Redd Tramp's picture
Redd Tramp from Los Angeles, CA is reading Mongrels by SGJ; Sacred and Immoral: On the Writings of Chuck Palahniuk; The History of Sexuality by Michel Foucault October 21, 2014 - 12:57pm

I understand people have to develop a feel for this sort of thing, and that people do it differently, either by hashing out the rough details before-hand or by discovering as they go. But I want to know how you, specifically in your experience, find yourself settling on plot points. How do you decide, "yep this would be a good scene to have, in fact the story needs this scene"? And then, let's say you work out the vague map of events, how do you get the story from point to point? How do you know what information to salt in and when and how much? 

Seb's picture
Seb from Thanet, Kent, UK October 21, 2014 - 2:56pm

In short stories I plan it all out. For larger works I start with a few early plot points, whilst I'm still developing the characters, then leave them to get on with it and wait to be surprised. If I've done it right I will be, and if I don't see the end coming then neither will anyone else.

Anna Gutmann's picture
Anna Gutmann from Ohio is reading American Gods October 22, 2014 - 6:09am

I'm a bit of an obsessive compulsive when it comes to planning and plotting.

Before I start a new manuscript, I use the attached documents to draft up a rather detailed outline. The Word document is a brief summary of the book "Story Engineering" by Larry Brooks. It provides info regarding what certain plot points are and where they should generally fall. I also use an Excel document that gives me space to write decriptions of each chapter I'm planning in my manuscript. It also forces me to directly define the first plot point, midpoint, second plot point, and pinch points, and can track the word count of each chapter so these points fall in the right place in the first draft. Unfortunately, LitReactor doesn't allow Excel attachments, so I couldn't include it in its original capacity, but I have included a screenshot of what the sheet looks like.

As you can probably tell, I try to stick to this model as close as possible during my first drafts. Once I've hit my projected word count and begun revisions, my second drafts and on sometimes shift around depending on what needs to be edited or overhauled.

For a long time I was the type of writer to just freewrite without any defined plot points at all and it would take me anywhere from six months to years to finish what I started, but upon starting the model described above I've found that once I get to the actual writing, I can churn out an incredibly polished first draft within the span of one to two months. Outlining does take a lot of time--anywhere from a couple days to a month, depending on how well the story concept is defined in my head--but it's become worth it. Definitely makes for less work during the revisions process in the end.

Was originally scared to share all this because I don't want to seem like an overly organized freak, but if I'm completely honest with myself, that's exactly what I am ... and if giving away my outlining process helps anyone else as much as it's helped me, then it's worth looking a little weird.

Redd Tramp's picture
Redd Tramp from Los Angeles, CA is reading Mongrels by SGJ; Sacred and Immoral: On the Writings of Chuck Palahniuk; The History of Sexuality by Michel Foucault October 22, 2014 - 7:57am

@Seb: Okay, that makes sense. I guess my next question is...how do you decide if a certain story should be a short story or something larger? My current experiment, I've long known where I want it all to go, at least I vaguely know the end, the climax, and it always felt like it would be great to squeeze it into a short story. But the more I write it, especially not knowing the scenes I need to GET to the end, the longer it starts to get. The idea, though, of stretching it all into something novel-length is just terrifying to me at this point.

 

@Anna: That is just so brilliant. I really envy people who are able to be organized. My brain is like a wood-chipper with me standing behind it trying to catch some chunks in a paper cup. So thank you for that attachment, I feel like it made clear a lot about the mechanics of a plot, about the pacing.

