Raelyn
from California is reading The Liars' ClubDecember 21, 2011 - 6:38pm
Apple-faced dolly :p
Chester Pane
from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot DiazDecember 21, 2011 - 6:53pm
At least you didn't call me a c...
How ironic that a post that I almost said the C-word in got me the Wordsmith scab.
On the subject of all the Brown's and Meyer's out there:
I just love the fact that millions and millions and millions and millions...even billions of dollars can be generated with a book.
Good or not, there's something phenomenal going on there.
On that note, has anyone read The Millenium Series? I've heard both good and bad. Well at least if it's shit, there won't be anymore from Stieg.
postpomo
from Canada is reading words words wordsDecember 21, 2011 - 7:37pm
I read the Millenium - the first two are OK for what they are. If you like those don't read the third one. It wasn't finished. He forgot to add the suspense. I don't get why that story got so much attention. I guess Stieg's life & death story helped to create a buzz.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedDecember 21, 2011 - 7:54pm
Yeah I'm going to get slammed for this but oh bell.*
I know that many people who love books get caught up in word forms and obscure authors, than end up looking down on most readers saying, "Oh if that crap can be popular I know I can!" But I think that we miss the point that most popular authors have in common, namely they tell a story, a naritive with a beginning, middle, and end (sometimes in cycle form). I don't know if it's a basic human trait or something that only comes from English speaking cultures but look at the popular art forms and unpopular.
Paintings, most classical music, sculpture, and most poetry don't tend to tell a story.
Comic books, most comedians, movies, television, most pop music, most religious music, novels, and short stories. The only exceptions to this would be plays and tattoos.
These folks SUCK horribly at the medium they have choice, but they understand (or at least have a powerful ability to use) the more basic tool of storytelling. And really all most folks care about is the story.
*for the record I say oh bell on purpose.
postpomo
from Canada is reading words words wordsDecember 21, 2011 - 8:02pm
@Dwayne - the only thing I feel compelled to slam you about is saying "oh bell" on purpose. that's just messed up right there ;)
I disagree though, that painting, photography, sculpture, classical music all tell a story. They just don't tell it using words (most of the time), but do it using images. The images, whether made with pigment, sound or language communicate something to us. Sometimes it's a story. sometimes it's a single moment that suggests the rest of the story.
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedDecember 21, 2011 - 8:44pm
I'm being literal, not mean here but I'd say you mistaken about the meaning of the word.
: to tell (as a story) in detail; also : to provide spoken commentary for (as a movie or television show)
If there isn't a narrative, if there isn't telling it might be art but it isn't a story. Those other forms might IMPLY a story, feeling, or mood but that do not come out and tell one.
postpomo
from Canada is reading words words wordsDecember 21, 2011 - 9:26pm
gotcha - well, the word 'story' has a rather elastic application, but I get your point.
two of the most popular genres in their forms (in terms of $$$) are pop music & romance novels. Doesn't matter if it's popular or not, that stuff is lacking in longevity. These aren't works that we're going to be regaling each other with in another in three years, let alone in a century.
Bach & Chaucer can't compete with modern sales, but they have lasted an awfully long time. I don't think we can say that about those books Fabio was on the cover of, or that song I heard on the radio.
And Dan Brown is no Herman Melville (whom i haven't read, akshully).
Dwayne
from Cincinnati, Ohio (suburbs) is reading books that rotate to often to keep this updatedDecember 21, 2011 - 10:22pm
I’m not taking up for is and isn’t popular just making an observation. And change is impossible without understanding the situation you find yourself in. Tthe vast majority of popular art includes an easy to follow/sum up narrative. It can be a great well done complicated narrative, but it seems to have to fall in those guidelines. Beginning, middle, end, easy to follow. I'm not saying everything with a powerful story will become popular, but it does seem to be a requirement for a piece to get even a strong cult following.
And despite a lack of longevity they still tell a story. That combined with some marketing makes the popular even if the way the story is told is just horrible.
I understand that as someone who wants to write something deep and touching trying to understand why the Twilight books are popular is like trying to understand why someone would Jeffrey Dahmer raped, killed, and ate men. Still like a FBI agent who tries to hunt serial killers that is part of the job, like it or not. Joyce Meyer's method is one of the worst I've ever seen, the main character is a girl who can't make up her mind between necrophilia and bestiality. But it also deals with the fear of being alone, a universal human theme. People don't read because of the horrible plot, they read because of a mix of marketing and the reassurance of the story. Bella found love, I can too.
And Herman Melville told a story.
Brian Ingham
from Stillwater Oklahoma is reading There is No Year by. Blake ButlerDecember 21, 2011 - 11:35pm
Wow...just reading this thread has really bummed me out.
I love to read...always have, always will. I try to change up my selection as much as possible, read new authors, read books that I have never heard of, read genres that im not used to, etc. As writers, shouldn't we all do that?
I must admit that I'm a little upset by this whole topic...I've avoided sites like this for a long long time for multiple reasons, one of them being that I can't stand pompous literary snobs who blast people for their opinions or look down on someone for what they read. Also, how in the fuck do you lose respect for someone because of what they read!? That to me is the most ridiculous thing i have ever read on any website, ever. One of my favorite authors happens to be Bret Easton Ellis, so automatically, before you even meet me or read my work, you lose respect for me? Does that make me less of a writer for liking his work? Does it make me less intelligent than those of you with your noses in the air? I'm baffled by this, truly.
I guess I need to apologize....I like to read. Anything that I can get my hands on actually, whether it's Stephen King, Will Christopher Baer, JK Rowling, Bret Easton Ellis, Chuck Palahniuk, Blake Butler, Carlton Mellick 3, Dan Brown, JG Ballard, Stephen Graham Jones, Craig Clevenger, or a cereal box, and I'm literally blown away by the fact that just by announcing that, I'm going to be looked down upon. This thread is the epitome of pompous literary bs, and I really hope not everyone on this board is that shortsighted. I'm less than a year away from getting my doctorette yet apparently I'm unintelligent bc of what I choose to read, and disrespected for what I enjoy.
