General Discussion : If you were to write your magnum opus would rather...?

No more riding on the merry-go-round....

@Alien - You always go for shock value, which is just so boring it is sad. When you forget to do that you actually seem like a really interesting writer, just let the random sex comments go man. It is the 21st century, who do you think it surprises?

You guys can make fun of it all day, knock yourself out. Can you provide a logical reason that I'm wrong?

I disagree about anyone being "wrong" here. Dwayne, you made a compelling argument. And, quoting a fav movie, "You're never wrong if you argue correctly."

I love you guys and your arguments. You do it well - like it's supposed to be done...

And he's a Mormon!

hahaha.  It's okay, Jessica.  You live in a different part of Kentucky!  So that's okay. 

AH-HA! "False dichotomy". I knew it.

Averydoll is a classical philosopher.

@Avery - Well I wasn't discussing laws, but moral impact. crack heads take away safety, thieves take away physical items, and dreamers take away the best parts of your future. All 3 remove something you care about while returning nothing of any value. So it isn't a issue of False Dichotomy. You by trying to show that the lack of laws against one makes them different then the others are setting up a Straw Man. My observation, that they all remove things, would probably be what you need to address.

@Utah - Who is a Mormon?

@alien - Much better, you sounded like an adult. Although I'd say that it isn't something that really needs forgiven.

@"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." - I'm not that into a quote that could just as easily be for members of N.A.M.B.L.A. as the communists it was written for.

I have decided not to be so overtly sexual anymore, from on now I wear my big boy pants.

There are probably examples of political science degrees making a difference. I imagine that a few political science degrees have changed the outcomes of elections if you're ready to listen about James Carville. It's not worth debating how much lasting change is established that way, I'll concede that aspect is kind of a racket. It's a useless degree by many standards. If you would like to argue about the potential applications of the knowledge, I mean, it's better than sociology. I happen to be somewhat passionate about my major, but it's whatever.

If it's slow, it isn't radical. The terms are exclusive. I know that is depressing, but it is true.

I think that we have a problem of scale here. What is the nature of slow. Now, this is my fault, but slow to me, in this sense, means, beyond a human being's lifetime. As a human being who percieves time, that is slow for me. Historically speaking this is not such a huge span of time, and not even geologically speaking, simply in the context of human events a single lifetime is not a long time. You want fast to mean that you get to the promised land in your lifetime. But human society is never going to be perfect, the morality of the race will remain a collaboration of cultural compromises that are formed in the scope of lifetimes. So, slow yes, you might not live to see it. But 300 years ago was not that long ago, historically speaking and in the context of that, the changes that the world has experienced in that time have been nothing short of radical.

The idea that you can change people's minds is so flawed I don't even know how to address it. There will always be bigots, killers, and people who just hate joy. If you are lucky you can get people who aren't like that to stand up to them, but I don't think that it is 'changing' anyone's mind.

And yet here we are. On the internet. Having a debate.

So, I happened to be watching Chris Matthews the other day, there was nothing else on and I was watching MSNBC. He happened to be talking about the whole Catholic Church doesn't want to pay for contraceptives deal despite the fact that it's part of the new mandate. I have no strong feelings on this issue, when he started talking about how Catholics feel like their church gets ragged on I sort of giggled because the Catholic Church damn well got what was coming to it.

But then he goes on, makes this whole tearful bullshit appeal about the first amendment and how this religion should be free to practice their faith and shouldn't be forced to go against their religion, but you know what, it changed my mind. I thought, you know, they shouldn't have to pay for that shit if they have convictions and whatnot.

So I turned off MSNBC before they started talking down my defenses on peripheral issues any more. But I think it's a valid point, what do you mean by change someone's mind? Do I think that some guy, say, working for the DEA is going to read Upright Citizens and then all of the sudden decide, "He's right, fuck this, I quit the war on drugs." Is that what you are trying to imply?

Did you get into my straw man machine? Wait, no, I found it. Fukuyama.

If you can't accept that someone has a worldview antithetical to your own I don't see you having any future as a writer or in politics. People don't always agree on things, and it's a bit immature to get upset when someone holds another opinion.

I didn't say I couldn't accept your opinion. I said that it frustrated me. I see it as if you choose to live without freedom. You chose and adopt all of these limitations and announce all of these impossibilities, and you chain yourself up. This upsets me some to see it. I say innovate. It is not the victory I crave, but the endless fight. Which of course will now be taken to have both literal and violent implications although I intended neither.