I'm like halfway through my sort-of first draft of a story that's been cooking for awhile now, and it's starting to get to the point where I'm just like, why keep it going, what the hell do I need to connect the parts I DO know need to go in there? I say sort-of first draft, because it started with a vague idea and a freewrite first-first draft--which was useful because moving the characters around a bit through almost pointless action really helped me get to know them. I ended up scrapping that "draft" when a good opening scene just exploded in my head, the ending scene actually but in an O-shaped plot. I wrote that opening scene, just three paragraphs, and since then it's been a cut and paste jigsaw puzzle of writing new scenes, moving them around, taking them out, trying to know the actual story more so I can stop over-thinking it and just write it, the way it needs to be.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's Digest October 22, 2014 - 8:37am

I just write. I get an idea in my head, whether it be a title, a character's name, setting, a scene, whatever, that's where I begin. My current wip started with the line: I have no dignity, which is the opening line of the story. I just went from there. I've read the Larry Brooks book and it's great but sometimes I get too bogged down in technicalities. I figure out what my targeted word count is, then every 25% drop a plot point, preferably a bomb that fucks shit up. I try to keep tension/conflict medium to high in every chapter/section. Once I've gotten so much written and have a vague idea of where I want it to go I'll start dreaming up ideas, things I can put the narrator through. For my current, I know the next plot point, not a major one, but one that propels the story into the following plot point, which is the high point of the story, that point where it's make or break for the narrator, then there's one last point, not major either, that take takes the story into the end. I have a very rough draft of the last section and an idea of how I'm going to get there from where I'm currently at. Aside from all that, I have no idea. I have the next section written out, a start of the section after, and once I get there I'll figure out where the narrator will go next. I like to keep it fresh and exciting.

 

Redd Tramp's picture
Redd Tramp from Los Angeles, CA is reading Mongrels by SGJ; Sacred and Immoral: On the Writings of Chuck Palahniuk; The History of Sexuality by Michel Foucault October 22, 2014 - 9:07am

I like that, a target word count and a plot point every 25%. Helps narrow the focus but gives plenty of wiggle room. I probably just overthink everything. I can't put a sentence down without analyzing the fuck out of it, tearing it apart and putting it back together. I know you're not supposed to edit anything until your second draft, but I just can't help it. I can't get the story out if I feel like the prose is lacking, which is ridiculous. The fancy description and unusual wording comes so much easier to me than the mechanics of the story. It's hard to just write. When I do, I hit walls where my brain is like, "what is this stuff you just wrote? Is it pointless bits of fluff? Do you even know what you're doing?"

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updated October 22, 2014 - 8:45pm

I just write the stuff I know I want to happen and string it together.

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's Digest October 22, 2014 - 10:29pm

@Redd: Check out these videos by Robert Olen Butler. There's 18(?) of them, each one about two hours long. They were for a FSU creative writing class. He was doing a project with postcards and these videos are of him writing a short story for a book of shorts he eventually published called Had a Good Time. The videos can get boring, so you might want to skip ahead a little to get past all the crap. He starts from nothing and writes a short story, with each video expanding on what he had done the previous days. The reason I post this for you is because I also had a problem with editing as I went, especially novel length work, and I could never get past the first few chapters before getting stuck. I always had a hard time figuring out how much editing I could do as I went (obviously there's going to be some) until I watched these videos. Watching the way he works, how he edits as he's going, but continues to move forward helped me immensely. And as a note of credibility, he won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction in 1993. I have a couple of his books including the one mentioned above and yes, he is a fucking damn good writer. Check it out, especially the first five or six where he's still figuring out the story. It might give you some perspective on the whole editing as you go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIcnmiT0Mc8&list=PLTCv6n1whoI23GmdBZienRW0Q0nFCU_ay

SConley's picture
SConley from Texas is reading Coin Locker Babies October 23, 2014 - 6:05am

I think of an image and build a story around it. By image, i don't mean just a picture of something, i mean a fully immersed vision of something. I think of something and then look around. What am i doing, where am i, who else is there, what's above me, behind me, in front of me. Then i write manically by longhand until i'm done then i leave it alone for a week, then i go back and edit while transcribing it to the computer. This is only recently, i didn't always do it this way.