I have a lot of work I'd like to post in the Writers Workshop, and I was really looking forward to getting positive feedback from people who actually care. I was excited to read everyone else's stories and try to help out as much as I possibly could, but now...I'm a little hesitant. I've basically already been told that I'm not as respected as the rest of you because of what I read...I just hope there are people mature enough to give constructive criticism and not hold something so trivial against me.
postpomo
from Canada is reading words words wordsDecember 21, 2011 - 11:46pm
@Dwayne - I agree - these examples tell a story, all too often it's the same story we've heard lots and lots and lots, which is okay, since it's a good story. I was adding that stories that resonate with more depth tend to have longer lifespans in our cultural awareness.
@Brian - why be bummed? It's just someone's opinion. There are snobs everywhere. I've had enough people scoff at me for all kinds of dumb shit - snobbery is just a transient attitude. Besides, the message boards are not the workshops. I found the feedback there very helpful and positive. Overall I think the thread has been about personal preferences moreso than looking down on people for their choices. I enjoy as much trash as anyone, I have my guilty pleasures, but if we're talking about writing, I'd much rather discuss Neal Stephenson than John Grisham.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeDecember 21, 2011 - 11:48pm
Since I learned that you actually can account for taste, I have no guilty pleasures.
postpomo
from Canada is reading words words wordsDecember 21, 2011 - 11:50pm
you do have a point - there's nothing pleasureable about guilt.
aliensoul77
from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall.December 21, 2011 - 11:55pm
@Brian, don't feel bad. I know what you mean. I think sometimes people speak in hyperbole and don't realize the power of their words. I know I often will say things like, "Anyone who reads Twilight is a moron!" but in truth, I have known a lot of smart intelligent people who have read Twilight and enjoyed it then felt like a dick for saying that. I think being writers we can all be snobs and think we are better than so and so or at least have overly strong opinions about things. It's okay to dislike some writers or not like their work but you're right, it's stupid to say, "I have no respect for someone who reads that garbage". However, I think we all stereotype to a certain extent. For instance if we see a woman reading a Harlequin romance novel in public, we assume that she must be lonely or have her head in the clouds when it comes to romance but maybe she just likes them. I will publically admit I have read all of Dean Koontz' books and I know a lot of people don't like him and think he is a second rate Stephen King but it was a tradition I started, my Mom would read them and lend them to me. We also can grow out of writers like I don't enjoy a lot of the same stuff that I did as a teenager.
Yet you are right and don't feel intimidated by submitting to the forum. I personally will read anything in there and give an unbiased review based on the type of writing and the audience it is intended for. For instance, if it's a sci-fi story, it's not my place to go in there and go, "Oh, I hate sci-fi so I'm going to rip on this dude's story". No, I will judge it by other sci-fi pieces I have read. I despise academic snobbery, people who try to build their own "intelligentsia" and think they are superior to other people because they have a college degree. This is why I personally decided not to be an English major but instead pursued psychology. I felt like all the English courses were making me analyze things to death until there was no joy left in fiction but only metaphors and symbolism and foreshadowing. I want to enjoy writing and literature even when it's silly and frivolous. I love genre fiction; fantasy, horror and sci-fi as well as all the authors you mentioned. Don't think we are like that here. Personally I can't stand many of the classics. Just because someone knows what existentialism means doesn't mean a flying fuck in the real world.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeDecember 22, 2011 - 12:05am
Existentialism is like a dirty word these days. I noticed that trend not long after I started reading existentialist literature.
Fylh
from from from is reading is from is reading is reading is reading reading is readingDecember 22, 2011 - 2:00am
@ Brian Ingham:
I must admit that I'm a little upset by this whole topic...I've avoided sites like this for a long long time for multiple reasons, one of them being that I can't stand pompous literary snobs who blast people for their opinions or look down on someone for what they read. Also, how in the fuck do you lose respect for someone because of what they read!? That to me is the most ridiculous thing i have ever read on any website, ever. One of my favorite authors happens to be Bret Easton Ellis, so automatically, before you even meet me or read my work, you lose respect for me? Does that make me less of a writer for liking his work? Does it make me less intelligent than those of you with your noses in the air? I'm baffled by this, truly.
I've highlighted those two passages because they'll show you what I think you're missing here. If for a long time you've avoided "sites like this" because you can't stand pompous literary snobs, etc, then you've already been doing what others are doing: having a set of preferences that exclude some people and dictate how you operate in the book world. If, when you're asking a rhetorical question you imply that some of us have our noses in the air, then you know very well that you're insulting us without actually knowing us, either.
This is what I've been arguing. People look down on others for reading Author X but often can't convincingly articulate the reason for choosing Author A instead. And sometimes I come along and tell them that both of those authors are shitty, and they get all riled up as though it's not okay to tell someone something they don't want to hear.
It is okay. It's okay to like Dan Brown and Will Christopher Baer and Bret Easton Ellis and anyone else. It's fine, and it's up to you, the person who likes their work, to accept that it's fine, or you'll get in a huff anytime someone suggests otherwise.
When we read, we tend to read alone. We enjoy books on our own. It's what happens afterwards, in the social sphere, that makes people insecure. Who cares? Why should anyone convince you of anything? And if they try, why should you let them, when you've enjoyed the books you've enjoyed.
Seriously, these conversations turn hostile without needing to. Too many egos get bruised for no reason.
Raelyn
from California is reading The Liars' ClubDecember 22, 2011 - 3:23am
I owe an apology. Brian, there should be one in your inbox. To everyone else who is an Ellis fan, Danny is correct in saying I was using hyperbole. In no way do I literally disrespect you for your reading preferences. I just cannot grasp why people covet his works. That being said, I'm sure there's plenty of books I read that other people think of as trash. Here's one that you can all make fun of me for: The Lost Art of Keeping Secrets by Eva Rice. I absolutely love that book.
I suppose I just got too comfortable with what I say on the website, and I am truly sorry for causing any offense.
