avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersAugust 28, 2012 - 9:49am
Okay. What you said was, "The word and the idea are not the same, I know; but if the idea to which the word refers is undefinable, so is the word."
Which I guess I don't understand. As I said, it's like heaven. The word can be defined, but the idea really can't, because it is different for everyone. And so is art.
Or maybe I just don't know what anyone is talking about.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 9:51am
Unless the definition works for every single unique "idea" of what it is, either it's not an adequate definition or someone's "idea" is incorrect.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersAugust 28, 2012 - 9:55am
"Unless the definition works for every single unique "idea" of what it is, either it's not an adequate definition or someone's "idea" is incorrect."
I think you're trolling.
There is no way to create a definition for something that will work for every single unique idea. And there is no way to call someone's idea of something intangible incorrect. I mean, you can. But you'd be wrong in doing so.
Stacy Kear
from Bucyrus, Ohio lives in New Jersey is reading The Art of War August 28, 2012 - 9:55am
Don't get sucked in Avery. I'm holding out my hand for you to grab, just say your ass is art.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersAugust 28, 2012 - 9:58am
But, my ass isn't art.
I'm so lost.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 10:00am
I promise I am not trolling.
If an idea cannot be wrong, then I can't be wrong to call it wrong. Right and wrong are intangible ideas themselves. It might be fruitless to call it wrong, but not wrong.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 10:02am
That's a stretch, I admit. But the point is: if something can be "right" then the opposite can be "wrong." So, if someone's "idea" is "right" then someone else's can be "wrong."
Stacy Kear
from Bucyrus, Ohio lives in New Jersey is reading The Art of War August 28, 2012 - 10:02am
It's as meaningless as most of this conversation, so you might as well throw it in the mix. I will add artistic merit to your ass by admiring it, so there. Nothing cleared up at all.
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigAugust 28, 2012 - 10:04am
Unless the idea is that art is subjective and means different things to different people.
You're trying to break a rainbow into black and white here. If there is no right answer, there is also no wrong answer. You are the only person that seems intent on there being a right answer. Everyone else seems to accept that art is subjective.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakAugust 28, 2012 - 10:04am
"If an idea cannot be wrong, then I can't be wrong to call it wrong. Right and wrong are intangible ideas themselves. It might be fruitless to call it wrong, but not wrong."
Hey, weird request. Can you recite that word-for-word to someone and record their reaction with your phone or something?
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 10:06am
Haha!
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 10:06am
I'm a real Rumsfeld.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakAugust 28, 2012 - 10:07am
I'm not kidding. I actually want to see what their face does. Do it while their eating and see if they choke on their panini.
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigAugust 28, 2012 - 10:08am
No really, JY. Do it.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 10:08am
Buy me a phone.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersAugust 28, 2012 - 10:08am
"If an idea cannot be wrong, then I can't be wrong to call it wrong. Right and wrong are intangible ideas themselves. It might be fruitless to call it wrong, but not wrong."
If can suss out this riddle, what do I win?
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigAugust 28, 2012 - 10:09am
I like it when Brandon comes to the forums.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakAugust 28, 2012 - 10:10am
I like watching you guys get all worked up. It's adorable.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 10:10am
I get it; it's a goofy statement. But it's no sillier than calling everything subjective and then calling it a day.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersAugust 28, 2012 - 10:12am
Everything isn't subjective. Just art, heaven, right, and wrong. Probably other stuff too. That's just what we came up with just now.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakAugust 28, 2012 - 10:13am
Seriously, will you please go and say that to a person and then tell us what their face does? I think whatever their face does will be art.
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigAugust 28, 2012 - 10:16am
Everything is not subjective. You're the only one who seems to want to talk in absolutes.
I mean... what does it mean if everyone is crazy and you're the only one who's sane?