I hate outlines, i used to joke with my comp teachers that i shouldn't have to write them because i don't need them. I have a historical thing i want to write someday that will take some research and will likely need an outline but otherwise i can't do it. It's too mind-numbing, too structured. Half the time, i don't even know where the story is going until i get there.

Fluff's picture
Fluff from Sweden is reading Road Dogs October 23, 2014 - 6:20am

I totally wing it. Usually A concept and a few plot points pop up into my head. Then I assemble them in a word file or on a paper and then I start writing. Usually I try to keep my plot points apart. I write only short stories though. If I wrote a novel I would probably do some more plotting/planning. 

 

Redd Tramp's picture
Redd Tramp from Los Angeles, CA is reading Mongrels by SGJ; Sacred and Immoral: On the Writings of Chuck Palahniuk; The History of Sexuality by Michel Foucault October 23, 2014 - 7:55am

@Moon: Yessss thank you! That sounds like just what I need. I'll check those videos out as soon as I have internet access that doesn't block youtube (damn elementary school). Cos I don't want to plan EVERYTHING out, I do want to feel that thrill of making something up and following it somewhere insane, but often I don't feel well enough equipped to just let go and have it take shape. I have before, mostly for very short fiction, but longer stuff (even as long as a short story) trips me up. And I think that's probably one of the most important part of this whole writing thing, that I feel well enough equipped to do it.

@SConley: I always hated outlines too. I'd always just sit down and pour it out. But, I dunno, recently I've been really trying to get better at this whole thing, and if I don't at least outline in my head a bit, I'll end up feeling like the whole draft is a little aimless. That's just me though, I have a meandering imagination. Fucking ADHD.

My recent project was conceived by me realizing what one of my biggest fears would be, a terrible way to die that I could barely even force myself to imagine. So I built that into an idea, two brothers who run a pawn shop, one brother is a drug addict and the other is the more responsible older brother. A stranger comes in looking for a ring, they won't give it to him, and things escalate. I know I want the stranger to have ties to their past, though the brothers don't know it. He uses a means of...persuasion, my biggest fear, to get what he wants. I also see the end sort of clearly. Where things have ended up and why. I just don't know exactly how to get there. When to inject backstory and how, what scenes would highlight what I know about the characters' personalities. Do you guys think I should just push the characters around and explore?

SConley's picture
SConley from Texas is reading Coin Locker Babies October 23, 2014 - 8:17am

I'm for hinting at a back story because too much is no good. I'm reading this book right now that was really good but then the protagonist goes on and on for almost a whole chapter about his childhood and his parents and his education and it completely stalled and bogged down the book. It's boring to me. I think it's better to pepper it throughout the book or story unless it's totally paramount to the plot.

Redd Tramp's picture
Redd Tramp from Los Angeles, CA is reading Mongrels by SGJ; Sacred and Immoral: On the Writings of Chuck Palahniuk; The History of Sexuality by Michel Foucault October 23, 2014 - 9:12am

So would you recommend hiding it in physical action, non-flashback? Or through dialogue? I'm tripping because the narrator doesn't know this big truth for most of the story, the big truth being that the strange man has been in their lives before, that he may or may not be responsible for what happened to their father. The narrator doesn't know it because what he witnessed when he was young--what happened to his father--traumatized him, and so he doesn't remember a lot, like what happened to dad, what dad was like, why narrator's so damaged and uses drugs to numb his anxiety. But I want him to find out, remember as the story goes and the stranger maybe reveals some shit. I just don't know how to establish backstory when the narrator doesn't even know most of the backstory. He only knows, and only cares about the present, about his next opportunity to get high. I have the climax in mind, but I don't know how to build up all that emotion to make it satisfying. Does anyone have thoughts?

Kacie Cunningham's picture
Kacie Cunningham from Indiana is reading too much to keep this updated October 23, 2014 - 9:58am

What point of view are you writing in? If it's third-person omniscient, you could always write a few sections from the stranger's point of view, or drop in backstory that way. Or have the stranger drop hints, trying to find out how much the narrator DOES remember, but he's so blissed on drugs he doesn't make the connection, yet the (presumably sober) reader puts it together. 