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigDecember 22, 2011 - 3:18am
I think it's amusing to see this group called out for snobbery while at least a few of us have come forward as enjoying Dan Brown (and even a Twilight fan!) and no one has been stoned. And, what's more, I never saw a single person here call anyone unintelligent--that's some serious reading between the lines that tells me you had made your mind up about what this thread said before you read it. Deep breaths, man.
And then, to come in and doubt the honesty of the workshop--did anyone even know what you read until you announced it here? Do you think people are going to be dishonest and bash you for the sake of it because you read Stephen King (I've gotten some really great, insightful reviews and I list him as my favorite author on my profile--I suppose all the literary snobs have failed to look there).
I really don't think anyone said anything wrong. Raelyn overstated, but she clarified. The rest of the complaints in that hissy fit were things that didn't actually happen here.
Fylh
from from from is reading is from is reading is reading is reading reading is readingDecember 22, 2011 - 3:44am
So far I think I'm the only one who's actually called himself a lit-snob. And I haven't tried to trash-talk anyone for any of their reading preferences. In fact, I've made it pretty clear, I think, that even lit-snobs are hypocrites half of the time.
aliensoul77
from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall.December 22, 2011 - 5:59am
See what you started, Phil. Haha
Fylh
from from from is reading is from is reading is reading is reading reading is readingDecember 22, 2011 - 6:01am
I didn't start this thread.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersDecember 22, 2011 - 6:17am
I kind of think everyone is a book snob - everyone who reads that is. Some people are just better at not being an asshole about it. People are going to make judgements, the difference is if they do it out loud, or just in their heads.
aliensoul77
from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall.December 22, 2011 - 6:20am
For instance, I've never read Moby Dick and I have no interest in it. I think the classic Russian novelists are too depressing and it is really hard for me to understand Shakespeare. Judge me!!!
Fylh
from from from is reading is from is reading is reading is reading reading is readingDecember 22, 2011 - 6:26am
If anyone has the time and energy to judge you for that, don't trust them.
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryDecember 22, 2011 - 6:36am
Sweet Christ, no. Phil didn't start this thread of brash comment and sensitivity. I started it. And although it's been fun following everybody down the paths of various literary criticisms and being there for that very touching moment when Danny fondled Phil, these are not the points I was really hoping this thread would highlight. Of course, as the initiator, I can only hold myself responsible for allowing Phil and his wily sophistry to distract me from the main purpose here which is to say this:
Let's face it: most of us want our writing to be popular. We might have some idea in the back of our minds that we'd also like to be the next Fitzgerald, but if someone handed us a check for 100k to write a pulp romance or horror or sci-fi we'd grin and blush and take it and throw a fucking party because our dream of "making it" as a writer is coming true.
It's not important to readers that some of us think that Dan Brown (or any of the others out there that sell a lot of books that we, in general, do not think are very talented) is not a gifted writer. That has no bearing, whatsoever. Here's what's important to us as writers: Dan Brown sells a shitload of books. Stephanie Meyer sells a shitload of books. Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child, same thing. They all threw that party that most of us want to throw. And that should give us hope. That's what this thread is about. It's about hope and a really cheap and easy encouragement I was trying to bestow upon everyone yesterday like confectioner's sugar. Be hopeful and work your ass off, because if those guys that wrote the Left Behind series can clumsily write a story that resonates with 14 billion people, you can too, if that's what you're after. I'm just pointing out that a quote I heard from Ben Stein is right: "The popular talent pool is not as deep as you are led to believe."
Bekanator
from Kamloops, British Columbia is reading Ugly Girls by Lindsay HunterDecember 22, 2011 - 6:56am
I guess I need to apologize....I like to read. Anything that I can get my hands on actually, whether it's Stephen King, Will Christopher Baer, JK Rowling, Bret Easton Ellis, Chuck Palahniuk, Blake Butler, Carlton Mellick 3, Dan Brown, JG Ballard, Stephen Graham Jones, Craig Clevenger, or a cereal box, and I'm literally blown away by the fact that just by announcing that, I'm going to be looked down upon.
This is the thing, Brian. Your list of preferred literate spans every corner, and that's what everybody's reading list should look like. Except you need more erotica.
I just use this to go back to my point, is that people who start reading Dan Brown should also be reading something other than just conspiracy theories. Reading is about expanding your mind, and Dan's only going to get you so far. Granted, Brian is right in that sometimes people read themselves into a corner and refuse to look back.
And sometimes I even of think about picking up an old V.C. Andrews book and living through my teenage nostalgia again. The problem is that I haven't yet.
Arkadia
from Australia is reading Selected Poems by W.H. AudenDecember 22, 2011 - 8:31am
I've highlighted those two passages because they'll show you what I think you're missing here. If for a long time you've avoided "sites like this" because you can't stand pompous literary snobs, etc, then you've already been doing what others are doing: having a set of preferences that exclude some people and dictate how you operate in the book world. If, when you're asking a rhetorical question you imply that some of us have our noses in the air, then you know very well that you're insulting us without actually knowing us, either.
Thank you, Phil, for typing that up so I didn't have to. My thoughts exactly.
This is the internet. Hyperbole is rampant. Take nothing anyone says seriously, unless it makes you feel good about yourself.
It's silly to judge an entire community based on some passing remarks by a few members of it. Other people's opinions are no more or less important than yours.
Number one suggestion for becoming a successful writer and workshopper: grow a thicker skin. Don't worry about what the 'lit snobs' say or don't say (although I prefer to hear from the 'lit snobs' personally, they do tend to know their stuff better than Average Joe).
Listen to everyone's perspectives, no matter what you think of that person or perspective. Everyone is a potential reader. Everyone's thoughts are relevant in their own way.
Again, I'm with Phil on the 'don't really think about the shitty authors' page. I'm pretty apathetic toward successful authors whose work I don't envy. Writing well is like climbing a mountain: works better if you don't look down.
My opinion, anyway. No better or worse or more valid or invalid than anyone elses, I like to think.
.