Class Facilitator
ReneeAPickup
from Southern California is reading Wanderers by Chuck WendigAugust 28, 2012 - 10:16am
Avery--Hell, too.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.August 28, 2012 - 10:18am
The definition was really put into my hypothetical mouth. Art has nipples. That's the defintion I'm sticking with.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 10:24am
In all seriousness (and I mean that) it seems we have fundamentally different ways of looking at the world. That's okay with me. But the fact is anytime you accuse me of only wanting to do this or that, you're making an absolute statement (which you might not really believe.)
If you really believe that I can never say someone is wrong about something which is subjective, you misunderstand that term. (And you're making one of those nasty absolute statements.) The fact that we sometimes derive meaning based on our perspective does not mean we cannot be wrong. If anything, it means we can most definitely be wrong.
I can only see half the moon from the earth. That doesn't give me the right to say whatever I want about the other half. I can say whatever I feel like; I can also be wrong about it. Yes?
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 10:26am
Moon analogy should not be taken literally.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersAugust 28, 2012 - 10:32am
Okay - I think I get this...
I can SAY that heaven is a bowl of mac and cheese. It might not be. I could be WRONG about that. And it would be okay for you to call me wrong. Even though you actually don't know the right answer either.
Am I close???
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakAugust 28, 2012 - 10:34am
"I can SAY that heaven is a bowl of mac and cheese."
If it was heaven, the mac and cheese would have lobster in it like they do at The Bristol.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersAugust 28, 2012 - 10:36am
In my perception, it does. But that might be wrong. I'm waiting for JY to tell me. He seems to know.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 10:46am
If you know you're not right, you shouldn't say it's m&c.
If you really believe it's m&c, I guess you should say so.
And if I really believe it's not, shouldn't I also say what I believe?
Why would unprovable positive statements get protection but not unprovable negative statements?
If I offer a contradictory unprovable positive statement, how is that fundamentally different from saying I think your belief is wrong?
Unless heaven can (in reality) actually be both m&c and something completely unlike m&c, we cannot both be right.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 10:48am
Later.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersAugust 28, 2012 - 10:46am
Right - but isn't what I said the same as what you are saying? In the mac and cheese example?
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 10:48am
*errrrgh*
Didn't you say I shouldn't tell people they're wrong?
And there is no way to call someone's idea of something intangible incorrect. I mean, you can. But you'd be wrong in doing so.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 10:51am
Seriously, I'm out.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakAugust 28, 2012 - 10:53am
You're quitting? WTF?
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersAugust 28, 2012 - 10:55am
I'm about to punch someone in the throat.
Me say: I can SAY that heaven is a bowl of mac and cheese. It might not be. I could be WRONG about that. And it would be okay for you to call me wrong. Even though you actually don't know the right answer either.
You say: a bunch of questions that mean what I said above!!
I am just trying to restate your weird shit in a way that i can understand it, and you are going back to things I said previously. I get it. Leave. YOU'LL BE BACK!
Stacy Kear
from Bucyrus, Ohio lives in New Jersey is reading The Art of War August 28, 2012 - 11:01am
I was wondering when someone would pack up their toys and go home.
bryanhowie
from FW, ID is reading East of Eden. Steinbeck is FUCKING AMAZING.August 28, 2012 - 11:23am
Did nobody get the hint that I want to see some nipples? I mean, come on. It's for art.
Stacy Kear
from Bucyrus, Ohio lives in New Jersey is reading The Art of War August 28, 2012 - 11:31am
Hey X ~ do a solid and show the man some nipple
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 1:58pm
[RE: me saying "I'm out" -- I had stuff to do. But it's nice to know you care (not really.)]
You can't accurately restate my "weird shit" if you don't understand it.
Tell me what is unclear and I will attempt to make it clear.
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersAugust 28, 2012 - 2:08pm
So, I didn't get it?
I really thought I had it.
If it isn't that it's okay to claim people are wrong about their subjective opinions then I'm completely lost. I should have known better.