Just a couple thoughts. 

Redd Tramp's picture
Redd Tramp from Los Angeles, CA is reading Mongrels by SGJ; Sacred and Immoral: On the Writings of Chuck Palahniuk; The History of Sexuality by Michel Foucault October 23, 2014 - 1:14pm

@Kacie: That's a great idea actually. I'm writing from 1st person, I almost always do. But I never even thought of switching narrators to a different point of view. That could really work. Would be so damn hard, but a fun challenge. Would also keep the stranger from being a straight-up bad guy, which I don't want. He's got his reasons for what he does. I also hadn't thought of the stranger testing the narrator to see how much he knows. Obviously the stranger would recognize them, he knows the pawn shop. Their father ran the shop before he died, and then the boys took over. He also knows that his ring is there, he goes in there on purpose.

edit: Ohh, I hadn't seen that you were saying if in 3rd person I could switch to the stranger's POV. You think it'd work from first-person too? Totally switching narrators from section to section?

Redd Tramp's picture
Redd Tramp from Los Angeles, CA is reading Mongrels by SGJ; Sacred and Immoral: On the Writings of Chuck Palahniuk; The History of Sexuality by Michel Foucault October 23, 2014 - 1:13pm

@Fluff: So you get the idea, and assemble a couple plot points into a simple, vague map to sort of follow?

R.Moon's picture
R.Moon from The City of Champions is reading The Last Thing He Wanted by Joan Didion; Story Structure Architect by Victoria Lynn Schimdt PH.D; Creating Characters by the editors of Writer's Digest October 23, 2014 - 11:38pm

edit: Ohh, I hadn't seen that you were saying if in 3rd person I could switch to the stranger's POV. You think it'd work from first-person too? Totally switching narrators from section to section?

- Yes. Check out Bret Easton Ellis's The Rules of Attraction. I write primarily in 1st person and I've written from multiple viewpoints. Just make sure that each of your characters have their own voice and personalities. 

Kacie Cunningham's picture
Kacie Cunningham from Indiana is reading too much to keep this updated October 24, 2014 - 6:00am

@ Redd : I absolutely think it works in first person, as long as you stay IN first-person for each of your points of view. Personally I love reading from the 'villian' point of view because it allows the writer the chance to make the 'villian' a fully realized character, not just a cookie-cutter bad guy. Nuances are important to characterization. I agree with Ryan, above, though ... it's essential for each to have his own voice. 

Redd Tramp's picture
Redd Tramp from Los Angeles, CA is reading Mongrels by SGJ; Sacred and Immoral: On the Writings of Chuck Palahniuk; The History of Sexuality by Michel Foucault October 24, 2014 - 7:45am

@Moon: Rules of Attraction is on my to read very soon list. I love Easton Ellis, I've read Less Than Zero, American Psycho, The Informers, and Glamorama, but I have yet to get to Rules of Attraction. A lot of people seem to say it's their favorite of his.

Good point guys. I'm still working on my characterization skills, so I'm really going to have to work on each character having their own voice. Is there anything I should keep in mind about suddenly switching to a new narrator? How do I make that transition smooth, so it won't confuse the hell out of the reader? Aside from different voice, I mean.

Kacie Cunningham's picture
Kacie Cunningham from Indiana is reading too much to keep this updated October 24, 2014 - 8:01am

@ Redd -- title the section with the narrator's name. 

Redd Tramp's picture
Redd Tramp from Los Angeles, CA is reading Mongrels by SGJ; Sacred and Immoral: On the Writings of Chuck Palahniuk; The History of Sexuality by Michel Foucault October 24, 2014 - 8:12am

Good idea Kacie. This is going to be hard, haha. But when isn't it?