December 22, 2011 - 8:57am
Why isn't this discussion about James Patterson. John Grisham? Or some other author that I'll never read. For me these authors are like Steig Larrson. I don't buy books that you can find at Wal-Mart. People who buy books from Wal-Mart probably skimmed through their English classes with "C's" the grade, not the c-word. But I'm just a book snob. Although I'm probably one of the worse types- the kind that doesn't back his reasoning up by actually reading one of these books.
Oh also, I think Harry Potter falls into the same category for me.
Brian Ingham
from Stillwater Oklahoma is reading There is No Year by. Blake ButlerDecember 22, 2011 - 12:27pm
@Raelyn-There is really no need for an apology at all. I was a little thrown off by what i saw as a general concensus. I understand your use of hyperbole and took it a little too much to heart for some odd reason. So again, I respect the apology, but in all honesty there is no need for it at all. I'm generally a pretty thick skinned person so I'm not too sure why I took that so literal. I also shouldn't have grouped everyone together in the same category when I refered to this board, because my comments were not directed towards everyone obviously. So for that, I owe you the apology, not vice versa.
@Renee- Everything I stated happened here. I may have taken it a bit far with the "intelligence" part seeing as how it wouldn't be a shot at my intelligence, just my taste. But saying that I had a hissy fit would be the same as me saying you had a hissy fit, all I did was post my opinion based on what i saw, same as you did. . But yes, I misconstrued a few of the comments I read, and for that I do apologize. Deep breaths young lady.
At least people on this board care enough to read and respond to what I said by clearing the air, for which I'm grateful. Don't know why I was so taken aback by the comments, like I said, I'm not usually one to complain or argue ones opinion, especially on a message board. If there is an "argument"(discussion) in the future like this, I will make sure to participate with more tact.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.December 22, 2011 - 12:32pm
We're all assholes.
Chester Pane
from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot DiazDecember 22, 2011 - 12:51pm
Rebecca Wrote:
This is the thing, Brian. Your list of preferred literate spans every corner, and that's what everybody's reading list should look like. Except you need more erotica.
Yeah, I'll say. Blake Butler to J.K. Rowling. I think we might be soul mates Brian.
Read every fucking thing people. Genre Snobs are the skinheads of the reading world. Sink your eyes into all of it. The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.
@Dakota: Do you have any fucking idea how many fucking readers J.K. Rowling has created? Any idea? And if you haven't read her books you might want to. They are very well-written to their target age group. So well in fact that they've also managed to blow the sails off that readership.
Pardon in advance for the following gasconade:
My boys are teens now, one is an adult on the verge of his twenties. I began reading to them when they were infants and toddlers. Along with Roald Dahl, John Dennis Fitzgerald (The Great Brain), Shel Silverstein, Eoin Colfer, and numerous others, we read Harry Potter when it hit the shelves. And the boys loved it. They loved it so much that they began reading it themselves. Romain was five. Both of them continue to read a lot. Sachs is fifteen now, but back then he quickly moved from Potter to The Lord of The Flies. And he hasn't looked back. He devours literature, plain and simple. He burned through the Twilight Series only to turn around and Burn through The Hunger Games.
I'll come home with a new title thinking I'd forgot it at the store or misplaced it. After tearing the house apart it will dawn on me. Sachs. I better see if he booksnatched again. Sure enough, following a sometimes rigorous search, I discover he does indeed have my copy of Lean on Pete, How to Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe or Wildwood. Dog ears and all.
And I fucking love that. Someone else made this point earlier, but to reiterate: Whether or not you personally like a particular writer doesn't fucking matter. The fact is if people enjoy reading that work, then that is a huge victory for reading and writing in general. Those works create readers. Some of those readers will evolve and pursue more challenging work. Some won't and that is fine. At least they aren't staring like zombies at television for hours on end as their brain cells atrophy.
Now back to the other part of Rebecca's comment, can we get back to the cunt discussion for Santa's sake:
Brian Ingham
from Stillwater Oklahoma is reading There is No Year by. Blake ButlerDecember 22, 2011 - 12:45pm
Again, my apologies for getting us so off topic. Back to the task at hand....
Roald Dahl, John Dennis Fitzgerald, Shel Silverstein, Eoin Colfer--wow, I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I completely forgot about these authors. I may have to go back and read them again, relive my childhood a little.
aliensoul77
from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall.December 22, 2011 - 12:48pm
Wow, Chester, how old are you? No offense but when you said you had a son in your 20s.
@Bekanator--haha. Oh, the VC andrews days, before that new ghost writer took over. I love how brother sister incest has beem marketed to teenage girls for years now. Those books are very strange but fun. I still like the cheesy but incest lite movie they did of it.
Chester Pane
from Portland, Oregon is reading The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao by Junot DiazDecember 22, 2011 - 12:49pm
My goal has always been to never grow up.
Shit, Colfer's syntax is quite befuddling considering Artemis Fowl's target audience is nine and up.
.
December 22, 2011 - 1:30pm
@Chet Mix
I'm strictly speaking of the "I only read Harry Potter and Twilight books" group. They exist. They don't like reading but they will read those books for some reason. I Harry Potter is overrated. I haven't read Rowling's books but I have no qualms with her or her writing. I don't like the fans that it attracts though. I dated a girl and found out she had a Harry Potter broom in her closet. They are creepy fans.
A lot of good books are overrated though. Ulysses. Naked Lunch.
Well the list goes on. Joyce and Burroughs probably have their own creepy fan club, I'm in the Burroughs one in fact. The problem with Harry Potter is that these fans get a crush on the actors too and lose sight of the literary merit. Some people do, not all of them. They go to the movies dressed as the characters and I just can't stand the site of them.
I like it when books inspire kids to read but that argument is a two sided knife. Twilight for example. Got a lot of people to read, but what did they learn from Twilight? All that did was make them choose between team Edward and Jacob.