It's okay. I just haven't got the slightest idea what you are trying to tell me.
Without asking questions or using a metaphore, can you please state your opinion in three sentences or less?
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 2:10pm
Opinion on what?
avery of the dead
from Kentucky is reading Cipher SistersAugust 28, 2012 - 2:13pm
Now it makes sense.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 2:14pm
Cop-out! Just say it so there's no chance for me to do it wrong.
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakAugust 28, 2012 - 2:18pm
Wrong is subjective!!
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 2:21pm
Brandon, that's what I'm meant to voice my opinion on? This answer is based on that assumption:
"Wrong" is subject to reality (or, if you prefer, truth.)
Brandon
from KCMO is reading Made to BreakAugust 28, 2012 - 2:24pm
Where's my video, dude? You had your Wendy's Baconator or whatever for lunch and you come back with nothing? You're killin' me.
Stacy Kear
from Bucyrus, Ohio lives in New Jersey is reading The Art of War August 28, 2012 - 2:26pm
Just show Howie some nipple J.Y. and all this will go away.
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 2:30pm
Lol x 2
I'm serious about the phone. Buy me one and I'll bust it out. Bus-station philosophy!
jyh
from VA is reading whatever he feels likeAugust 28, 2012 - 2:31pm
Not really. But I actually don't have the means to record video of myself talking to people and then upload it.
Okay. What you said was, "The word and the idea are not the same, I know; but if the idea to which the word refers is undefinable, so is the word."
Which I guess I don't understand. As I said, it's like heaven. The word can be defined, but the idea really can't, because it is different for everyone. And so is art.
Or maybe I just don't know what anyone is talking about.
Unless the definition works for every single unique "idea" of what it is, either it's not an adequate definition or someone's "idea" is incorrect.
"Unless the definition works for every single unique "idea" of what it is, either it's not an adequate definition or someone's "idea" is incorrect."
I think you're trolling.
There is no way to create a definition for something that will work for every single unique idea. And there is no way to call someone's idea of something intangible incorrect. I mean, you can. But you'd be wrong in doing so.
Don't get sucked in Avery. I'm holding out my hand for you to grab, just say your ass is art.
But, my ass isn't art.
I'm so lost.
I promise I am not trolling.
If an idea cannot be wrong, then I can't be wrong to call it wrong. Right and wrong are intangible ideas themselves. It might be fruitless to call it wrong, but not wrong.
That's a stretch, I admit. But the point is: if something can be "right" then the opposite can be "wrong." So, if someone's "idea" is "right" then someone else's can be "wrong."
It's as meaningless as most of this conversation, so you might as well throw it in the mix. I will add artistic merit to your ass by admiring it, so there. Nothing cleared up at all.
Unless the idea is that art is subjective and means different things to different people.
You're trying to break a rainbow into black and white here. If there is no right answer, there is also no wrong answer. You are the only person that seems intent on there being a right answer. Everyone else seems to accept that art is subjective.
"If an idea cannot be wrong, then I can't be wrong to call it wrong. Right and wrong are intangible ideas themselves. It might be fruitless to call it wrong, but not wrong."
Hey, weird request. Can you recite that word-for-word to someone and record their reaction with your phone or something?
Haha!
I'm a real Rumsfeld.
I'm not kidding. I actually want to see what their face does. Do it while their eating and see if they choke on their panini.
No really, JY. Do it.
Buy me a phone.
"If an idea cannot be wrong, then I can't be wrong to call it wrong. Right and wrong are intangible ideas themselves. It might be fruitless to call it wrong, but not wrong."
If can suss out this riddle, what do I win?
I like it when Brandon comes to the forums.
I like watching you guys get all worked up. It's adorable.
I get it; it's a goofy statement. But it's no sillier than calling everything subjective and then calling it a day.
Everything isn't subjective. Just art, heaven, right, and wrong. Probably other stuff too. That's just what we came up with just now.