Life experience is good to get you ready for a win, not a value in and of itself. Failure is like poo, it might be worth something because of what can grow out of it but by itself it is just shit.

Somehow I suspect that you have no idea what you are talking about. Have you ever failed at anything? And I don't mean "didn't make the baseball team" failure, I'm asking, when was the last time you were hitchhiking home from Canada with no passport, without a dollar to your name, bruised all over. When was the last time you really tasted failure?

It's not feeling insignificant to accept that people are people and change is a really hard, very slow process.  I know that any change I bring about will either be small and focused or a small part of a slow larger longer process. I wonder what kind of self esteem problems folks have if they need to feel like they can really alter things quickly, without work. Is your self worth really tied up in thinking you are important to some super insaneo awesome over night world changing event? If you are okay with yourself it doesn't seem like it would be that big a deal to accept.

Dwayne, I'm enjoying this discussion, and I know that you haven't slipped into the territory of a full ad hominem, but your backhand remarks about "maturity" and "self esteem," I don't know, to me they feel a little disrespectful and I don't appreciate them.

I'm convinced that the altitude you have is a depressing drug, so yeah I guess I might be buzz kill the same way someone who wants the Meth user to stop is a buzz kill. I've already seen too many folks who used to be good friends just check out of life because they were disappointed dreamers. Things didn't go well and after 10 or 15 years they just ended up going to work and going home literally doing nothing extra besides slowly going mad. If you accept early that things are what they are and you'll have to work like a mad man to change it, and even then it won't be a parting of the Red Sea, you don't need silly dreams.

A depressing drug? Why? You have not seen my dreams. Slowly going mad? My friend, I've been here for a while. The water's fine. I feel... free... I don't need a drug to help me feel free or to find that "utopia" because there is no utopia, I never claimed there was any utopia. In fact, the whole straw man argument I repeatedly tried to pin on you was that YOU believed in such a thing. The world is what the world is of course, but it will change. Will it get better? Will it get worse? Will we develop reasonable metrics by which to determine whether it is better or worse? One thing is for sure, it will be different. I'll lend my hands to the process of changing it, even if I only change some people's minds on what are to them totally peripheral issues, I mean, I don't need to see results. I assume that I will not, slow for me, but quick for history and getting faster every day. Things will happen and if I've done my job right I'll be dead by then, but at least I will have been free. Freedom isn't something that someone else can permit you, it is an approach to life, developed internally. It means believing that you can do things.

Sometimes, when you aren't failing at anything, it just means you aren't trying anything new.

You know, one of the real problems with internet debate is that pride gets in the way, people keep arguing on and on past the usefulness of the debate just because they want to "win."

Anyways, so,  very little of what you said made sense to me. I'll just assume that there is a gap between our life philosophies is so great that it cannot be bridged. I wish you the best existence that you can get.

But the win as you percieve it is an illusion. There is only one victory, and that is to satisfy your own terms. In any event, I shall be battling for the last post elsewhere.

Now hug it out bros!

I always felt that the Internet was a great place for people to attack one another's ideas - like true argument should work - rather than attacking one another.

Personal attacks on the Internet are meaningless - more like an exchange of insults, some of which I've found quite useful In The Real World.

But, Internet exchanges are often unedited first drafts so I just red-pencil those personal things.

I also am reminded just how much human communication depends on tone of voice, nuance, body language, etc. Now, in writing prose, I try to show the characters' behaviors as they speak so that the reader may catch some of this other-than-written human communication...

At any rate, my personality is some admixture of sense, sensibility, reserve, callousness, indifference and objectivity...yeah, sort that out. And get back to me with the explanation...

K Boone, but what about you then. Bloody Money or Eternal Glory?

@averydoll: you saw the episodes with me in them?!?

Damn Internet...nothing remains buried for long...

I was the roommate on there who yelled a lot and then got in the hot tub.

Remember the guy with the...what was it?  peanut butter?  Does anyone know what I'm talking abut?  Do I know what I'm talking about?

No...it was the guy who was eating somebody elses pb.  Like with a spoon out of the jar.  And it was gross. 

Yeah because the guy was really gross on top of that.  UGH!  I have to go look this up now. 

What's my hint?

@Avery:  The chocolate ice cream...isn't ice cream.  Peanut butter does not hold a candle.