My cousin reads Harry Potter books. She wants a Kindle for Christmas. Hell she's probably smarter than me and she's like 10 or something. I'm going to give her The Great Gatsby to read for Christmas. If she doesn't like it, than she loses all credibility with her reading with me.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersDecember 22, 2011 - 1:41pm
Jacks - she's TEN. GIve her a break! She isn't supposed to like The Great Gatsby at ten years old.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.December 22, 2011 - 1:42pm
Cousin: While I find The Great Gatsby to be an inspired piece of work that predicts accurately the growing infatuation with celebrity for celebrities-sake, I don't think it speaks as well to a generation that grew up with constant media attention and overstimulation of that so-called uppperclass faux-famous mentality. I just wasn't that into it.
Jacks_username: You're dead to me.
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryDecember 22, 2011 - 1:55pm
LOL.
aliensoul77
from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall.December 22, 2011 - 2:01pm
Jack, don't be a tool. You lost credibility with me for saying that about a 10 year old. Haha
Give her a Nietzche book too while you're at it.
postpomo
from Canada is reading words words wordsDecember 22, 2011 - 2:16pm
I tried re-reading Gatsby a couple of months ago - couldn't get past the second chapter. Talk about overrated. ;)
.
December 22, 2011 - 2:24pm
Maybe reading Nietzche when I was 16 darkened my view of the world. And high school.
Fine, I won't make her read Gatsby but the rest of my family is getting books. No excuse for them not to read. Hell I'd be happy if they even read a Harry Potter book. You guys are just secret Potter fan boys with brooms in your closets.
What about all those private school kids, don't they start on the classics early?
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryDecember 22, 2011 - 2:26pm
No, they just get faster, more expensive brooms.
.
December 22, 2011 - 2:28pm
I'm jealous of her money. There. There it is. I wish I wrote Harry Potter.
aliensoul77
from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall.December 22, 2011 - 2:28pm
Classic books that still hold up for me since high school: Catcher in the Rye, Animal Farm, 1984, A Seperate Peace, Black Boy, East of Eden and Grapes of Wrath.
.
December 22, 2011 - 2:30pm
I haven't got through the Inferno yet but I did like Catcher in Eye. I downloaded Ulysses on my Kindle too. Probably never get around to reading it though.
aliensoul77
from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall.December 22, 2011 - 2:31pm
Let's send a death-eater after Dakota.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersDecember 22, 2011 - 2:32pm
I think I still love every classic I read in high school. I haven't actually changed that much in the last 11 years.
Wait, you know what I didn't like - The Scarlet Letter. Not then. I should try it again maybe. But I probably won't.
aliensoul77
from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall.December 22, 2011 - 2:32pm
Vonnegut is also great and if you like sci-fi, Philip K. Dick.
.
December 22, 2011 - 2:34pm
Bring it!
aliensoul77
from a cold distant star is reading the writing on the wall.December 22, 2011 - 2:35pm
Scarlet Letter is so damn Victorian. I hate all that religious guilt crap. The older I get, the more I hate the Catholic Church and how they stunted humanity for 100's of years.
Moderator
Utah
from Fort Worth, TX is reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtryDecember 22, 2011 - 2:35pm
I give a big fat raspberry to the scarlet letter. Didn't like waiting for godot, either. Or that mayor of casterbridge crap.
Apple-faced dolly :p
At least you didn't call me a c...
How ironic that a post that I almost said the C-word in got me the Wordsmith scab.
On the subject of all the Brown's and Meyer's out there:
I just love the fact that millions and millions and millions and millions...even billions of dollars can be generated with a book.
Good or not, there's something phenomenal going on there.
On that note, has anyone read The Millenium Series? I've heard both good and bad. Well at least if it's shit, there won't be anymore from Stieg.
I read the Millenium - the first two are OK for what they are. If you like those don't read the third one. It wasn't finished. He forgot to add the suspense. I don't get why that story got so much attention. I guess Stieg's life & death story helped to create a buzz.
Yeah I'm going to get slammed for this but oh bell.*
I know that many people who love books get caught up in word forms and obscure authors, than end up looking down on most readers saying, "Oh if that crap can be popular I know I can!" But I think that we miss the point that most popular authors have in common, namely they tell a story, a naritive with a beginning, middle, and end (sometimes in cycle form). I don't know if it's a basic human trait or something that only comes from English speaking cultures but look at the popular art forms and unpopular.
Paintings, most classical music, sculpture, and most poetry don't tend to tell a story.
Comic books, most comedians, movies, television, most pop music, most religious music, novels, and short stories. The only exceptions to this would be plays and tattoos.
These folks SUCK horribly at the medium they have choice, but they understand (or at least have a powerful ability to use) the more basic tool of storytelling. And really all most folks care about is the story.
*for the record I say oh bell on purpose.
@Dwayne - the only thing I feel compelled to slam you about is saying "oh bell" on purpose. that's just messed up right there ;)
I disagree though, that painting, photography, sculpture, classical music all tell a story. They just don't tell it using words (most of the time), but do it using images. The images, whether made with pigment, sound or language communicate something to us. Sometimes it's a story. sometimes it's a single moment that suggests the rest of the story.
I'm being literal, not mean here but I'd say you mistaken about the meaning of the word.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/story
a : a fictional narrative shorter than a novel; specifically : short story
b : the intrigue or plot of a narrative or dramatic work
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/narrated
: to tell (as a story) in detail; also : to provide spoken commentary for (as a movie or television show)
If there isn't a narrative, if there isn't telling it might be art but it isn't a story. Those other forms might IMPLY a story, feeling, or mood but that do not come out and tell one.
gotcha - well, the word 'story' has a rather elastic application, but I get your point.
two of the most popular genres in their forms (in terms of $$$) are pop music & romance novels. Doesn't matter if it's popular or not, that stuff is lacking in longevity. These aren't works that we're going to be regaling each other with in another in three years, let alone in a century.
Bach & Chaucer can't compete with modern sales, but they have lasted an awfully long time. I don't think we can say that about those books Fabio was on the cover of, or that song I heard on the radio.
And Dan Brown is no Herman Melville (whom i haven't read, akshully).