Seriously, will you please go and say that to a person and then tell us what their face does? I think whatever their face does will be art.
Everything is not subjective. You're the only one who seems to want to talk in absolutes.
I mean... what does it mean if everyone is crazy and you're the only one who's sane?
Avery--Hell, too.
The definition was really put into my hypothetical mouth. Art has nipples. That's the defintion I'm sticking with.
In all seriousness (and I mean that) it seems we have fundamentally different ways of looking at the world. That's okay with me. But the fact is anytime you accuse me of only wanting to do this or that, you're making an absolute statement (which you might not really believe.)
If you really believe that I can never say someone is wrong about something which is subjective, you misunderstand that term. (And you're making one of those nasty absolute statements.) The fact that we sometimes derive meaning based on our perspective does not mean we cannot be wrong. If anything, it means we can most definitely be wrong.
I can only see half the moon from the earth. That doesn't give me the right to say whatever I want about the other half. I can say whatever I feel like; I can also be wrong about it. Yes?
Moon analogy should not be taken literally.
Okay - I think I get this...
I can SAY that heaven is a bowl of mac and cheese. It might not be. I could be WRONG about that. And it would be okay for you to call me wrong. Even though you actually don't know the right answer either.
Am I close???
"I can SAY that heaven is a bowl of mac and cheese."
If it was heaven, the mac and cheese would have lobster in it like they do at The Bristol.
In my perception, it does. But that might be wrong. I'm waiting for JY to tell me. He seems to know.
If you know you're not right, you shouldn't say it's m&c.
If you really believe it's m&c, I guess you should say so.
And if I really believe it's not, shouldn't I also say what I believe?
Why would unprovable positive statements get protection but not unprovable negative statements?
If I offer a contradictory unprovable positive statement, how is that fundamentally different from saying I think your belief is wrong?
Unless heaven can (in reality) actually be both m&c and something completely unlike m&c, we cannot both be right.
Later.Right - but isn't what I said the same as what you are saying? In the mac and cheese example?
*errrrgh*
Didn't you say I shouldn't tell people they're wrong?
Seriously, I'm out.
You're quitting? WTF?
I'm about to punch someone in the throat.
Me say: I can SAY that heaven is a bowl of mac and cheese. It might not be. I could be WRONG about that. And it would be okay for you to call me wrong. Even though you actually don't know the right answer either.
You say: a bunch of questions that mean what I said above!!
I am just trying to restate your weird shit in a way that i can understand it, and you are going back to things I said previously. I get it. Leave. YOU'LL BE BACK!
I was wondering when someone would pack up their toys and go home.
Did nobody get the hint that I want to see some nipples? I mean, come on. It's for art.
Hey X ~ do a solid and show the man some nipple
[RE: me saying "I'm out" -- I had stuff to do. But it's nice to know you care (not really.)]
You can't accurately restate my "weird shit" if you don't understand it.
Tell me what is unclear and I will attempt to make it clear.
So, I didn't get it?
I really thought I had it.
If it isn't that it's okay to claim people are wrong about their subjective opinions then I'm completely lost. I should have known better.
It's okay. I just haven't got the slightest idea what you are trying to tell me.
Without asking questions or using a metaphore, can you please state your opinion in three sentences or less?
Opinion on what?
Now it makes sense.
Cop-out! Just say it so there's no chance for me to do it wrong.
Wrong is subjective!!
Brandon, that's what I'm meant to voice my opinion on? This answer is based on that assumption:
"Wrong" is subject to reality (or, if you prefer, truth.)
Where's my video, dude? You had your Wendy's Baconator or whatever for lunch and you come back with nothing? You're killin' me.
Just show Howie some nipple J.Y. and all this will go away.
Lol x 2
I'm serious about the phone. Buy me one and I'll bust it out. Bus-station philosophy!
Not really. But I actually don't have the means to record video of myself talking to people and then upload it.