantasy and sci-fi December 16, 2011 - 9:36pm

@dwayne.... awwwww. I love debates. 

Hetch Litman's picture
Hetch Litman from Ojai, Ca. is reading Argall by William T Vollmann December 16, 2011 - 9:51pm

i, for one, am not a big fan of either the grammar or marketability star ideas.Then again my grammar sucks and nothing I write has marketability, so.....