I’m not taking up for is and isn’t popular just making an observation. And change is impossible without understanding the situation you find yourself in. Tthe vast majority of popular art includes an easy to follow/sum up narrative. It can be a great well done complicated narrative, but it seems to have to fall in those guidelines. Beginning, middle, end, easy to follow. I'm not saying everything with a powerful story will become popular, but it does seem to be a requirement for a piece to get even a strong cult following.
And despite a lack of longevity they still tell a story. That combined with some marketing makes the popular even if the way the story is told is just horrible.
I understand that as someone who wants to write something deep and touching trying to understand why the Twilight books are popular is like trying to understand why someone would Jeffrey Dahmer raped, killed, and ate men. Still like a FBI agent who tries to hunt serial killers that is part of the job, like it or not. Joyce Meyer's method is one of the worst I've ever seen, the main character is a girl who can't make up her mind between necrophilia and bestiality. But it also deals with the fear of being alone, a universal human theme. People don't read because of the horrible plot, they read because of a mix of marketing and the reassurance of the story. Bella found love, I can too.
And Herman Melville told a story.
Wow...just reading this thread has really bummed me out.
I love to read...always have, always will. I try to change up my selection as much as possible, read new authors, read books that I have never heard of, read genres that im not used to, etc. As writers, shouldn't we all do that?
I must admit that I'm a little upset by this whole topic...I've avoided sites like this for a long long time for multiple reasons, one of them being that I can't stand pompous literary snobs who blast people for their opinions or look down on someone for what they read. Also, how in the fuck do you lose respect for someone because of what they read!? That to me is the most ridiculous thing i have ever read on any website, ever. One of my favorite authors happens to be Bret Easton Ellis, so automatically, before you even meet me or read my work, you lose respect for me? Does that make me less of a writer for liking his work? Does it make me less intelligent than those of you with your noses in the air? I'm baffled by this, truly.
I guess I need to apologize....I like to read. Anything that I can get my hands on actually, whether it's Stephen King, Will Christopher Baer, JK Rowling, Bret Easton Ellis, Chuck Palahniuk, Blake Butler, Carlton Mellick 3, Dan Brown, JG Ballard, Stephen Graham Jones, Craig Clevenger, or a cereal box, and I'm literally blown away by the fact that just by announcing that, I'm going to be looked down upon. This thread is the epitome of pompous literary bs, and I really hope not everyone on this board is that shortsighted. I'm less than a year away from getting my doctorette yet apparently I'm unintelligent bc of what I choose to read, and disrespected for what I enjoy.
I have a lot of work I'd like to post in the Writers Workshop, and I was really looking forward to getting positive feedback from people who actually care. I was excited to read everyone else's stories and try to help out as much as I possibly could, but now...I'm a little hesitant. I've basically already been told that I'm not as respected as the rest of you because of what I read...I just hope there are people mature enough to give constructive criticism and not hold something so trivial against me.
@Dwayne - I agree - these examples tell a story, all too often it's the same story we've heard lots and lots and lots, which is okay, since it's a good story. I was adding that stories that resonate with more depth tend to have longer lifespans in our cultural awareness.
@Brian - why be bummed? It's just someone's opinion. There are snobs everywhere. I've had enough people scoff at me for all kinds of dumb shit - snobbery is just a transient attitude. Besides, the message boards are not the workshops. I found the feedback there very helpful and positive. Overall I think the thread has been about personal preferences moreso than looking down on people for their choices. I enjoy as much trash as anyone, I have my guilty pleasures, but if we're talking about writing, I'd much rather discuss Neal Stephenson than John Grisham.
Since I learned that you actually can account for taste, I have no guilty pleasures.
you do have a point - there's nothing pleasureable about guilt.
@Brian, don't feel bad. I know what you mean. I think sometimes people speak in hyperbole and don't realize the power of their words. I know I often will say things like, "Anyone who reads Twilight is a moron!" but in truth, I have known a lot of smart intelligent people who have read Twilight and enjoyed it then felt like a dick for saying that. I think being writers we can all be snobs and think we are better than so and so or at least have overly strong opinions about things. It's okay to dislike some writers or not like their work but you're right, it's stupid to say, "I have no respect for someone who reads that garbage". However, I think we all stereotype to a certain extent. For instance if we see a woman reading a Harlequin romance novel in public, we assume that she must be lonely or have her head in the clouds when it comes to romance but maybe she just likes them. I will publically admit I have read all of Dean Koontz' books and I know a lot of people don't like him and think he is a second rate Stephen King but it was a tradition I started, my Mom would read them and lend them to me. We also can grow out of writers like I don't enjoy a lot of the same stuff that I did as a teenager.
Yet you are right and don't feel intimidated by submitting to the forum. I personally will read anything in there and give an unbiased review based on the type of writing and the audience it is intended for. For instance, if it's a sci-fi story, it's not my place to go in there and go, "Oh, I hate sci-fi so I'm going to rip on this dude's story". No, I will judge it by other sci-fi pieces I have read. I despise academic snobbery, people who try to build their own "intelligentsia" and think they are superior to other people because they have a college degree. This is why I personally decided not to be an English major but instead pursued psychology. I felt like all the English courses were making me analyze things to death until there was no joy left in fiction but only metaphors and symbolism and foreshadowing. I want to enjoy writing and literature even when it's silly and frivolous. I love genre fiction; fantasy, horror and sci-fi as well as all the authors you mentioned. Don't think we are like that here. Personally I can't stand many of the classics. Just because someone knows what existentialism means doesn't mean a flying fuck in the real world.
Existentialism is like a dirty word these days. I noticed that trend not long after I started reading existentialist literature.
@ Brian Ingham:
I've highlighted those two passages because they'll show you what I think you're missing here. If for a long time you've avoided "sites like this" because you can't stand pompous literary snobs, etc, then you've already been doing what others are doing: having a set of preferences that exclude some people and dictate how you operate in the book world. If, when you're asking a rhetorical question you imply that some of us have our noses in the air, then you know very well that you're insulting us without actually knowing us, either.
This is what I've been arguing. People look down on others for reading Author X but often can't convincingly articulate the reason for choosing Author A instead. And sometimes I come along and tell them that both of those authors are shitty, and they get all riled up as though it's not okay to tell someone something they don't want to hear.
It is okay. It's okay to like Dan Brown and Will Christopher Baer and Bret Easton Ellis and anyone else. It's fine, and it's up to you, the person who likes their work, to accept that it's fine, or you'll get in a huff anytime someone suggests otherwise.
When we read, we tend to read alone. We enjoy books on our own. It's what happens afterwards, in the social sphere, that makes people insecure. Who cares? Why should anyone convince you of anything? And if they try, why should you let them, when you've enjoyed the books you've enjoyed.
Seriously, these conversations turn hostile without needing to. Too many egos get bruised for no reason.
I owe an apology. Brian, there should be one in your inbox. To everyone else who is an Ellis fan, Danny is correct in saying I was using hyperbole. In no way do I literally disrespect you for your reading preferences. I just cannot grasp why people covet his works. That being said, I'm sure there's plenty of books I read that other people think of as trash. Here's one that you can all make fun of me for: The Lost Art of Keeping Secrets by Eva Rice. I absolutely love that book.
I suppose I just got too comfortable with what I say on the website, and I am truly sorry for causing any offense.
I think it's amusing to see this group called out for snobbery while at least a few of us have come forward as enjoying Dan Brown (and even a Twilight fan!) and no one has been stoned. And, what's more, I never saw a single person here call anyone unintelligent--that's some serious reading between the lines that tells me you had made your mind up about what this thread said before you read it. Deep breaths, man.
And then, to come in and doubt the honesty of the workshop--did anyone even know what you read until you announced it here? Do you think people are going to be dishonest and bash you for the sake of it because you read Stephen King (I've gotten some really great, insightful reviews and I list him as my favorite author on my profile--I suppose all the literary snobs have failed to look there).
I really don't think anyone said anything wrong. Raelyn overstated, but she clarified. The rest of the complaints in that hissy fit were things that didn't actually happen here.
So far I think I'm the only one who's actually called himself a lit-snob. And I haven't tried to trash-talk anyone for any of their reading preferences. In fact, I've made it pretty clear, I think, that even lit-snobs are hypocrites half of the time.
See what you started, Phil. Haha
I didn't start this thread.
I kind of think everyone is a book snob - everyone who reads that is. Some people are just better at not being an asshole about it. People are going to make judgements, the difference is if they do it out loud, or just in their heads.
For instance, I've never read Moby Dick and I have no interest in it. I think the classic Russian novelists are too depressing and it is really hard for me to understand Shakespeare. Judge me!!!
If anyone has the time and energy to judge you for that, don't trust them.
Sweet Christ, no. Phil didn't start this thread of brash comment and sensitivity. I started it. And although it's been fun following everybody down the paths of various literary criticisms and being there for that very touching moment when Danny fondled Phil, these are not the points I was really hoping this thread would highlight. Of course, as the initiator, I can only hold myself responsible for allowing Phil and his wily sophistry to distract me from the main purpose here which is to say this:
Let's face it: most of us want our writing to be popular. We might have some idea in the back of our minds that we'd also like to be the next Fitzgerald, but if someone handed us a check for 100k to write a pulp romance or horror or sci-fi we'd grin and blush and take it and throw a fucking party because our dream of "making it" as a writer is coming true.
It's not important to readers that some of us think that Dan Brown (or any of the others out there that sell a lot of books that we, in general, do not think are very talented) is not a gifted writer. That has no bearing, whatsoever. Here's what's important to us as writers: Dan Brown sells a shitload of books. Stephanie Meyer sells a shitload of books. Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child, same thing. They all threw that party that most of us want to throw. And that should give us hope. That's what this thread is about. It's about hope and a really cheap and easy encouragement I was trying to bestow upon everyone yesterday like confectioner's sugar. Be hopeful and work your ass off, because if those guys that wrote the Left Behind series can clumsily write a story that resonates with 14 billion people, you can too, if that's what you're after. I'm just pointing out that a quote I heard from Ben Stein is right: "The popular talent pool is not as deep as you are led to believe."
This is the thing, Brian. Your list of preferred literate spans every corner, and that's what everybody's reading list should look like. Except you need more erotica.
I just use this to go back to my point, is that people who start reading Dan Brown should also be reading something other than just conspiracy theories. Reading is about expanding your mind, and Dan's only going to get you so far. Granted, Brian is right in that sometimes people read themselves into a corner and refuse to look back.
And sometimes I even of think about picking up an old V.C. Andrews book and living through my teenage nostalgia again. The problem is that I haven't yet.
Why isn't this discussion about James Patterson. John Grisham? Or some other author that I'll never read. For me these authors are like Steig Larrson. I don't buy books that you can find at Wal-Mart. People who buy books from Wal-Mart probably skimmed through their English classes with "C's" the grade, not the c-word. But I'm just a book snob. Although I'm probably one of the worse types- the kind that doesn't back his reasoning up by actually reading one of these books.
Oh also, I think Harry Potter falls into the same category for me.
@Raelyn-There is really no need for an apology at all. I was a little thrown off by what i saw as a general concensus. I understand your use of hyperbole and took it a little too much to heart for some odd reason. So again, I respect the apology, but in all honesty there is no need for it at all. I'm generally a pretty thick skinned person so I'm not too sure why I took that so literal. I also shouldn't have grouped everyone together in the same category when I refered to this board, because my comments were not directed towards everyone obviously. So for that, I owe you the apology, not vice versa.
@Renee- Everything I stated happened here. I may have taken it a bit far with the "intelligence" part seeing as how it wouldn't be a shot at my intelligence, just my taste. But saying that I had a hissy fit would be the same as me saying you had a hissy fit, all I did was post my opinion based on what i saw, same as you did. . But yes, I misconstrued a few of the comments I read, and for that I do apologize. Deep breaths young lady.
At least people on this board care enough to read and respond to what I said by clearing the air, for which I'm grateful. Don't know why I was so taken aback by the comments, like I said, I'm not usually one to complain or argue ones opinion, especially on a message board. If there is an "argument"(discussion) in the future like this, I will make sure to participate with more tact.
We're all assholes.
Rebecca Wrote:
This is the thing, Brian. Your list of preferred literate spans every corner, and that's what everybody's reading list should look like. Except you need more erotica.
Yeah, I'll say. Blake Butler to J.K. Rowling. I think we might be soul mates Brian.
Read every fucking thing people. Genre Snobs are the skinheads of the reading world. Sink your eyes into all of it. The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.
@Dakota: Do you have any fucking idea how many fucking readers J.K. Rowling has created? Any idea? And if you haven't read her books you might want to. They are very well-written to their target age group. So well in fact that they've also managed to blow the sails off that readership.
Pardon in advance for the following gasconade:
My boys are teens now, one is an adult on the verge of his twenties. I began reading to them when they were infants and toddlers. Along with Roald Dahl, John Dennis Fitzgerald (The Great Brain), Shel Silverstein, Eoin Colfer, and numerous others, we read Harry Potter when it hit the shelves. And the boys loved it. They loved it so much that they began reading it themselves. Romain was five. Both of them continue to read a lot. Sachs is fifteen now, but back then he quickly moved from Potter to The Lord of The Flies. And he hasn't looked back. He devours literature, plain and simple. He burned through the Twilight Series only to turn around and Burn through The Hunger Games.
I'll come home with a new title thinking I'd forgot it at the store or misplaced it. After tearing the house apart it will dawn on me. Sachs. I better see if he booksnatched again. Sure enough, following a sometimes rigorous search, I discover he does indeed have my copy of Lean on Pete, How to Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe or Wildwood. Dog ears and all.
And I fucking love that. Someone else made this point earlier, but to reiterate: Whether or not you personally like a particular writer doesn't fucking matter. The fact is if people enjoy reading that work, then that is a huge victory for reading and writing in general. Those works create readers. Some of those readers will evolve and pursue more challenging work. Some won't and that is fine. At least they aren't staring like zombies at television for hours on end as their brain cells atrophy.
Now back to the other part of Rebecca's comment, can we get back to the cunt discussion for Santa's sake:
NSFW: Pulchritude
*Careful in there. Tumbling can result in...
Again, my apologies for getting us so off topic. Back to the task at hand....
Roald Dahl, John Dennis Fitzgerald, Shel Silverstein, Eoin Colfer--wow, I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I completely forgot about these authors. I may have to go back and read them again, relive my childhood a little.
Wow, Chester, how old are you? No offense but when you said you had a son in your 20s.
@Bekanator--haha. Oh, the VC andrews days, before that new ghost writer took over. I love how brother sister incest has beem marketed to teenage girls for years now. Those books are very strange but fun. I still like the cheesy but incest lite movie they did of it.
My goal has always been to never grow up.
Shit, Colfer's syntax is quite befuddling considering Artemis Fowl's target audience is nine and up.
@Chet Mix
I'm strictly speaking of the "I only read Harry Potter and Twilight books" group. They exist. They don't like reading but they will read those books for some reason. I Harry Potter is overrated. I haven't read Rowling's books but I have no qualms with her or her writing. I don't like the fans that it attracts though. I dated a girl and found out she had a Harry Potter broom in her closet. They are creepy fans.
A lot of good books are overrated though. Ulysses. Naked Lunch.
Well the list goes on. Joyce and Burroughs probably have their own creepy fan club, I'm in the Burroughs one in fact. The problem with Harry Potter is that these fans get a crush on the actors too and lose sight of the literary merit. Some people do, not all of them. They go to the movies dressed as the characters and I just can't stand the site of them.
I like it when books inspire kids to read but that argument is a two sided knife. Twilight for example. Got a lot of people to read, but what did they learn from Twilight? All that did was make them choose between team Edward and Jacob.
My cousin reads Harry Potter books. She wants a Kindle for Christmas. Hell she's probably smarter than me and she's like 10 or something. I'm going to give her The Great Gatsby to read for Christmas. If she doesn't like it, than she loses all credibility with her reading with me.
Jacks - she's TEN. GIve her a break! She isn't supposed to like The Great Gatsby at ten years old.
Cousin: While I find The Great Gatsby to be an inspired piece of work that predicts accurately the growing infatuation with celebrity for celebrities-sake, I don't think it speaks as well to a generation that grew up with constant media attention and overstimulation of that so-called uppperclass faux-famous mentality. I just wasn't that into it.
Jacks_username: You're dead to me.
LOL.
Jack, don't be a tool. You lost credibility with me for saying that about a 10 year old. Haha
Give her a Nietzche book too while you're at it.
I tried re-reading Gatsby a couple of months ago - couldn't get past the second chapter. Talk about overrated. ;)
Maybe reading Nietzche when I was 16 darkened my view of the world. And high school.
Fine, I won't make her read Gatsby but the rest of my family is getting books. No excuse for them not to read. Hell I'd be happy if they even read a Harry Potter book. You guys are just secret Potter fan boys with brooms in your closets.
What about all those private school kids, don't they start on the classics early?
No, they just get faster, more expensive brooms.
I'm jealous of her money. There. There it is. I wish I wrote Harry Potter.
Classic books that still hold up for me since high school: Catcher in the Rye, Animal Farm, 1984, A Seperate Peace, Black Boy, East of Eden and Grapes of Wrath.
I haven't got through the Inferno yet but I did like Catcher in Eye. I downloaded Ulysses on my Kindle too. Probably never get around to reading it though.
Let's send a death-eater after Dakota.
I think I still love every classic I read in high school. I haven't actually changed that much in the last 11 years.
Wait, you know what I didn't like - The Scarlet Letter. Not then. I should try it again maybe. But I probably won't.
Vonnegut is also great and if you like sci-fi, Philip K. Dick.
Bring it!
Scarlet Letter is so damn Victorian. I hate all that religious guilt crap. The older I get, the more I hate the Catholic Church and how they stunted humanity for 100's of years.
I give a big fat raspberry to the scarlet letter. Didn't like waiting for godot, either. Or that mayor of casterbridge crap.